Making Confirmation and regular attendance at Mass

One eyed Jack

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Well actually, since the thread has decided to go the way of pedantry, it should be pointed out that the Census does not ask you what you are a member of. It asks you what your religion is.

It is perfectly possible to be a member of that Church (especially given the lengths they have gone to to prevent people being able to cancel that membership) and not consider themselves catholic at all.

It is also perfectly possible to NOT be a member of that Church yet consider yourself to be a Catholic

So when you say they are being honest to identify as Roman Catholic "because they are still members of the Roman Catholic Church", you are incorrect. They would in that particular case be filling out the census form erroneously. They are being asked what their religion is, not what their memberships are.

The thread hasn't gone the way of pedantry at all. The whole point being made is that people who identify as Roman Catholic yet do not appear to practice the tenets of their faith are being dishonest and hypocritical, that they are not Catholic and cannot call themselves Catholic, and I'm making the point that that simply isn't true.

I am not so sure how minority a position it actually is though. Erroneously a few people have looked to the census to base such a claim off. But the census does not ask this question at all. It just ascertains who identifies with what religion. But even if 100% of people identified as catholic that does not tell us ANYTHING about how many of them want catholic teachings in schools.

But in the social sciences "minority position" does not hold all that much weight. We have a concept of a tipping point, usually around 10% of a population, where beliefs or ideas for change tend to at that point get adopted by the majority of a society.

Not that I am unhappy that lay people to science on the opposite side of issues to me have a false sense of security derived from their ignorance of such dynamics. If it makes them sit around on their imagined laurels out of our way while we effect change, I am all for it.

But it is interesting the noises that are being made more and more of late on this issue, especially when historically "minority positions" have been well represented in recent and upcoming referendums.

And also interesting that groups recently of Muslims and Christians have joined with Atheist Ireland....... and despite not being able to agree on many others issues....... have found themselves united on working towards a secular and pluralist education system.

And all coupled with the fact the religious population is an ageing one, not as well represented in the youth as the aged, and looking to have less numbers and powers as older generations die off.

So I somewhat suspect your appeals to status quo and majority positions are more air than substance at this point. Neither of us have a crystal ball, but I do not expect to see all the changes I would like to see in your life time, let alone mine, but every trend I have seen so far is in the direction I am happy to see it go.

Well if you're happy, I'm happy for you

nozzferrahhtoo

And I am making the point that your claim it is honest to fill out "Catholic" on the census "because they are still members of the Roman Catholic Church" is a false claim. That would, as I said, by falsifying answers on the census. The census asks what your religion is, not what your memberships are.

One eyed Jack

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

And I am making the point that your claim it is honest to fill out "Catholic" on the census "because they are still members of the Roman Catholic Church" is a false claim. That would, as I said, by falsifying answers on the census. The census asks what your religion is, not what your memberships are.

If they are still members of the Roman Catholic Church, then they are being honest in ticking Roman Catholic on the census form, unless, as I said, they have left the Roman Catholic Church. Then they are no longer a member of the Roman Catholic Church. Nobody was talking about people who are not members of the Roman Catholic Church ticking Roman Catholic on the census form. In that case of course their claim is false, that's not really a contentious point.

nozzferrahhtoo

One eyed Jack wrote: »

If they are still members of the Roman Catholic Church, then they are being honest in ticking Roman Catholic on the census form

Again that is simply factually incorrect.

The question on the census is NOT "What church as you a member of". If it was, you would be correct. It is not, so you are not.

Read the question. It is not a complicated one. Here it is:

"What is your religion?"

If they do not consider themselves catholic, and do not think Catholicism if their religion, but fill out "Catholic" on the census "because they are still members of the Roman Catholic Church"..... then they are filling out the census falsely. Simple as.

I will say it a third time, the census asks what your religion is, not what your memberships are.

splinter65

Odhinn wrote: »

Numbers of practices in contravention of catholic teaching contradict the numbers of those claiming to be catholic.

You can't call yourself a catholic while ignoring the commandments of the church - lapsed, dissenting or whatever else, but not a catholic. Non-mass going is one - another is referenced here
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=106113349&postcount=185
40% of births are outside marriage these days, which, you might be suprised to here, is also against church teaching.

Problem for you is, you don’t get to decide who is and isn’t a Catholic any more then you can decide who is and isn’t a member of Ballygobacwards Golf Club. Your not a member of the club yourself, do you not feel a bit ludicrous compiling figures of who is and isn’t sticking to the rules of a club that you’ve no interest in?

One eyed Jack

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Again that is simply factually incorrect.

The question on the census is NOT "What church as you a member of". If it was, you would be correct. It is not, so you are not.

Read the question. It is not a complicated one. Here it is:

"What is your religion?"

If they do not consider themselves catholic, and do not think Catholicism if their religion, but fill out "Catholic" on the census "because they are still members of the Roman Catholic Church"..... then they are filling out the census falsely. Simple as.

I will say it a third time, the census asks what your religion is, not what your memberships are.

You can say it as many times as you like, but the people who we are talking about are people who are members of the Roman Catholic Church, who do consider themselves Catholic, who do consider Roman Catholicism as their religion, and tick Roman Catholicism on the census form.

The point being made by Odhinn is that people who do not appear to practice the tenets of their professed faith are not Catholic. Nobody was talking about people who do not identify as Roman Catholic being hypocritical or dishonest.

Hannibal_Smith

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Again that is simply factually incorrect.

The question on the census is NOT "What church as you a member of". If it was, you would be correct. It is not, so you are not.

Read the question. It is not a complicated one. Here it is:

"What is your religion?"

If they do not consider themselves catholic, and do not think Catholicism if their religion, but fill out "Catholic" on the census "because they are still members of the Roman Catholic Church"..... then they are filling out the census falsely. Simple as.

I will say it a third time, the census asks what your religion is, not what your memberships are.

I think that's splitting hairs a little. The question asks what religion are you. It doesn't ask what religion have you been indoctrinated into, but now reject. It asks what religion are you. I thought if you were baptised and went through the sacraments you were always a Catholic, until you were excommunicated or did whatever you have to do to excommunicate yourself. So how can it be lying to tick the Roman Catholic box?

How did a discussion about communion and confirmation turn into a discussion about ticking a box? :pac:

nozzferrahhtoo

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You can say it as many times as you like, but the people who we are talking about are people who are members of the Roman Catholic Church, who do consider themselves Catholic

And you can say it as many times as you like, but the fact is your MEMBERSHIP has nothing whatsoever to do with the question. You can go on and on and on about membership all day, but it will not make it anything to do with the census. At all. Even a little bit.

The point I am making therefore is that it is simply wrong to say "Catholic" on the census "because they are still members of the Roman Catholic Church". Especially given there are not all that many ways for someone to NOT be a member of that church. They closed the loopholes quite deliberately to stop members leaving.

And if you are NOT a member of that church but DO consider yourself to follow the catholic religion.... then you SHOULD tick "catholic" on the census.

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

The question asks what religion are you. It doesn't ask what religion have you been indoctrinated into, but now reject. It asks what religion are you.

100% exactly the point I am making.

If someone baptrised and confirmed into the Catholic Church suddenly decided at age 18 they are Muslim or Atheist, they should not be ticking "catholic". They should be ticking what they ARE, not what they once were, or were told they were before they could even talk.

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

or did whatever you have to do to excommunicate yourself

Alas very hard to do, if it is possible at all. They changed Canon Law to stop people opting out for example.

Lia_lia

Dozyart wrote: »

Had to get my kids baptised etc to get into local schools,but the oldest is up for confirmation this year and we have left it up to her now,she doesnt believe in god and we said we would respect whatever decision she makes.....so.....she made a business decision to do it for the money and never go back near a church were possible,pretty much what everyone does anyway

My brother and I were not baptised when we were babies (late 80’s/early 90’s). We weren’t born in Ireland and don’t come from religious families. When we moved here we got baptised as older children mainly so we could get into school. I was baptised a couple of weeks before my communion. I hadn’t a clue what was going on. Didn’t even really know what religion was until I started school here.

We were given the choice to make our communion/confirmation and we did just because everyone else was doing it. Actually my Mother got called into school because my brother told his teacher he was only making his confirmation for “the money”. In fairness the teacher said she appreciated his honesty, ha! The quoted post reminded me of that. My cousins who are my brother’s age didn’t get baptised or anything and went to the same school as us. Surprised they even got into the school tbh. They just stayed at school and did homework etc when religious stuff was going on.

When/if I have children I will not be baptising them and hopefully will be able to send them to the same educate together school that my boyfriend went to. Funnily enough even though he went to an educate together school (or the Cork school project as it was) he still made his communion etc to keep the extended family happy. He had to do “Catholic Class” within the school. I wonder is this still a thing...

Hannibal_Smith

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

100% exactly the point I am making.

If someone baptrised and confirmed into the Catholic Church suddenly decided at age 18 they are Muslim or Atheist, they should not be ticking "catholic". They should be ticking what they ARE, not what they once were, or were told they were before they could even talk.

Alas very hard to do, if it is possible at all. They changed Canon Law to stop people opting out for example.

I think you've slightly missed what I'm saying. If they have been baptized etc, they are always a Catholic. I didn't think simply declaring yourself an atheist was enough to detach yourself from the religion?

If you can't opt out, then you are still part of the religion, regardless of whether you practice or not, or accept or reject it?

In fact, to get back to the point of the thread, I just googled to see of non attendance at mass was a deflection, and apparently it's not. So does the priest in enniscorthy have a right to reject non practising Catholics for confirmation?

One eyed Jack

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

And you can say it as many times as you like, but the fact is your MEMBERSHIP has nothing whatsoever to do with the question. You can go on and on and on about membership all day, but it will not make it anything to do with the census. At all. Even a little bit.

The point I am making therefore is that it is simply wrong to say "Catholic" on the census "because they are still members of the Roman Catholic Church". Especially given there are not all that many ways for someone to NOT be a member of that church. They closed the loopholes quite deliberately to stop members leaving.

And if you are NOT a member of that church but DO consider yourself to follow the catholic religion.... then you SHOULD tick "catholic" on the census.

None of what you've just written has anything to do with the argument that people who are Roman Catholic who tick Roman Catholic on the census form are either being dishonest or hypocritical because they do not appear to practice the tenets of their professed faith.

100% exactly the point I am making.

If someone baptrised and confirmed into the Catholic Church suddenly decided at age 18 they are Muslim or Atheist, they should not be ticking "catholic". They should be ticking what they ARE, not what they once were, or were told they were before they could even talk.

But we're all agreed on that, everyone agrees with that, but those people are not the people we are talking about. The people we are talking about are people who are members of the Roman Catholic Church, who identify as Roman Catholic, but according to some posters here those people are not Roman Catholic because they do not appear to practice the tenets of their faith.

Alas very hard to do, if it is possible at all. They changed Canon Law to stop people opting out for example.

Eh? It's very easy to excommunicate yourself from the Catholic Church? I even linked to it earlier in the thread -

What is excommunication?

eviltwin

Lia_lia wrote: »

When/if I have children I will not be baptising them and hopefully will be able to send them to the same educate together school that my boyfriend went to. Funnily enough even though he went to an educate together school (or the Cork school project as it was) he still made his communion etc to keep the extended family happy. He had to do “Catholic Class” within the school. I wonder is this still a thing...

There's no religion specific classes in the Educate Together schools but it's normal for Catholic students to have the option of doing sacraments preparation after school. In our school it's done in the school building and run by volunteers, the school provide a classroom but don't have any other involvement

eviltwin

Excommunication still requires weekly mass attendance AFAIK. I think it stops you receiving communion though.

One eyed Jack

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

I think you've slightly missed what I'm saying. If they have been baptized etc, they are always a Catholic. I didn't think simply declaring yourself an atheist was enough to detach yourself from the religion?

If you can't opt out, then you are still part of the religion, regardless of whether you practice or not, or accept or reject it?

In fact, to get back to the point of the thread, I just googled to see of non attendance at mass was a deflection, and apparently it's not. So does the priest in enniscorthy have a right to reject non practising Catholics for confirmation?

That really is the whole point of this discussion, and the fact is that he doesn't have that authority and that is not his role within the Roman Catholic Church. It's as I said from the beginning of the thread - he's being ridiculous, and if he wanted to stand in judgement of people then he was better off never becoming a priest in the first place.

Lia_lia

eviltwin wrote: »

There's no religion specific classes in the Educate Together schools but it's normal for Catholic students to have the option of doing sacraments preparation after school. In our school it's done in the school building and run by volunteers, the school provide a classroom but don't have any other involvement

Ah okay. Makes sense. His says it was done by outside people (not sure if volunteers) but was during school time. This was in the 90’s though so I’d say a lot has changed since..

beauf

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

....
How did a discussion about communion and confirmation turn into a discussion about ticking a box? :pac:

Because every rc thread is essentially derailed to be the same thread.

...school admissions policies..
... redefining the numbers to change school policies...

Regardless of other issues and there are many...it will come down to that almost ever time.... it's like Godwins? law for atheists. Maybe it should be Godbad law or something....

You could make a quiz show about matching subjects in forums.
Cycling...hi viz..
Cyclists..road tax..
.windows...apple
...bad driving...taxis..
..suspended sentence...2000 previous convictions....





..

turbot

Trey Quick Flame wrote: »

A priest in Enniscorthy has said that parents who want their children to make their Confirmation must attend Mass. I think he's right. People taking part in sacraments that are completely meaningless to them seems very hypocritical to me, and insulting to the people to whom they have religious significance.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/confirmation-children-families-must-attend-mass-says-priest-1.3385833

It is just weird that in most areas of life, you have to be over 18 for your consent / agreements to be fully valid - but catholicism attempts to get you to confirm your religious views before you’re old enough to have any idea about what you’re agreeing to or any developed notion of the alternatives. On this basis, confimations would be deemed contractually void if they related to say, a 3 year contract for work... surely a soul level agreement is a bigger deal than that?

Its just riduculous that relatives n all incentivise this soul level agreement through monetary gifts and its used to determine educational access options.

I can’t wait for the day when class action lawsuits are served to religious orders for pervasive psycho-sexual abuse - for indoctrinating teenagers to connect their predictable biological responses (as they sexually maturate) to extreme conflict, shame and the risk of being burned for eternity. Its just weird that this is still legal... when most adult to minor bullying is not.

In the UK, psychological abuse & threat in relationships is a crime. I don’t see how threatening teenagers not to have sexual thoughts is any different as they advance through adolescence. Seems worse to me...

Bob_Marley

One eyed Jack wrote: »

That really is the whole point of this discussion, and the fact is that he doesn't have that authority and that is not his role within the Roman Catholic Church. It's as I said from the beginning of the thread - he's being ridiculous, and if he wanted to stand in judgement of people then he was better off never becoming a priest in the first place.

Why would someone who has no real interest and attending mass, and no real faith or belief in Catholicism expect and demand the church to confirm them ? do they even know/agree spirituality what it is ? - bizarre.

One eyed Jack

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Why would someone who has no real interest and attending mass, and no real faith or belief in Catholicism expect and demand the church to confirm them ? do they even know/agree spirituality what it is ? - bizarre.

I don't know, is really the only honest answer I could give you to that question. I mean, I could speculate on an infinite number of reasons, but really it's not something I've ever asked any parent when they've told me they're not religious themselves, but they want their child to be baptised / make their communion / make their confirmation. It's just not something that's ever bothered me. I don't question their reasoning, I just accept it for what it is. I'm sure they have their reasons, I've just never needed to know is all.

Odhinn

splinter65 wrote: »

Problem for you is, you don’t get to decide who is and isn’t a Catholic any more then you can decide who is and isn’t a member of Ballygobacwards Golf Club. Your not a member of the club yourself, do you not feel a bit ludicrous compiling figures of who is and isn’t sticking to the rules of a club that you’ve no interest in?

I don't compile the numbers. And while I have no interest in the club, it effects me.

ToddyDoody

As a friend of mine said back in the day "I'm making my confirmation and you can't stop me'

beauf

Odhinn wrote: »

I don't compile the numbers. And while I have no interest in the club, it effects me.

It seems every issue is about admissions. Even confirmation.

Crea

It seems that in Germany you can make an official declaration and leave the church.

Those who do not want to pay the religious tax can leave the church by making an official declaration that he or she is leaving the faith.
Catholics, Protestants or Jews who opt out of the tax will no longer be allowed to receive sacraments, except the last rites before death. They will also not be allowed, for example, to participate in confessions, confirmation, work in the church / house of worship and its schools or hospitals, become a godparent, or take part in parish activities.

kylith

Excommunication doesn’t render you not a catholic anyway, it just means you’re not allowed to take communion.

The issue with the census is that the RCC uses the data to claim that 80% of the population are Catholic when issues like removing sacraments from schools comes up, even though ugh 90% of those people don’t agree with church teaching, din’t go to mass, don’t abide by church rules, and a fair proportion of them may not even believe in a deity. It is simply dishonest to claim you are Catholic if you don’t subscribe to any aspect of the religion.

However people have somehow gotten the impression that once you’re baptised you’re a catholic forever, and while that is technically true since you can’t leave you wouldn’t go around saying you were a Cub Scout just cos your mum signed you up 30 years ago.

Nettle Soup

Odhinn wrote: »

Dump child at school in the hope they'll take care of religous instruction, live life outside tenants of religion you claim to be a member of, decry change to status quo, rinse and repeat. A nation of poxy hypocrites.

You are right. We are a nation of cowardly hypocrites.

Bob_Marley

kylith wrote: »

Excommunication doesn’t render you not a catholic anyway, it just means you’re not allowed to take communion.

The issue with the census is that the RCC uses the data to claim that 80% of the population are Catholic when issues like removing sacraments from schools comes up, even though ugh 90% of those people don’t agree with church teaching, din’t go to mass, don’t abide by church rules, and a fair proportion of them may not even believe in a deity. It is simply dishonest to claim you are Catholic if you don’t subscribe to any aspect of the religion.

However people have somehow gotten the impression that once you’re baptised you’re a catholic forever, and while that is technically true since you can’t leave you wouldn’t go around saying you were a Cub Scout just cos your mum signed you up 30 years ago.

But the fact remains 80% claim they are Catholic, the fact you have a sectarian problem with others, is your problem, not theirs.

The formal process for leaving the Catholic church was simplified in Ireland in recent years, now you don't need one, you simply just decide you've left and at census time put down Jedi keyboard manga SJW, or whatever you're into, just like many people who were once have Catholic done so.

I left the cub scouts years ago, and there was no formal process there either. It doesn't mean I didn't or cannot leave and that I'm a member for ever, that's complete and utter rubbish.

I would have thought that regular attendance at Mass was a prerequisite for Communion and Confirmation. Otherwise what is the point?

Hannibal_Smith

kylith wrote: »

Excommunication doesn’t render you not a catholic anyway, it just means you’re not allowed to take communion.

The issue with the census is that the RCC uses the data to claim that 80% of the population are Catholic when issues like removing sacraments from schools comes up, even though ugh 90% of those people don’t agree with church teaching, din’t go to mass, don’t abide by church rules, and a fair proportion of them may not even believe in a deity. It is simply dishonest to claim you are Catholic if you don’t subscribe to any aspect of the religion.

However people have somehow gotten the impression that once you’re baptised you’re a catholic forever, and while that is technically true since you can’t leave you wouldn’t go around saying you were a Cub Scout just cos your mum signed you up 30 years ago.

The cub scout comparison isn't relatable. Once you reach a certain age you're no longer eligible to be a member. With Catholicism, it seems you are always a member. Not practising does not remove your membership. Nothing appears to remove it :pac: So if you're a member of the religion, how can a priest refuse to give your kid the sacraments? The parents are not being confirmed, the children are and chances are that they've gone through a huge amount of preparation for the day. So why not confirm them?

Bob_Marley

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

Catholicism, it seems you are always a member. Not practising does not remove your membership. Nothing appears to remove it

This is rubbish, if you decide you're not a catholic and you've left you're not one.

Odhinn

Bob_Marley wrote: »

This is rubbish, if you decide you're not a catholic and you've left you're not one.

And if you tick the box in the census but ignore the various strictures about everything from sex to mass attendance?