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Israel attacks Syria

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    #122
    Chrongen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭Chrongen


    Cheerful Spring wrote: »
    MOSCOW — Four Russian nationals, and perhaps dozens more, were killed in fighting between pro-government forces in eastern Syria and members of the United States-led coalition fighting the Islamic State, according to Russian and Syrian officials.

    A Syrian military officer said that about 100 Syrian soldiers had been killed in the fighting on Feb. 7 and 8, but news about Russian casualties has dribbled out only slowly, through Russian news organizations and social media.

    Much about the attack and the associated casualties has been obscured in the fog of war. For reasons that remain unclear, Syrian government troops and some Russian nationals appear to have attacked a coalition position, near Al Tabiyeh, Syria.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/13/world/europe/russia-syria-dead.html

    If this is real US forces just killed dozens of Russian soldiers or mercenaries in Syria. I have heard online the number could be over 100 to 200.

    Was there a cover-up till now to avoid escalation? This could explain why the Iranian drone was given the go-ahead to fly over Isreal.


    Or a fabrication.


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    #123
    Chrongen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭Chrongen


    Gatling wrote: »
    A copy that wasn't stealth which means ,they copied a design that's been around 70+ years and that's all ,

    Stealth isn't just a wing shape ,

    Might be time just to move on.

    In China you can buy a copy of top of the range phone to a rolls Royce ,

    But neither are a top of the range phone or rolls Royce .

    70+ years?

    What have they copied, a German doodlebug?


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    #124
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Chrongen wrote: »
    70+ years?

    What have they copied, a German doodlebug?

    A flying wing,

    What did you say you did again
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




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    #125
    Cheerful Spring
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,893 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring


    Gatling wrote: »
    A copy that wasn't stealth which means ,they copied a design that's been around 70+ years and that's all ,

    Stealth isn't just a wing shape ,

    Might be time just to move on.

    In China you can buy a copy of top of the range phone to a rolls Royce ,

    But neither are a top of the range phone or rolls Royce .

    Please stop. Israel said it was a copy of the Stealth drone RQ-170. They specifically mention the RQ170. Iran has numerous drones that are not stealth, yet Isreal military said it was back-engineered RQ-170.

    Reported by the Israeli press.
    The Iranian drone shot down by the Israeli Air Force early Saturday morning appears to have been a relatively new stealth model whose design was stolen from an American unmanned aerial vehicle that was captured by Iran in 2011, according to aviation analysts.

    Gatling I think aviation analysts, Isreal military, US officials even media are more informed about this topic than you?


    Anyway the news out today of Russian mercenaries got killed by US forces, is interesting. There something happening behind the scenes the public not privy to.

    Two to three now weeks we have a downing of Russian fighter jet ( probably downed by US weapons. Killing of Russians when Syria and Hezbollah and the US are fighting ( dangerous escalation) this probably greatest loss of life for the Russian state since the cold war. Iran sending a stealth drone to Israel to spy. Russians open up and shot down the Isreali jet. This scary stuff I wonder how they handling this behind the scenes at the White House and Kremlin?


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    #126
    Chrongen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭Chrongen


    Gatling wrote: »
    Simple ,cheap , affordable ,no development costs and no great loss when they get shot down or lost ,
    Needs very little training and very little risk to the operator's

    We're not talking about dropping a mobile phone or a bag of heroin a few hundred feet over the wall into Mountjoy, here.

    What possible military advantage would a bloody toy drone have carrying a grenade that couldn't be accomplished with a guy with a mortar?

    Are you serious?

    Ridiculous, and uselaess. So your drone hovers over a "target", you have spent time trying to have the thing pull the pin on a grenade and then drop it. Are you living in the real world?

    So you would favour this retarded method of attacking a target from maybe 5 miles away with absolutely zero chance of any success other than perhaps in the mind of M in Bond movies?


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    #127
    nacho libre
    Registered Users Posts: 16,638 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    Cheerful Spring wrote: »
    Why do you continue to deny this? Isreal said the drone was a copy of the Stealth drone that was captured in 2011. You need to stop talking about Iran. They're denying the lost a drone, never mind losing a drone with stealth.

    The Iranian do exaggerate their capabilities, and could well be lying in this case, but Gatling will be quicker to be suspicious of an Iranian and Russian narrative, than an Amerian or Israeli one. An impartial observer would be suspicious of them all.


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    #128
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    Chrongen wrote: »
    Drones carrying "grenades"?

    What would be the purpose of this when a mobile mortars or artillery would do the same thing? Who would tie a grenade to an off the shelf drone that has a range of maybe 5 kilometres and a flight/battery life of 25 minutes?

    Why would anyone do that?

    Improvised explosives on a drone? Why? That makes ZERO sense.

    Have you seen a DJI Mavic Pro?
    You can literally collapse it up and fit it in your pocket.
    (Granted they wouldnt carry much...but...)
    Take something a bit stronger and stick some c4 on it, and fly it in the window of a building , down stairs etc.. Ultimate in portable smart bomb for relatively peanuts. Theres also the reconnaissance bonus of them.
    Aussies are already using them to drop inflatables to swimmers.
    They're changing warfare.


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    #129
    Cheerful Spring
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,893 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring


    Chrongen wrote: »
    Or a fabrication.

    Russia has lost a fighter pilot and according to reports as many as 100 Russian mercenaries got killed 5 days ago. Iran sending is more advanced stealth drone to Israel kind of makes sense now. Iran would have to notify the Russians beforehand of this operation.


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    #130
    Barry Badrinath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,460 ✭✭✭Barry Badrinath


    Chrongen wrote: »
    Really? Well unless it took off from Iran then how on Earth does one determine if it was Iranian? Explain that to me. Maybe you have some really obvious insight that I am just continuing to miss.

    My next question is....if it took off from Syria and it's manufacturer was so easily defineable then it's safe to assume that am aircraft taking of from anywhere in the world can be identified straightaway by its manufacturer/"nationality", no?

    How do you determine who owns it simply by its point of takeoff?

    Someone originally that a drone's owner can be determined by a radar signature and now your story is drifting from that stating that it's owner can be determined by the takeoff source.

    Which is it?

    This all seems to be out of your grasp. Its not a singular event that led to it being labelled as an Iranian drone, its a multitude of things, when put together and an 7assesment is formed.

    Firstly, you need to accept that Israel is quite adept at designing and manufacturing drones. Their miltary train other militaries on how to operate drones. They are experts in this field.

    Secondly, Israel utilises various sophisticated air defence systems, the Iron Dome, Davids Sling and the Arrow. These systems are designed to detect, track, identify, predict trajectory and intercept aircraft (including drones) and ballistic missiles.

    Now, lets specifically talk about the Iron Dome which is deployed in various parts of Israel. The Multi-Mission Radar is the fancy bit of tech that can detect aircraft or missile launches up to a range of 470km away. Now, Haifa to Palmyra is only 180km away as the crow flys and well within range.

    1. Israel have the technology to detect, track, identify aircraft and missiles up to 470km away.
    2. Palmyra is 180km away.
    3. It is widely known that Russia, Syrian, Iranian and Hezbollah forces are stationed and use Palymra T4 Airbase.
    4. If something is launched from there, it belongs to one of the four above.
    5. Deduction time for the Israelis. Is it Hezbollah? Unlikely, Lebanon is too fragile for Hezbollah to be risking an invasion over a drone. Is it Syria? No, they have nothing to gain by sending a drone towards Israel. Is it Russia, maybe, but again theres no motivation to do so but it cant be discounted.

    Who is left?...Iran. Yes, Israel is threatened by Iran for many reasons. Iran is the most likely of the four actors to launch a surveillance drone.

    What do Israel do? They do nothing until the drones mission becomes clear. Israel dont launch their usual Patriot missile to blow it up. They wait until it gets closer until they can get video confirmation of the drone. They get it and take it out. Then report it as being Iranian as it suits their agenda. Who really knows if it is actually Iranian or not....none of us anyway.

    Either way, Israel are using it for political points to demonstrate that they are a target for Iran and Irans influence must be stopped and Iranian presence in Syria must be kept at a distance from Israel.

    The timeline also correlates to the 39th anniversary of Iran's Islamic Revolution. It is plausable that the drone surveillance footage would have been shown as a PR / morale boost for Iran. As in, "look at our regional footprint, we can get to the doorstep of Israel and travel the length of the US backed Jordan border without confrontation...we own the Middle East".

    Basically, it comes down to 3 different things.

    1. Prior battlefield intelligence.
    2. Deduction and probability.
    3. Political and military agenda.

    I know this is not the solid answer you wanted but its not just about immediately identiying a blip on a screen.


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    #131
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,153 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Chrongen wrote: »
    Really? Well unless it took off from Iran then how on Earth does one determine if it was Iranian? Explain that to me. Maybe you have some really obvious insight that I am just continuing to miss.

    My next question is....if it took off from Syria and it's manufacturer was so easily defineable then it's safe to assume that am aircraft taking of from anywhere in the world can be identified straightaway by its manufacturer/"nationality", no?

    How do you determine who owns it simply by its point of takeoff?

    Someone originally that a drone's owner can be determined by a radar signature and now your story is drifting from that stating that it's owner can be determined by the takeoff source.

    Which is it?

    you are just determined to be as obtuse as possible. best of luck with that.


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    #132
    Cheerful Spring
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,893 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring


    nacho libre wrote: »
    The Iranian do exaggerate their capabilities, and could well be lying in this case, but Gatling will be quicker to be suspicious of an Iranian and Russian narrative, than an Amerian or Israeli one. An impartial observer would be suspicious of them all.

    The problem with that analysis in Iran not claiming they send a Stealth drone to Israel. Israelis and American officials said it.


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    #133
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Cheerful Spring wrote: »
    Please stop. Israel said it was a copy of the Stealth drone RQ-170.

    Gatling I think aviation analysts, Isreal military, US officials

    Russians open up and shot down the Isreali jet. This scary stuff I wonder how they handling this behind the scenes at the White House and Kremlin?

    All agree it's a copy of an American design ,

    It's not stealth or anything like it ,

    Otherwise Israel would never have been able to track it from take off ,

    And all russian military casualties and deaths are classified information under law in Russia and have been for a number of years ,


    Russia won't shoot down any Israeli aircraft the consequences would be dire for their forces in Syria
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




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    #134
    Barry Badrinath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,460 ✭✭✭Barry Badrinath


    Chrongen wrote: »
    Drones carrying "grenades"?

    What would be the purpose of this when a mobile mortars or artillery would do the same thing? Who would tie a grenade to an off the shelf drone that has a range of maybe 5 kilometres and a flight/battery life of 25 minutes?

    Why would anyone do that?

    Improvised explosives on a drone? Why? That makes ZERO sense.

    Im sorry but are you on a wind up now?

    Improvised weaponised drones are much cheaper and portable than mortars or light artillery. It enables infantry troops, fighting unconventional and urban warfare to have an ace in the sleeve.

    With mortars and artillery you need sufficient logistics, training and supply. Its not always possible to have, especially if you are part of a local tribe who is fighting in a conflict that it never asked for.

    Not all groups in Syria have formal military training or support. Thats why these "DIY" tactics are adopted.


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    #135
    Cheerful Spring
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,893 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring


    Gatling wrote: »
    All agree it's a copy of an American design ,

    It's not stealth or anything like it ,

    Otherwise Israel would never have been able to track it from take off ,

    And all russian military casualties and deaths are classified information under law in Russia and have been for a number of years ,


    Russia won't shoot down any Israeli aircraft the consequences would be dire for their forces in Syria

    How the Iranians track the R-170 Stealth drone in 2011 and capture it? Did the Iranians track it from Afghanistan, and how they know it was even there? On the ground intelligence ever hear of that? Could Isreali spies penetrate the groups they are fighting and got information about the drone flight and where it would be? Maybe there is a new weapon platform that can detect a Stealth drone and Israelis have it?

    We disagree who fired the missiles that brought down the jet. What we do know is missiles are Russian made and missiles allegedly got fired from Khmeimim Air Base. This base jointly shared by the Syrians but Russian controlled. So it highly unlikely the Syrian engaged and the Russians would not know about this?

    Regarding the Russian deaths. This NY times report they are going to check their sources are correct before publishing a story.


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    #136
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,153 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Cheerful Spring wrote: »
    How the Iranians track the R-170 Stealth drone in 2011 and capture it? Did the Iranians track it from Afghanistan, and how they know it was even there? On the ground intelligence ever hear of that? Could Isreali spies penetrate the groups they are fighting and got about the drone flight and where it would be? Maybe there is a new weapon platform that can detect a Stealth drone and Israelis have it?

    We disagree who fired the missiles that brought down the jet. What we do know is missiles are Russian made and missiles allegedly got fired from Khmeimim Air Base. This base jointly d by the Syrians but Russian controlled. So it highly unlikely the Syrian engaged and the Russians would not know about this?

    Regarding the Russian deaths. This NY times report they are going to check their sources are correct before publishing a story.
    The design lacks several elements common to stealth engineering such as zig-zag edged landing gear doors and sharp leading edges, and the exhaust is not shielded by the wing

    it doesn't sound terribly stealthy.


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    #137
    Cheerful Spring
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,893 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    it doesn't sound terribly stealthy.

    Can I have the source for this quote?


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    #138
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Cheerful Spring wrote: »

    Regarding the Russian deaths. This NY times report they are going to check their sources are correct before publishing a story.

    Putin passed a laws to hide military casualties overseas including the several thousand they lost in Ukraine where they had secret funerals for russian soldiers and tell the families their Sons and husband's are on a secret training mission in Siberia ,
    The first soldier killed in combat in Syria in Russian uniform was explained away as a suiscide ,
    Anything gets out they will claim they are not soldiers but paid Mercenaries ,
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




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    #139
    Cheerful Spring
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,893 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring


    Gatling wrote: »
    Putin passed a laws to hide military casualties overseas including the several thousand they lost in Ukraine where they had secret funerals for russian soldiers and tell the families their Sons and husband's are on a secret training mission in Siberia ,
    The first soldier killed in combat in Syria in Russian uniform was explained away as a suiscide ,
    Anything gets out they will claim they are not soldiers but paid Mercenaries ,

    I don't disagree with this. Americans are doing the same thing, maybe not as secretive.


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    #140
    nacho libre
    Registered Users Posts: 16,638 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    Cheerful Spring wrote: »
    The problem with that analysis in Iran not claiming they send a Stealth drone to Israel. Israelis and American officials said it.


    If it was a stealth aircraft, then the Israelis would not have been able to detect it. Unless they have developed technology that can actually now detect supposedly stealth aircraft? Is this what you are getting at?


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    #141
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,153 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Cheerful Spring wrote: »
    Can I have the source for this quote?

    whats the point? You will just ignore it as you usually do.


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    #142
    Cheerful Spring
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,893 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring


    nacho libre wrote: »
    If it was a stealth aircraft, then the Israelis would not have been able to detect it. Unless they have developed technology that can actually now detect supposedly stealth aircraft? Is this what you are getting at?

    Iranians captured a stealth drone in 2011. What would stop the Israelis from doing the same thing in 2018?


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    #143
    nacho libre
    Registered Users Posts: 16,638 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    Gatling wrote: »
    d in combat in Syria in Russian uniform was explained away as a suiscide ,
    Anything gets out they will claim they are not soldiers but paid Mercenaries ,

    Of course because it helps him avoid looking weak, which would destroy his macho image, because if he acknowledges that a 100 - 200 Russian soliders were killed by the American Army the pressure is on to strike back, there by risking an even greater escalation from the other side.

    It all just shows the notion of the menacing Russian bear, that has designs on invading all his neighbours, as hysterical propaganda. The last thing Vladmir Putin wants is a direct confrontation with the Americans.


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    #144
    Cheerful Spring
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,893 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    whats the point? You will just ignore it as you usually do.

    If you found a quote that will show the Iranian drone was not stealth post the source.


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    #145
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,153 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Cheerful Spring wrote: »
    If you found a quote that will show the Iranian drone was not stealth post the source.

    I'll happily pm it to anybody who is generally interested.


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    #146
    nacho libre
    Registered Users Posts: 16,638 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    Cheerful Spring wrote: »
    Iranians captured a stealth drone in 2011. What would stop the Israelis from doing the same thing in 2018?

    I thought that drone crashed due to a malfunction- maybe though that was a lie from Gatling's friends:D. If it was indeed detected by the Iranians and brought down, then your assertion could well be correct.


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    #147
    Gringo180
    Registered Users Posts: 9,205 ✭✭✭Gringo180


    nacho libre wrote: »
    Of course because it helps him avoid looking weak, which would destry his macho image, because if he acknowledges that a 100 - 200 Russian soliders were killed by the American Army the pressure is on to strike back, there by risking an even greater escalation from the other side.

    It all just shows the notion of the menacing Russian bear that has designs on invading all his neighbours as hysterical propaganda. The last thing Vladmir Putin wants is a direct confrontation with the Americans.

    But what would NATO do without all that hysterical propaganda? They need a bad guy to continue surrounding Russia.


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    #148
    Gringo180
    Registered Users Posts: 9,205 ✭✭✭Gringo180


    nacho libre wrote: »
    I thought that drone crashed due to a malfunction- maybe though that was a lie from Gatling's friends:D. If it was indeed detected by the Iranians and brought down, then your assertion could well be correct.

    The Iranians safely landed the drone. If it was shot down it would of been totally destroyed so why would the Americans request it to be returned to them.


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    #149
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Gringo180 wrote: »
    But what would NATO do without all that hysterical propaganda? They need a bad guy to continue surrounding Russia.

    But there not unfortunately
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




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    #150
    Cheerful Spring
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,893 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring


    nacho libre wrote: »
    I thought that drone crashed due to a malfunction- maybe though that was a lie from Gatling's friends:D. If it was indeed detected by the Iranians and brought down, then your assertion could well be correct.

    Highly unlikely the Iranians captured it intact. A drone falling from the sky would have smashed into different pieces. Stealth only means undetectable to radar it can be spotted in the air still and even heard. If all we know the Isreali helicopter spotted it on a routine mission and opened fire on it?


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    #151
    Gringo180
    Registered Users Posts: 9,205 ✭✭✭Gringo180


    Gatling wrote: »
    But there not unfortunately

    Ah yeah shure its only 5 NATO members that share a border with Russia.


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