Making Confirmation and regular attendance at Mass

splinter65

Crea wrote: »

You can officially leave the church in other countries. You used to be able to do it here but the church stopped it.

Once again all you have to do to leave the church is stop going. Stop ticking the RC box on things. Just stop. There are over 1 billion other Catholics and rising. It’s cool.

One eyed Jack

Odhinn wrote: »

It's been co-opted by the church. Now they're gradually going to be taken by the state.

"christian brothers".....Yeah, having that lot in charge of children was a great idea, wasn't it?..They're virtually extinct in this country, thankfully.

Yes, I'd have to suggest that it was a good idea to allow the Christian Brothers to provide education in this country, because I wouldn't be given to jumping to the conclusion that anything other than a minority of them abused some of the young boys in their care.

Odhinn

splinter65 wrote: »

Still called the CBS school. All over the country. Big picture of the founder Edmund Rice outside each of the two schools in our town.
Parents actually pay quite hefty fees to have their sons educated at some of the CBS
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Brothers_College,_Cork

Yes, we never had a programme of Entnazifizierung.

I'd say in time those will be gone too.

one eyed jack wrote:

Yes, I'd have to suggest that it was a good idea to allow the Christian Brothers to provide education in this country, because I wouldn't be given to jumping to the conclusion that anything other than a minority of them abused some of the young boys in their care.

And every other one of them seemed to have turned their backs on that "minority" (a minority numbering in the hundreds
http://www.thejournal.ie/christian-brothers-abuse-1214705-Dec2013/ )
and let them get on with their molesting. They knew what they were at as far back as the 1930's.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/o-brothers-where-art-thou-1.1148238?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fopinion%2Fo-brothers-where-art-thou-1.1148238

And their system of slave labour, which they still seek to hide
https://www.independent.ie/regionals/kerryman/news/christian-brothers-back-down-in-demand-for-glin-school-records-35573953.html

But do continue to defend their sterling work. I can't actually think of the last time somebody tried to do so.

Odhinn

splinter65 wrote: »

Once again all you have to do to leave the church is stop going. Stop ticking the RC box on things. Just stop. There are over 1 billion other Catholics and rising. It’s cool.

Given that you get stamped without much choice in the matter thats hardly suprising. Numbers here are on the decline, and its really only our lovely culture of hardcore hypocrisy that allows them claim adherents in the numbers they do.

Of course you might prove me wrong and show that a country where 67% of women between 15 and 49 use contraception is majority catholic and following the tenents of their faith of choice in an honest manner.......

byhookorbycrook

meeeeh wrote: »

I went to state school with no patronage and my parents were perfectly happy with the values we were taught and with what school did. I don't think patronage is essential at all if you do state curriculum. It might be more important for private schools that decide to do alternative methods of learning.

Presuming this wasn't in Ireland, then?

One eyed Jack

Odhinn wrote: »

Yes, we never had a programme of Entnazifizierung.

I'd say in time those will be gone too.



And every other one of them seemed to have turned their backs on that "minority" (a minority numbering in the hundreds
http://www.thejournal.ie/christian-brothers-abuse-1214705-Dec2013/ )
and let them get on with their molesting. They knew what they were at as far back as the 1930's.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/o-brothers-where-art-thou-1.1148238?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fopinion%2Fo-brothers-where-art-thou-1.1148238

And their system of slave labour, which they still seek to hide
https://www.independent.ie/regionals/kerryman/news/christian-brothers-back-down-in-demand-for-glin-school-records-35573953.html

But do continue to defend their sterling work. I can't actually think of the last time somebody tried to do so.

I'll defend the sterling work of those people who did sterling work to educate young boys in this country. I'm certainly not defending a minority of people in any organisation who abused children if that's what you think I'm doing. I'm just not willing to allow the behaviour of a small minority overshadow the sterling work of the vast majority. I'm not surprised you can't remember the last time anyone tried to defend their work as you're unlikely to be paying attention to anyone who does, not that I particularly feel the need to either tbh as their contribution to Irish society speaks for itself, and the decline in their numbers is simply due to the fact that many of them are dead now, but the schools and the ethos of the Christian Brothers is still going strong, and isn't dying off any time soon.

Odhinn

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I'll defend the sterling work of those people who did sterling work to educate young boys in this country.

O they educated them allright.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I'm certainly not defending a minority of people in any organisation who abused children if that's what you think I'm doing. I'm just not willing to allow the behaviour of a small minority overshadow the sterling work of the vast majority.

A minority. It doesn't appear to be small.

The majority allowed the molestation to go on. The "vast majority" also seemed happy to use the children in their care as a source of wealth. Sterling work indeed. Gone were the days you were sent as indentured labour to australia, instead you went to artane.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I'm not surprised you can't remember the last time anyone tried to defend their work as you're unlikely to be paying attention to anyone who does, not that I particularly feel the need to either tbh as their contribution to Irish society speaks for itself,

Yep, a culture of essentially condoned paedophillia, forced labour, misogyny, violence and rape.
http://www.childabusecommission.ie/rpt/01-06.php

Letterfrack - what a contribution that was.
http://www.childabusecommission.ie/rpt/01-08.php

And Artane, where they made serious money on the childrens labour
http://www.childabusecommission.ie/rpt/01-07.php
yet left the children in need of basics. That's the example of Christ at work, I suppose. Deviates a bit from the vague notion I was taught I have to say.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

and the decline in their numbers is simply due to the fact that many of them are dead now, but the schools and the ethos of the Christian Brothers is still going strong, and isn't dying off any time soon.

An ethos of slave labour, violence and rape?

10 left teaching in 2008 or so. Average age of 70 odd. Their numbers are declining because nobody is replacing them. No-one. They may have members abroad, but here they are a dead thing, for which we should all be thankful.

One eyed Jack

Odhinn wrote: »

They may have members abroad, but here they are a dead thing, for which we should all be thankful.

Yeah look obviously you have whatever issues going on that you think it's acceptable to tar the vast majority of an organisation on the basis of a minority of it's members, and if that's all you've gotten from your education, then I'm far more thankful that you're not in any position to push that sort of 'education' on my child at least.

This is exactly where the whole 'religion has no place in education' argument has to face up to the reality that they are arguing from a minority position, and the very reasoning you're using, is the very same reason that's working against you. As you pointed out earlier in the thread - nobody really gives a shìt, certainly not enough about anyone else that they would prioritise anyone else's children over their own, and that's why even the priest in the OP is going to struggle to get anywhere, because again it's a case of nobody gives a shìt for what he has to say, about anything. That's the real reason why the education system isn't going to change too much any time soon in this country.

Odhinn

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Yeah look obviously you have whatever issues going on that you think it's acceptable to tar the vast majority of an organisation on the basis of a minority of it's members,

The organisation was, much as the rest of the church, complicity in covering up the abuse of its members.

Reported cases involving 350 members between the mid 1950's and mid 1970's alone. 350 reported suspected child molesters in one organisation in a twenty year span. Keep digging.

The whole organisation seems to have been party to brutality and the use of children as labour.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

and if that's all you've gotten from your education, then I'm far more thankful that you're not in any position to push that sort of 'education' on my child at least.

That teaching children isn't beating them, raping them, or using them as a source of income? Jaysus forbid I spread my nonsense.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

This is exactly where the whole 'religion has no place in education' argument has to face up to the reality that they are arguing from a minority position, and the very reasoning you're using, is the very same reason that's working against you. As you pointed out earlier in the thread - nobody really gives a shìt, certainly not enough about anyone else that they would prioritise anyone else's children over their own, and that's why even the priest in the OP is going to struggle to get anywhere, because again it's a case of nobody gives a shìt for what he has to say, about anything. That's the real reason why the education system isn't going to change too much any time soon in this country.

Isn't that a great argument for the strength of faith of your fellow (supposed) believers. And for its moral weight.

BuboBubo

Pete Tong wrote: »

Thanks.
In my opinion, that is the answer. With a Sunday School system and no religion in schools you'd see a sudden drop in bouncy castle Catholics.

"Bouncy Castle Catholics" - brilliant

Extended family already preparing for their oldest sprogs communion. Bouncy castle, kids entertainment (a DJ) and BBQ. Even hiring a minibus to bring the drinkers home.

They don't even go to mass...

VinLieger

VinLieger wrote: »

so is the catholic church going to arrange to give back 90% of primary schools to the state and thus remove the baptism barrier?

I don't think it has ever been a case of them giving 'back' anything to the state. This state will need to buy each and every one of those schools from the private international business that is the Roman Catholic Church which via many organisations remains, in law, the owner of the vast majority of Irish schools. Indeed one could observe that their kindness in allowing the Irish state to use RCC schools for state education purposes has saved the state billions in buying new land and buildings for state schools.

splinter65

Odhinn wrote: »

The organisation was, much as the rest of the church, complicity in covering up the abuse of its members.

Reported cases involving 350 members between the mid 1950's and mid 1970's alone. 350 reported suspected child molesters in one organisation in a twenty year span. Keep digging.

The whole organisation seems to have been party to brutality and the use of children as labour.




That teaching children isn't beating them, raping them, or using them as a source of income? Jaysus forbid I spread my nonsense.



Isn't that a great argument for the strength of faith of your fellow (supposed) believers. And for its moral weight.

I had 13 years of education at the hands of the nuns. I witnessed children being disciplined, as was commonplace all over the world in all denominations at the time, but I never witnessed anyone beaten or raped, and none of my classmates ever witnessed anyone beaten or raped.
Of course I know that children were beaten and raped but I don’t know anyone who was.
So you’ll understand that I’m not going to allow you to say that every single brother priest and nun beat and raped children, as much as you obviously want to insist that it is.
Did Brother Kevin beat and rape? Father McVerry ? SrStan? Duarmuid Martin?
None of the three young priests in our parish have beaten or raped anyone.
None of the nuns on our home care team have beaten or raped anyone.
We must be extraordinarily lucky in our parish.

One eyed Jack

Odhinn wrote: »

Isn't that a great argument for the strength of faith of your fellow (supposed) believers. And for its moral weight.

I'm not making any arguments or claims regarding the veracity of other people's faith though, so I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic there. I'm simply suggesting that it's quite apparent people simply don't care to relate their faith to mass attendance, much less relating the education of their children with all the negatives that you appear to associate with how they choose to have their children educated.

So if attempting to humiliate and shame people into conforming with an ideology hasn't worked in the past, what would make you think that attempting to humiliate and shame people into conforming with an ideology would work now?

eviltwin

My sister was telling me there was a petition going round her school last year demanding the time of the Confirmation be put back a few hours because the hairdressers in the town wouldn't be open. The whole thing is a farce and an insult to the faith. It's just an excuse to get some cash, dress up and go on the piss.

Odhinn

splinter65 wrote: »

I had (..........) as you obviously want to insist that it is.

Where have I said this?

Odhinn

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I'm not making any arguments or claims regarding the veracity of other people's faith though, so I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic there. I'm simply suggesting that it's quite apparent people simply don't care to relate their faith to mass attendance, much less relating the education of their children with all the negatives that you appear to associate with how they choose to have their children educated.

So if attempting to humiliate and shame people into conforming with an ideology hasn't worked in the past, what would make you think that attempting to humiliate and shame people into conforming with an ideology would work now?

Yes, and if they don't care, why should the state facilitate them?

I haven't actually suggested any ideology here at all. Removal of religion from schools is not one, afaik.

wakka12

Well we will see if he still feels the same way when the probably 1 in 20 genuinely religious(and that would be generous number tbh) irish people go for confirmation instead of the usual number

Odhinn

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't think it has ever been a case of them giving 'back' anything to the state. This state will need to buy each and every one of those schools from the private international business that is the Roman Catholic Church which via many organisations remains, in law, the owner of the vast majority of Irish schools. Indeed one could observe that their kindness in allowing the Irish state to use RCC schools for state education purposes has saved the state billions in buying new land and buildings for state schools.

Given the amount they owe and the harm they've done, I doubt kindness has much to do with it.

Odhinn

wakka12 wrote: »

Well we will see if he still feels the same way when the probably 1 in 20 genuinely religious(and that would be generous number tbh) irish people go for confirmation instead of the usual number

And people start filling in the census honestly.

lawred2

splinter65 wrote: »

I had 13 years of education at the hands of the nuns. I witnessed children being disciplined, as was commonplace all over the world in all denominations at the time, but I never witnessed anyone beaten or raped, and none of my classmates ever witnessed anyone beaten or raped.
Of course I know that children were beaten and raped but I don’t know anyone who was.
So you’ll understand that I’m not going to allow you to say that every single brother priest and nun beat and raped children, as much as you obviously want to insist that it is.
Did Brother Kevin beat and rape? Father McVerry ? SrStan? Duarmuid Martin?
None of the three young priests in our parish have beaten or raped anyone.
None of the nuns on our home care team have beaten or raped anyone.
We must be extraordinarily lucky in our parish.

You're not going to allow him say something that he didn't ever say...

That's big of you

One eyed Jack

Odhinn wrote: »

Yes, and if they don't care, why should the state facilitate them?

Eh? I said they don't appear to care about all the negatives that you appear to associate with a religious education, not that they don't care about their children's education, which is exactly why the State is obliged to facilitate them because it's obliged to do so by numerous articles in the Irish Constitution.

I haven't actually suggested any ideology here at all. Removal of religion from schools is not one, afaik.

Any ideological position is by definition an ideology.

Odhinn wrote: »

And people start filling in the census honestly.

Do you have anything, any evidence at all to support what you appear to be inferring? Why do you assume that people aren't filling out the census honestly? I see no contradiction in people answering the question in terms of how they identify themselves, and how they choose to manifest their faith.

Odhinn

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Do you have anything, any evidence at all to support what you appear to be inferring? Why do you assume that people aren't filling out the census honestly? I see no contradiction in people answering the question in terms of how they identify themselves, and how they choose to manifest their faith.

Numbers of practices in contravention of catholic teaching contradict the numbers of those claiming to be catholic.

You can't call yourself a catholic while ignoring the commandments of the church - lapsed, dissenting or whatever else, but not a catholic. Non-mass going is one - another is referenced here
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=106113349&postcount=185
40% of births are outside marriage these days, which, you might be suprised to here, is also against church teaching.

One eyed Jack

Odhinn wrote: »

Numbers of practices in contravention of catholic teaching contradict the numbers of those claiming to be catholic.

You can't call yourself a catholic while ignoring the commandments of the church - lapsed, dissenting or whatever else, but not a catholic. Non-mass going is one - another is referenced here
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=106113349&postcount=185
40% of births are outside marriage these days, which, you might be suprised to here, is also against church teaching.

The thing is though, people can, and apparently from the evidence provided by census figures they do, honestly identify as Roman Catholic. You can point out all you want that they can't, and they shouldn't, and so on, but they're likely to pay as much attention to you as the priest in the opening post. Unless they've left the Roman Catholic Church, people who answer that they identify Roman Catholic on the census are being honest, because they are still members of the Roman Catholic Church.

mikemac2

In 2011 3.4 million was given out as exceptional needs payments to cover confirmation & communion clothes

In 2012 this was lowered to 1.5 million as the rate was pretty much cut in half from €242 to €112, not because there were less applicants

In 2013 Joan Burton scrapped it entirely and received a blistering attack from Willie O’Dea and the Fianna Fáil party who also managed to throw in a bit of class warfare. A single parents charity CEO also got their press release out to blast the minister

The SVP were quite restrained and had always discouraged wasteful spending on this. They probably get many demands around confirmation & communion time but they seem wise to it all

Optimalprimerib

VinLieger wrote: »

I completely agree, so is the catholic church going to arrange to give back 90% of primary schools to the state and thus remove the baptism barrier?

Nice idea but 99% of kids would still get the communion/confirmation because of €€€€€€€€€.

eviltwin

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The thing is though, people can, and apparently from the evidence provided by census figures they do, honestly identify as Roman Catholic. You can point out all you want that they can't, and they shouldn't, and so on, but they're likely to pay as much attention to you as the priest in the opening post. Unless they've left the Roman Catholic Church, people who answer that they identify Roman Catholic on the census are being honest, because they are still members of the Roman Catholic Church.

We can all call ourselves anything we like Jack, doesnt make it so.

One eyed Jack

eviltwin wrote: »

We can all call ourselves anything we like Jack, doesnt make it so.

I agree with you, but in the context of Odhinn's point that people who don't follow the tenets of their professed faith then can't call themselves Catholic, that simply isn't true, but I wouldn't call Odhinn dishonest for claiming something is true which they honestly and genuinely believe to be true.

If Odhinn knew that what they were claiming was untrue, then I could say they were being dishonest, but I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt and I'm not going to pass judgement on someone who doesn't appear to know any better.


EDIT: Here's a bit of an explainer -

What is excommunication?

Hotblack Desiato

Crea wrote: »

Except many people, like myself didnt have the option of a non religious school because we don't live in a major urban area.

I live in a large Dublin suburb and still don't have the option of a non religious school.

Hotblack Desiato

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Not true, no school is 100% built by the state

That's strange, because the secondary school I'm hoping to get my kids into in a few years time was 100% built by the state on land owned by the state. It has no religious BS 'ethos' and is all the better for that.

nozzferrahhtoo

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Unless they've left the Roman Catholic Church, people who answer that they identify Roman Catholic on the census are being honest, because they are still members of the Roman Catholic Church.

Well actually, since the thread has decided to go the way of pedantry, it should be pointed out that the Census does not ask you what you are a member of. It asks you what your religion is.

It is perfectly possible to be a member of that Church (especially given the lengths they have gone to to prevent people being able to cancel that membership) and not consider themselves catholic at all.

It is also perfectly possible to NOT be a member of that Church yet consider yourself to be a Catholic

So when you say they are being honest to identify as Roman Catholic "because they are still members of the Roman Catholic Church", you are incorrect. They would in that particular case be filling out the census form erroneously. They are being asked what their religion is, not what their memberships are.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

This is exactly where the whole 'religion has no place in education' argument has to face up to the reality that they are arguing from a minority position

I am not so sure how minority a position it actually is though. Erroneously a few people have looked to the census to base such a claim off. But the census does not ask this question at all. It just ascertains who identifies with what religion. But even if 100% of people identified as catholic that does not tell us ANYTHING about how many of them want catholic teachings in schools.

But in the social sciences "minority position" does not hold all that much weight. We have a concept of a tipping point, usually around 10% of a population, where beliefs or ideas for change tend to at that point get adopted by the majority of a society.

Not that I am unhappy that lay people to science on the opposite side of issues to me have a false sense of security derived from their ignorance of such dynamics. If it makes them sit around on their imagined laurels out of our way while we effect change, I am all for it.

But it is interesting the noises that are being made more and more of late on this issue, especially when historically "minority positions" have been well represented in recent and upcoming referendums.

And also interesting that groups recently of Muslims and Christians have joined with Atheist Ireland....... and despite not being able to agree on many others issues....... have found themselves united on working towards a secular and pluralist education system.

And all coupled with the fact the religious population is an ageing one, not as well represented in the youth as the aged, and looking to have less numbers and powers as older generations die off.

So I somewhat suspect your appeals to status quo and majority positions are more air than substance at this point. Neither of us have a crystal ball, but I do not expect to see all the changes I would like to see in your life time, let alone mine, but every trend I have seen so far is in the direction I am happy to see it go.