Is someone within their rights to move you out of a prebooked seat?

oxygen

As the title suggest is someone within their rights to move you out of a prebooked seat?

I have seen the scenario below several times, its happened to me once...

- 10 minutes before the train departing a person sits in a seat with no indicator on that it is pre-booked.
- 5 minutes before the train departing the indicator comes on with the persons name who booked the seat.
- 1 minutes before or at time of departure the person who book the seat comes and request that person get out of their seat.

Now, I got out of the seat, thinking fair enough, but if you look at the "Passenger's Charter" > "Conditions of Travel" > "Section E" > 43.6

"Passengers at terminal stations who wish to claim their reserved seats must
be available for boarding at least twenty minutes prior to the advertised
departure time of the train."

I do not blame the person who booked the seat, or the person who unknowingly sat down in a prebooked seat, the fault lies solely at Irish Rails inadequate implementation of this booking feature.

As an annual ticket holder, it seems a bit unfair that I have to give up my seat to someone when I dont have the option of prebooking seats or knowing that this seat was booked in advance of sitting down. More often than not those trains are standing room only by the time the person who booked the seat arrives.

Also those prebooked seats often seem to be not taken up by the person who booked them. When you book a ticket you can choose "Manual Selection" or "Automatic Selection". If you choose "Automatic Selection" this is like waiving any interest in a prebooked seat. When that person gets on the train, their likely to sit at the first available seat. However there is a seat prebooked for them with their name on it. (Please correct me if I'm wrong on above)

aodh_rua

oxygen wrote: »

As the title suggest is someone within their rights to move you out of a prebooked seat?

I have seen the scenario below several times, its happened to me once...

- 10 minutes before the train departing a person sits in a seat with no indicator on that it is pre-booked.
- 5 minutes before the train departing the indicator comes on with the persons name who booked the seat.
- 1 minutes before or at time of departure the person who book the seat comes and request that person get out of their seat.

Now, I got out of the seat, thinking fair enough, but if you look at the "Passenger's Charter" > "Conditions of Travel" > "Section E" > 43.6

"Passengers at terminal stations who wish to claim their reserved seats must
be available for boarding at least twenty minutes prior to the advertised
departure time of the train."

I do not blame the person who booked the seat, or the person who unknowingly sat down in a prebooked seat, the fault lies solely at Irish Rails inadequate implementation of this booking feature.

As an annual ticket holder, it seems a bit unfair that I have to give up my seat to someone when I dont have the option of prebooking seats or knowing that this seat was booked in advance of sitting down. More often than not those trains are standing room only by the time the person who booked the seat arrives.

Also those prebooked seats often seem to be not taken up by the person who booked them. When you book a ticket you can choose "Manual Selection" or "Automatic Selection". If you choose "Automatic Selection" this is like waiving any interest in a prebooked seat. When that person gets on the train, their likely to sit at the first available seat. However there is a seat prebooked for them with their name on it. (Please correct me if I'm wrong on above)

I was about 20 minutes early for the 17:30 from Heuston last week, so I got a seat. By 17:20 it was standing room only, and at 17:25 someone with a prebooked seat boarded with my seat on their ticket. Due to a malfunction on board, none of the seat indicators were lit. The other passenger was elderly, so I would have given up the seat anyway, but I wondered where my rights were if it had have been someone capable of standing.

mollygreene

Yes.

Dyr

You can thank Irish rail for this particular fustercluck, their reservation displays are a shambles

Odyssey 2005

If I chose an unreserved seat within 20 mins of a trains departure and it was subsequently flagged reserved,the person who booked it would be left standing.
That's an absolute bonkers system !!.

Kristopherus

Odyssey 2005 wrote: »

If I chose an unreserved seat within 20 mins of a trains departure and it was subsequently flagged reserved,the person who booked it would be left standing.
That's an absolute bonkers system !!.

So you'd take it out on the pre-booked customer. That's great logic.:D

Skedaddle

It's because of things like this that I no longer bother to take the train.

I turned up several times on the Cork-Dublin train and there was someone in my seat and I ended up having to go searching for one.

The net result: I haven't used an Irish Rail train in about 4 years and frankly I don't miss them.

trellheim

You can thank Irish rail for this particular fustercluck, their reservation displays are a shambles

and have been since the start, which they do little to solve.

Odyssey 2005

Kristopherus wrote: »

So you'd take it out on the pre-booked customer. That's great logic.:D

Why would I do that. ?I'd refuse to move and an inspector would be called. Not the other parties fault,but it's not mine either.

lawred2

oxygen wrote: »

As the title suggest is someone within their rights to move you out of a prebooked seat?

I have seen the scenario below several times, its happened to me once...

- 10 minutes before the train departing a person sits in a seat with no indicator on that it is pre-booked.
- 5 minutes before the train departing the indicator comes on with the persons name who booked the seat.
- 1 minutes before or at time of departure the person who book the seat comes and request that person get out of their seat.

Now, I got out of the seat, thinking fair enough, but if you look at the "Passenger's Charter" > "Conditions of Travel" > "Section E" > 43.6

"Passengers at terminal stations who wish to claim their reserved seats must
be available for boarding at least twenty minutes prior to the advertised
departure time of the train."

I do not blame the person who booked the seat, or the person who unknowingly sat down in a prebooked seat, the fault lies solely at Irish Rails inadequate implementation of this booking feature.

As an annual ticket holder, it seems a bit unfair that I have to give up my seat to someone when I dont have the option of prebooking seats or knowing that this seat was booked in advance of sitting down. More often than not those trains are standing room only by the time the person who booked the seat arrives.

Also those prebooked seats often seem to be not taken up by the person who booked them. When you book a ticket you can choose "Manual Selection" or "Automatic Selection". If you choose "Automatic Selection" this is like waiving any interest in a prebooked seat. When that person gets on the train, their likely to sit at the first available seat. However there is a seat prebooked for them with their name on it. (Please correct me if I'm wrong on above)

It's their seat. They went to the bother of booking it.

So yeah.

Is this a serious question?

Tenigate

lawred2 wrote: »

It's their seat. They went to the bother of booking it.

The paragraph the op quoted states the reservation is only valid if the customer turns up 20 minutes before departure. That's fair.

lawred2

Tenigate wrote: »

The paragraph the op quoted states the reservation is only valid if the customer turns up 20 minutes before departure. That's fair.

must be available for boarding...

says nothing about 'must claim your seat'...

how can you prove that someone wasn't available for boarding?

It's a bit vague really. Probably deliberately so given that it's IR.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Prebooked seats should be displayed as soon as the train has entered the terminal. If nobody shows up when the train begins it's journey, then that's tough, but the current system is a complete joke. What if you booked a seat and were on time, yet some other fellow feels hard done by and doesn't give up the seat?

The Moldy Gowl

Odyssey 2005 wrote: »

Why would I do that. ?I'd refuse to move and an inspector would be called. Not the other parties fault,but it's not mine either.

I'll just sit on your lap or the table so.

evolving_doors

lawred2 wrote: »

must be available for boarding...

says nothing about 'must claim your seat'...

how can you prove that someone wasn't available for boarding?

It's a bit vague really. Probably deliberately so given that it's IR.

Available for boarding is the nub.
That means the guy could be mooching around outside and 'be available' (especially if there's a queue for 30 mins).
Are you gonna get the guy to provide proof that he 'was available' and have a battle of wits while the train is pulling off?
The system is a shambles.
Just pre-book if you can.

uck51js9zml2yt

A friend has free travel and is able to prebook a seat.
I cant see how an annual ticket holder cant do the same.

Tenigate

Elsa Wooden Mustang wrote: »

A friend has free travel and is able to prebook a seat.
I cant see how an annual ticket holder cant do the same.

They can, for an additional fee.

goingnowhere

But if you join mid journey then?

Corca Baiscinn

Better luck here: I took 4 intercity trains last week (2 routes) and in all 4 cases the seat reservations were in place when I boarded even though in one case I was haf an hour early. For the 4th trip I boarded at the last minute and as it was an earlier train than I had booked I had no reservation and was looking for a seat on a busy Fri eve train. Someone pointed out that one seat was only booked from the next station and as they were getting out then anyway I could have the booked seat and then switch to hers. Then a man came along to ask if another empty booked seat was mine, so he was checking before he took it.

OP suggested people who use the automatic seat allocation system may not bother searching for their pre-assigned seat. Another factor is that with a semi-flexible ticket you can take the train before or after your booked one and with a flexible ticket any train that day but afaik there's no way of unbooking your seat on the other train so name may be up and you're a no show.

EricPraline

Bambi wrote: »

You can thank Irish rail for this particular fustercluck, their reservation displays are a shambles

The time it has taken to address this constant issue is equally shambolic. The situation that the OP describes essentially pits paying passengers against each other, and generally makes rail travel a less pleasant experience for everyone. I wonder how this is reflected in TFI's recent survey that "9 out of 10 passengers are satisfied with public transport service"...

Hilly Bill

Skedaddle wrote: »

It's because of things like this that I no longer bother to take the train.

I turned up several times on the Cork-Dublin train and there was someone in my seat and I ended up having to go searching for one.

The net result: I haven't used an Irish Rail train in about 4 years and frankly I don't miss them.

Some will ignore the names anyway so just ask them to move. It's a case of being a man or a mouse.

Hilly Bill

Odyssey 2005 wrote: »

Why would I do that. ?I'd refuse to move and an inspector would be called. Not the other parties fault,but it's not mine either.

It's just a lack of common decency.

TherapyBoy

Is there a minimum amount of time before the train leaves where I can pre-book a seat. If I get on the train 5 minutes before departure & all the seats are taken can I go online & pre-book a seat then?

cml387

Ah yes, my old bugbear.
The last time I travelled there was someone sitting in my seat. He pointed to his ears to indicate he was deaf(?).
Anyway it wasn't busy and at least I could still sit beside my other half and nobody bothered us from Thurles to Dublin... including the ticket inspector who was nowhere to be seen all the way to Dublin.
As it happened my ticket wouldn't work the automatic barrier (that was my fault, a magnetic clasp in my phone probably wiped the magnetic strip) so I went to the barrier. No glance at my ticket, I was just waved through.

So IE staff couldn't be bothered to either enforce seating allocations or check for valid tickets on that particular day. Maybe that was an exception.

uck51js9zml2yt

Tenigate wrote: »

They can, for an additional fee.

So what's the op's problem then?
He chose not to pay and others chose to pay. Why shouldn't they have use of the seat they paid for!

Jamie2k9

goingnowhere wrote: »

But if you join mid journey then?

It will say Reserved from x station and name will appear at that station.

velo.2010

Rarely travel on a train. First time in years, last summer, when I travelled with a bike down to Waterford. Booked to go down to Killarney next month, again with the bike.

Didn't book seats for Kiilarney but did confirm the bike. Checked the email confirmation and I've been given seat numbers for all four journeys. I don't fancy being in a different carriage to my nice road bike. Would the seats have been allocated with my checked bike in mind?

Jamie2k9

velo.2010 wrote: »

Rarely travel on a train. First time in years, last summer, when I travelled with a bike down to Waterford. Booked to go down to Killarney next month, again with the bike.

Didn't book seats for Kiilarney but did confirm the bike. Checked the email confirmation and I've been given seat numbers for all four journeys. I don't fancy being in a different carriage to my nice road bike. Would the seats have been allocated with my checked bike in mind?

If you changing at Mallow, most of those trains mean the bike is kept in the DVT (control car away from all passengers) as far as Mallow and after that you can move seats on the Killarney connection because it won't be as packed. Usually Coach D where bike rack on the connection is from Mallow.

velo.2010

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

If you changing at Mallow, most of those trains mean the bike is kept in the DVT (control car away from all passengers) as far as Mallow and after that you can move seats on the Killarney connection because it won't be as packed. Usually Coach D where bike rack on the connection is from Mallow.

DVT! So we head down to Mallow on the Cork Intercity? I didn't cop that at all.

Marked down for Coach D on the outward connection and Coach C on the return connection.

Jamie2k9

velo.2010 wrote: »

DVT! So we head down to Mallow on the Cork Intercity? I didn't cop that at all.

Marked down for Coach D on the outward connection and Coach C on the return connection.

Yeah the only direct service is at 17.00 (8.30/19.05 Sunday), the rest are Cork trains and change at Mallow.

Could be a 3 car on the return hence why its Coach C. What time is return at?

velo.2010

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Could be a 3 car on the return hence why its Coach C. What time is return at?

9.39am. If its, as you say, less busy on the connection then there shouldn't be a problem. It's midweek too.

Jamie2k9

velo.2010 wrote: »

9.39am. If its, as you say, less busy on the connection then there shouldn't be a problem. It's midweek too.

Mid week you will have no problem sitting in the same coach as the bike which will again be D as far as Mallow.

PARlance

TherapyBoy wrote: »

Is there a minimum amount of time before the train leaves where I can pre-book a seat. If I get on the train 5 minutes before departure & all the seats are taken can I go online & pre-book a seat then?

Online bookings cease an hour before departure iirc.

Ursummupet

PARlance wrote: »

Online bookings cease an hour before departure iirc.

They don't cease. I think it's 39.99.

The .99 makes it a bargain.

Jamie2k9

Ursummupet wrote: »

They don't cease. I think it's 39.99.

The .99 makes it a bargain.

No online tickets will be sold 90 minutes before departure of a particular service.

Klonker

Around 4 years ago I sent an email to Irish Rail complaining that no names were displayed for pre-booked seats. Got a response along the lines of when a train is/is expected to be very busy they switch them off. Well that's the f#cking time you need to book a seat!

Anyway I think they still do this on purpose, they'll say it's a fault on that particular train if you complain but I don't believe them.

madmaggie

I reserved a seat a few times, and what I don't like is having my name up there for all the world to see. One time some young lads, kept saying "hi Maggie, nice day Maggie, howya doing Maggie" over and over. Now it was all good natured fun, no malice at all, but I would prefer a reservation number.

Jamie2k9

madmaggie wrote: »

I reserved a seat a few times, and what I don't like is having my name up there for all the world to see. One time some young lads, kept saying "hi Maggie, nice day Maggie, howya doing Maggie" over and over. Now it was all good natured fun, no malice at all, but I would prefer a reservation number.

Option has been introduced after a complaint around Data Protection.

howiya

goingnowhere wrote: »

But if you join mid journey then?

I regularly join the train to Dublin mid journey at Thurles and bar unforeseen journeys would have a seat booked. To date I haven't had a problem. Name is above the seat and nobody has sat in it. Maybe I've been lucky but no complaints so far

Jim Gazebo

I can't believe people actually debate this kind of stuff. I mean, if I book a seat its usually for a reason, I don't want to be left without a seat going on a long journey, or I need the table for work in a 4 seater. If I don't need it I don't book it. So why would I then deny some one who bothered to book it, the seat I've sat in? It doesn't matter about the rules to be honest. I would think someone who refused to move was just being a complete ***** if I'm honest.

LuckyLloyd

My seat number is on my ticket. I’d be taking my seat which I paid for.

Hilly Bill

Klonker wrote: »

Around 4 years ago I sent an email to Irish Rail complaining that no names were displayed for pre-booked seats. Got a response along the lines of when a train is/is expected to be very busy they switch them off. Well that's the f#cking time you need to book a seat!

Anyway I think they still do this on purpose, they'll say it's a fault on that particular train if you complain but I don't believe them.

That's bull that they switch them off.

PeterParker957

I've yet to have a satisfactory answer as to why someone who gets to travel for free gets a guaranteed seat and someone - me - who pays E4,050 for travel does not, unless prepared to pay even more.

Under no logic is that right.

schemingbohemia

PeterParker957 wrote: »

I've yet to have a satisfactory answer as to why someone who gets to travel for free gets a guaranteed seat and someone - me - who pays E4,050 for travel does not, unless prepared to pay even more.

Under no logic is that right.

They don't, they have to pay a fiver for a seat same as yourself.

Hilly Bill

schemingbohemia wrote: »

They don't, they have to pay a fiver for a seat same as yourself.

I think just because they have paid at a discount in advance for the year, they think it gives them first dips on the seats.

Hilly Bill

PeterParker957 wrote: »

I've yet to have a satisfactory answer as to why someone who gets to travel for free gets a guaranteed seat and someone - me - who pays E4,050 for travel does not, unless prepared to pay even more.

Under no logic is that right.

Under what logic should you get a seat ahead of someone that's reserved one?

dr.fuzzenstein

PeterParker957 wrote: »

I've yet to have a satisfactory answer as to why someone who gets to travel for free gets a guaranteed seat and someone - me - who pays E4,050 for travel does not, unless prepared to pay even more.

Under no logic is that right.

One day you will be the one traveling for free and some jumped up young buck in your seat will say the exact same thing to you.

trellheim

I'm on the 14:25 from Cork to Heuston while typing this.

It is rammed full but reservations are up on the signage and everything seems to be going ok.
( apart from some fkhead smoking from Mallow to LJ )

lorcand1990

Tenigate wrote: »

The paragraph the op quoted states the reservation is only valid if the customer turns up 20 minutes before departure. That's fair.

Also brings up the issue about someone who has prebooked a seat from a station midway through a trains journey

Hypothetically, say I book a seat going from Athy to Heuston. That train has started in Waterford & may well have someone sitting in the seat I prebooked by the time the train reaches me. What happens in that case as clearly I can't board before Athy to claim the seat?

zetalambda

If someone is sitting in your pre-booked seat and refuse to move, sit on their lap. I haven't had to do it yet but i've seen other people on boards say it effective!

Tar.Aldarion

It's always really stupid when somebody turns up early, there are no seats assigned so they sit down, the train fills completely and then the indicator comes on so they have to stand instead of all the other people who arrived later without a reservation and happened to luckily pick an unassigned seat.