Making Confirmation and regular attendance at Mass

Seth Brundle

Bob_Marley wrote: »

This is rubbish, if you decide you're not a catholic and you've left you're not one.

The reality is that the cult hierarchy places an obligation on going to mass...
http://www.catholic365.com/article/2088/does-the-bible-say-that-missing-the-mass-is-a-mortal-sin.html
https://culbreath.wordpress.com/2014/02/12/pope-francis-skipping-mass-and-the-sunday-obligation/
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/amp/news/go-to-mass-on-sunday-and-on-christmas-bishops-say-32938

All of the a la carte Catholics are not compliant and appear to be commiting a mortal sin. But that's ok because the cult wants to recruit your kids.

Hannibal_Smith

Bob_Marley wrote: »

This is rubbish, if you decide you're not a catholic and you've left you're not one.

The church doesn't recognise you as having left, from what I've read. I'm not authority on it. How do you leave the religion?

Crea

Bob_Marley wrote: »

But the fact remains 80% claim they are Catholic, the fact you have a sectarian problem with others, is your problem, not theirs.

The formal process for leaving the Catholic church was simplified in Ireland in recent years, now you don't need one, you simply just decide you've left and at census time put down Jedi keyboard manga SJW, or whatever you're into, just like many people who were once have Catholic done so.

I left the cub scouts years ago, and there was no formal process there either. It doesn't mean I didn't or cannot leave and that I'm a member for ever, that's complete and utter rubbish.

With the Cub scouts you are removed from the register if you are no longer a member.

Seth Brundle

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

The church doesn't recognise you as having left, from what I've read. I'm not authority on it. How do you leave the religion?

Technically, you can't!

suicide_circus

Catholicism is a great gig all the same. You can be an utterly godless bar steward your whole life and then on your death bed make your confession, receive absolution, make your profession of faith, receive the sacraments and then off to heaven.

Mrs OBumble

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

The church doesn't recognise you as having left, from what I've read. I'm not authority on it. How do you leave the religion?

The church also doesn't claim you as a member, because they don't keep a register. The only count is taken by the state using data you provide.


If you stop going they have no idea if you're dead or emigrated or whatever.

nozzferrahhtoo

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

I think you've slightly missed what I'm saying. If they have been baptized etc, they are always a Catholic.

According to the church they are. But I am talking about the census. And the census asks what is YOUR religion. Not what groups might still consider you a member, especially against your will.

It really is a short question on the census. Amazing the amount of confusion a simple question can cause. But it really does just ask "What is your religion?". It has literally NOTHING to do with membership. At all.

If someone asked me what my hobby was, I would not say fishing. ONCE it was fishing, and in fact due to the work I did I was given a life time membership to a certain fishing club. They still consider me a member. I do not. And I would no longer tell anyone when asked "What is your hobby?" That the answer is "fishing". I no longer have any interest in fishing. It simply is not my hobby. Despite who considers me a member of their club.

If I invented a religion, and I claimed anyone I say "blobby blobby" at is automatically a member for life, you would not put down my religion on the Census form.... I assume.... solely because I consider you a member of that religion? Because it is not YOUR religion, no matter how much I hop up and down demanding you recognise you are a member for life.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

None of what you've just written has anything to do with the argument that people who are Roman Catholic who tick Roman Catholic on the census form are either being dishonest or hypocritical because they do not appear to practice the tenets of their professed faith.

Good, because I was not talking about that. I was solely replying to YOUR comment that they are "being honest to identify as Roman Catholic because they are still members of the Roman Catholic Church"

And the point is simply that being a member of the church has nothing to do with the question the census actually asks. The question it ACTUALLY asks has nothing whatsoever to do with memberships.

To take the same point from the other direction, if someone considers themselves a catholic, as in it is THEIR religion, then the church can excommunicate them all it likes. Such a person should STILL put down catholic on the census form.

Odhinn

suicide_circus wrote: »

Catholicism is a great gig all the same. You can be an utterly godless bar steward your whole life and then on your death bed make your confession, receive absolution, make your profession of faith, receive the sacraments and then off to heaven.

Same for all christianity, I think, though without the rites.

Hannibal_Smith

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

The church also doesn't claim you as a member, because they don't keep a register. The only count is taken by the state using data you provide.


If you stop going they have no idea if you're dear or emigrated or whatever.

Is your baptismal cert not evidence of you on a register? The church keep a record of it. They also keep a record of you confirmation and marriage. Isn't the whole point of confirmation that you're confirming your faith?

My parents would consider themselves Catholic, they believe in God etc, but don't attend mass. They'll still get a Catholic funeral though. I think?

Crea

A friend of mine lives in England. Her kids went to a Catholic school where at least one parent and the kids had to be baptised and had to be regular mass goers in order to enrol your child in the school. Communion and confirmation prep was not done at school. It was done by the church in the evenings and on Sundays with parents involved. Out of 25 kids in the class, 8 made their communion.
I could imagine a similar drop off rate here because without the school most parents wouldn't be arsed.

Odhinn

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

Is your baptismal cert not evidence of you on a register? The church keep a record of it. They also keep a record of you confirmation and marriage. Isn't the whole point of confirmation that you're confirming your faith?

My parents would consider themselves Catholic, they believe in God etc, but don't attend mass. They'll still get a Catholic funeral though. I think?

I remember this lot

Over 12,000 of the forms were downloaded from the site, but an official change to canon law in 2009 has made it impossible to formally defect from the church. The Archdiocese of Dublin said that it will maintain a register of those who have expressed an interest in defecting.

However, without the baptismal certificate annotation, the group says that the register is irrelevant.

Paul Dunbar, one of three people who had founded the CountMeOut website, said that trying to find ways around the 2009 decision by Pope Benedict XVI to abolish formal defection was like “repeatedly hitting our head against a brick wall”.

http://www.thejournal.ie/count-me-out-closes-because-of-catholic-church-defection-system-chage-1028259-Aug2013/

Hannibal_Smith

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

According to the church they are. But I am talking about the census. And the census asks what is YOUR religion. Not what groups might still consider you a member, especially against your will.

It really is a short question on the census. Amazing the amount of confusion a simple question can cause. But it really does just ask "What is your religion?". It has literally NOTHING to do with membership. At all.

If someone asked me what my hobby was, I would not say fishing. ONCE it was fishing, and in fact due to the work I did I was given a life time membership to a certain fishing club. They still consider me a member. I do not. And I would no longer tell anyone when asked "What is your hobby?" That the answer is "fishing". I no longer have any interest in fishing. It simply is not my hobby. Despite who considers me a member of their club.

If I invented a religion, and I claimed anyone I say "blobby blobby" at is automatically a member for life, you would not put down my religion on the Census form.... I assume.... solely because I consider you a member of that religion? Because it is not YOUR religion, no matter how much I hop up and down demanding you recognise you are a member for life.



Good, because I was not talking about that. I was solely replying to YOUR comment that they are "being honest to identify as Roman Catholic because they are still members of the Roman Catholic Church"

And the point is simply that being a member of the church has nothing to do with the question the census actually asks. The question it ACTUALLY asks has nothing whatsoever to do with memberships.

To take the same point from the other direction, if someone considers themselves a catholic, as in it is THEIR religion, then the church can excommunicate them all it likes. Such a person should STILL put down catholic on the census form.

There's no confusion here about what the question Is, if you read my post in context If people are in a religion, they believe themselves to still he part of that religion, they tick the relevant form on the census. It works for every other question on the form. If it effects you you answer accordingly.

If there is no leaving the religion, why shouldn't a priest confirm your kid?

nozzferrahhtoo

I am talking about the general confusion, not your post specifically. The idea that membership of a church has ANYTHING to do with the question actually asked on the Census for example is indicative of that confusion. It has literally nothing to do with it.

beauf

Trey Quick Flame wrote: »

A priest in Enniscorthy has said that parents who want their children to make their Confirmation must attend Mass. I think he's right. People taking part in sacraments that are completely meaningless to them seems very hypocritical to me, and insulting to the people to whom they have religious significance....

I don't know why this is news. Priests have always said this. They will only know who is missing in a small parish. In larger parishes they won't know. They might be going to mass in another church.

The only people who seem insulted this by seem to be those with no interest in the religion. If mass attendance is low and falling it would suggest most Catholics are not insulted by it. Maybe you are especially concerned for the devout. If so why??

Nettle Soup

suicide_circus wrote: »

Catholicism is a great gig all the same. You can be an utterly godless bar steward your whole life and then on your death bed make your confession, receive absolution, make your profession of faith, receive the sacraments and then off to heaven.

Allegedly!

No 40 virgins waiting for you though...

When right minded people actually sit down and think about religion, there can be only one conclusion....it's a big scam.

splinter65

Odhinn wrote: »

And if you tick the box in the census but ignore the various strictures about everything from sex to mass attendance?

....then your exercising your entitlement as a citizen of a free society (thank God) to tick any goddamn box you like.
Applies to every single question on the census.

beauf

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

...
If there is no leaving the religion, why shouldn't a priest confirm your kid?

For some bizarre reason I get the impression the church thinks a return to the 1950s mindset is a good idea. consolidate to the devoted and cast off the rest. It's likely to be a disaster which is those who want the church to disintegrate keep pushing this agenda.

splinter65

beauf wrote: »

I don't know why this is news. Priests have always said this. They will only know who is missing in a small parish. In larger parishes they won't know. They might be going to mass in another church.

The only people who seem insulted this by seem to be those with no interest in the religion. If mass attendance is low and falling it would suggest most Catholics are not insulted by it. Maybe you are especially concerned for the devout. If so why??

This is the $64000 question.
Avowed atheists here could win Mastermind with the specialist subject RCC.

Odhinn

splinter65 wrote: »

....then your exercising your entitlement as a citizen of a free society (thank God) to tick any goddamn box you like.
Applies to every single question on the census.

It is dishonest though. Having ones cake and eating it.

splinter65

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

Is your baptismal cert not evidence of you on a register? The church keep a record of it. They also keep a record of you confirmation and marriage. Isn't the whole point of confirmation that you're confirming your faith?

My parents would consider themselves Catholic, they believe in God etc, but don't attend mass. They'll still get a Catholic funeral though. I think?

When you were baptized the details of your baptism were recorded in a register.
The date, your name, your parents names, godparents, name of the priest etc.
It’s a record of an event that happened.
Logically, that record can not be removed or expunged because that would be pretending that the event never took place when.. it actually did.
It’s pretty pointless pretending something that did happen didn’t.
The baptismal register isn’t a list of members. There is no list of members. What would be the point in a list of members?

Seth Brundle

beauf wrote: »

For some bizarre reason I get the impression the church thinks a return to the 1950s mindset is a good idea. consolidate to the devoted and cast off the rest. It's likely to be a disaster which is those who want the church to disintegrate keep pushing this agenda.

In terms of 1950s Ireland, people were less educated and servient to anything Rome or it's employees instructed. Why wouldn't they want a return of the "good old days"?

beauf

Odhinn wrote: »

....It is dishonest though. Having ones cake and eating it.

...Because the history of religion is it never splits or changes over time or to be populist ....

..Monty Python said it better...

beauf

kbannon wrote: »

....
In terms of 1950s Ireland, people were less educated and servient to anything Rome or it's employees instructed. Why wouldn't they want a return of the "good old days"?

...already answered...

beauf

Why does anyone care..school places...

This thread is about nothing else...

splinter65

Odhinn wrote: »

It is dishonest though. Having ones cake and eating it.

Human nature. Was there a question about speaking Irish? Maybe not. But I bet a lot of people who can say “Ta me go maith” when asked “Chonas ata tu?” would tick the box marked “speaks Irish every day”.
Loads of the questions were open to exaggeration and ambiguity.
Even though it was anonymous people’s egos get the better of them.
I think it’s an element of the Abrahamic faiths that even lapsed adherents of many years will tick that box from somewhere deep inside.

Hannibal_Smith

beauf wrote: »

For some bizarre reason I get the impression the church thinks a return to the 1950s mindset is a good idea. consolidate to the devoted and cast off the rest. It's likely to be a disaster which is those who want the church to disintegrate keep pushing this agenda.

Probably. I wonder though whether it is trying to punish the non attending parents through the kids. I know for a wedding you have to get your baptismal and confirmation certs as proof you went through the process, but I don't ever remember hearing a priest refusing to marry a couple because of non attendance? Or having to approve you've attended before being allowed to marry. Same for funerals. Most of my family are non practising, but I don't ever remember anyone having to fight to have a religious ceremony. So why target the childrens' ceremonies?

Hannibal_Smith

splinter65 wrote: »

When you were baptized the details of your baptism were recorded in a register.
The date, your name, your parents names, godparents, name of the priest etc.
It’s a record of an event that happened.
Logically, that record can not be removed or expunged because that would be pretending that the event never took place when.. it actually did.
It’s pretty pointless pretending something that did happen didn’t.
The baptismal register isn’t a list of members. There is no list of members. What would be the point in a list of members?

I never said there should be a list of members But there is a record of your confirmation also, it doesn't stop at baptism. If you want to be married in a church they ask for proof of baptism and confirmation to prove you're a valid member of the organisation, I would imagine? There is no register for people who want to leave Though? Because, it seems you can't? So if, according to the canon laws or whatever, you can't leave, how can a priest not confirm your kid?

splinter65

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

I never said there should be a list of members But there is a record of your confirmation also, it doesn't stop at baptism. If you want to be married in a church they ask for proof of baptism and confirmation to prove you're a valid member of the organisation, I would imagine? There is no register for people who want to leave Though? Because, it seems you can't? So if, according to the canon laws or whatever, you can't leave, how can a priest not confirm your kid?

What would be the point in a register for those who have left/want to leave? What would it be used for?

Odhinn

splinter65 wrote: »

What would be the point in a register for those who have left/want to leave? What would it be used for?

So we could stop hearing about how catholic a country this supposedly is....

Hannibal_Smith

splinter65 wrote: »

What would be the point in a register for those who have left/want to leave? What would it be used for?

Proving people left? If you're saying the baptismal records Mark an event and therefore can't be changed, if they cant be changed why not record people who have left in a list?

I think someone posted a link where this was considered, or at least it was considered to put a note where the baptism was recorded, but it was never followed up on. I can't find it now because I'm in the reply box and I'm not deleting all this to go back a page :pac: