Making Confirmation and regular attendance at Mass

c68zapdsm5i1ru

A priest in Enniscorthy has said that parents who want their children to make their Confirmation must attend Mass. I think he's right. People taking part in sacraments that are completely meaningless to them seems very hypocritical to me, and insulting to the people to whom they have religious significance.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/confirmation-children-families-must-attend-mass-says-priest-1.3385833

99 Bortles of Beer

That's funny, because I attended Mass regularly before my confirmation and haven't attended since. It's as if my Ma said to God "Right, my job is done. He's your problem now."

eviltwin

Trey Quick Flame wrote: »

A priest in Enniscorthy has said that parents who want their children to make their Confirmation must attend Mass. I think he's right. People taking part in sacraments that are completely meaningless to them seems very hypocritical to me, and insulting to the people to whom they have religious significance.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/confirmation-children-families-must-attend-mass-says-priest-1.3385833

Pity they aren't so gung ho when it comes to baptisms

Odhinn

Trey Quick Flame wrote: »

A priest in Enniscorthy has said that parents who want their children to make their Confirmation must attend Mass. I think he's right. People taking part in sacraments that are completely meaningless to them seems very hypocritical to me, and insulting to the people to whom they have religious significance.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/confirmation-children-families-must-attend-mass-says-priest-1.3385833

Dump child at school in the hope they'll take care of religous instruction, live life outside tenants of religion you claim to be a member of, decry change to status quo, rinse and repeat. A nation of poxy hypocrites.

VinLieger

I completely agree, so is the catholic church going to arrange to give back 90% of primary schools to the state and thus remove the baptism barrier?

Blazer

To be honest I'm quite happy for my child to skip the whole nonsense around religion and communion and confirmation and believe it should be taken outside of school. Unfortunately my missus believes this would penalise him regarding school places etc so she's made the decision that he would take part in these despite my wishes.
But seriously..how on earth would a priest know who's going to mass every week? "I'm sitting at the back father" lol

c68zapdsm5i1ru

Blazer wrote: »

To be honest I'm quite happy for my child to skip the whole nonsense around religion and communion and confirmation and believe it should be taken outside of school. Unfortunately my missus believes this would penalise him regarding school places etc so she's made the decision that he would take part in these despite my wishes.
But seriously..how on earth would a priest know who's going to mass every week? "I'm sitting at the back father" lol

In Dublin it would be difficult but in smaller country parishes not so much I would imagine.

The debate around the baptism barrier is a valid one, but not really the subject of this thread. It is not compulsory for any child to make their Confirmation so why do so many parents, including those who are against the baptism issue, present their child for it and Communion, when they don't have to?

piplip87

Trey Quick Flame wrote: »

A priest in Enniscorthy has said that parents who want their children to make their Confirmation must attend Mass. I think he's right. People taking part in sacraments that are completely meaningless to them seems very hypocritical to me, and insulting to the people to whom they have religious significance.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/confirmation-children-families-must-attend-mass-says-priest-1.3385833

Yes but how many if the Children are only Catholic because of the schools admission policy ? The preparation for Confirmation takes up massive amounts timewise in 6th Class, kids whose parents have no choice in the matter, as kids not receiving confirmation may be seen as different by their class mates ?

Solution to all of this is to take religious teaching and preparation for sacraments out if schools. If a parent want their children indoctrinated in the Catholic Church or any church it should be done at home.

If priests want religious education let them take Sunday Schools after mass on a Sunday.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

piplip87 wrote: »

Yes but how many if the Children are only Catholic because of the schools admission policy ? The preparation for Confirmation takes up massive amounts timewise in 6th Class, kids whose parents have no choice in the matter, as kids not receiving confirmation may be seen as different by their class mates ?

Solution to all of this is to take religious teaching and preparation for sacraments out if schools. If a parent want their children indoctrinated in the Catholic Church or any church it should be done at home.

If priests want religious education let them take Sunday Schools after mass on a Sunday.

I think Sunday Schools are going to be the way forward, as it makes no sense for parents who never go to Mass to be taking part in Communion and Confirmation ceremonies.

VinLieger

Trey Quick Flame wrote: »

In Dublin it would be difficult but in smaller country parishes not so much I would imagine.

The debate around the baptism barrier is a valid one, but not really the subject of this thread. It is not compulsory for any child to make their Confirmation so why do so many parents, including those who are against the baptism issue, present their child for it and Communion, when they don't have to?

It is deffinitely the subject of the thread if a priest is identifying parents being guilty of this when performing one sacrament but not the other. He's quite happy to turn a blind eye to the baptism issue as it keeps the churches numbers up.

Hes a hypocrite but tbh i wouldn't expect much better from a any member of the catholic church

piplip87

Trey Quick Flame wrote: »

In Dublin it would be difficult but in smaller country parishes not so much I would imagine.

The debate around the baptism barrier is a valid one, but not really the subject of this thread. It is not compulsory for any child to make their Confirmation so why do so many parents, including those who are against the baptism issue, present their child for it and Communion, when they don't have to?

A class if 30 kids. 3 don't wish to get a sacrament. Then three kids will be seen as different by their classmates, so much school time is taken up with preparation what are then 3 kid going to do ?

wnolan1992

Blazer wrote: »

To be honest I'm quite happy for my child to skip the whole nonsense around religion and communion and confirmation and believe it should be taken outside of school. Unfortunately my missus believes this would penalise him regarding school places etc so she's made the decision that he would take part in these despite my wishes.
But seriously..how on earth would a priest know who's going to mass every week? "I'm sitting at the back father" lol

TBH, I think your wife is right, as sad and all as that is.

Just be sure to constantly tell him it's all bollox and you're literally just ticking a box so he can claim to be Catholic if his school requires it, and he should be grand.

Agricola

It's such bollox. Friend of mine is having a humanist wedding, him and the Mrs are openly atheist, none of the a la carte catholic business, but they've had the kid baptized so they have a choice of national schools in the locality. They've decided to let the child go through all the catholic rituals/teaching in school because they don't want him excluded or feeling different. All that tripe should be removed from school hours and only attended to evening and weekends. Then we'd see who the real Catholics are.

kneemos

Isn't it the kid that's getting confirmed?
Why are the parents being hard shouldered into getting out of bed on they're day off?

c68zapdsm5i1ru

wnolan1992 wrote: »

TBH, I think your wife is right, as sad and all as that is.

Just be sure to constantly tell him it's all bollox and you're literally just ticking a box so he can claim to be Catholic if his school requires it, and he should be grand.

Genuine question, not being sarcastic, but do you actually know of any child who's been penalised for not making their Communion or Confirmation?

Agricola

kneemos wrote: »

Isn't it the kid that's getting confirmed?
Why are the parents being hard shouldered into getting out of bed on they're day off?

If you look at it from the churches perspective, then parents absolutely should be taking their kids to mass in the build up to their confirmation. It is supposed to the sacrament where the child is initiated into the cult community and is the coming of age ceremony, so it stands to reason parents would support them in this.

In reality, all these rituals are no more important to parents than the Christmas nativity play. Just one more yolk you have to go to!

eviltwin

I wonder what genuine Catholics feel about people using their faith as an excuse for a party. Do they feel insulted by it?

iguana

Trey Quick Flame wrote: »

The debate around the baptism barrier is a valid one, but not really the subject of this thread. It is not compulsory for any child to make their Confirmation so why do so many parents, including those who are against the baptism issue, present their child for it and Communion, when they don't have to?

It's the exact subject of the thread. If religion was out of the schools then the only families that would pursue confirmation would be those who it means something to. If the priest really wants only religious families to have their children confirmed he should be campaigning for the divestment of schools.

kneemos

Agricola wrote: »

If you look at it from the churches perspective, then parents absolutely should be taking their kids to mass in the build up to their confirmation. It is supposed to the sacrament where the child is initiated into the cult community and is the coming of age ceremony, so it stands to reason parents would support them in this.

In reality, all these rituals are no more important to parents than the Christmas nativity play. Just one more yolk you have to go to!

Guarantee you the church is way more eager to get the kid confirmed than the vast majority of the parents.

VinLieger

eviltwin wrote: »

I wonder what genuine Catholics feel about people using their faith as an excuse for a party. Do they feel insulted by it?

I doubt they care as they know well if the baptism barrier is removed their official numbers will plummet to show the real number of people they have and they then wont have the ability to enforce their beliefs on everyone else so easily

VinLieger

Trey Quick Flame wrote: »

Genuine question, not being sarcastic, but do you actually know of any child who's been penalised for not making their Communion or Confirmation?

We have been told by every school near us as they are all catholic that if our child is not baptised they will be at the bottom of any admissions list and not guaranteed a place.

I pay my taxes that fund these schools yet unless I forcibly sign my child up to say they believe in fairies they wont get a place.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

Most practising Catholics I know really dislike the way sacraments have become so meaningless and would prefer that only genuine Catholics took part in them.

I think the Church is in a difficult position. If they put their foot down and refused to baptise, Confirm or allow making of Holy Communion for children from non practising families they would be attacked. If they allow it they're accused of hypocrisy.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

VinLieger wrote: »

We have been told by every school near us as they are all catholic that if our child is not baptised they will be at the bottom of any admissions list and not guaranteed a place.

I pay my taxes that fund these schools yet unless I forcibly sign my child up to say they believe in fairies they wont get a place.

Yes I understand that. I was just wondering about Communion and Confirmation.

VinLieger

Trey Quick Flame wrote: »

Most practising Catholics I know really dislike the way sacraments have become so meaningless and would prefer that only genuine Catholics took part in them.

Why arent they out campaigning for divestment then?

VinLieger

Trey Quick Flame wrote: »

Yes I understand that. I was just wondering about Communion and Confirmation.

Why are you obsessed with confirmation and communion? Are you saying its okay to fake it for baptism but the other 2 its not?

c68zapdsm5i1ru

VinLieger wrote: »

Why are you obsessed with confirmation and communion? Are you saying its okay to fake it for baptism but the other 2 its not?

No I've said I realise that the Baptism barrier is an issue, but have genuinely never heard of Confirmation or Communion being used as a criteria for anything so am wondering why non practising parents seem to willingly take part in these? It's a genuine question by the way.

VinLieger

Trey Quick Flame wrote: »

No I've said I realise that the Baptism barrier is an issue, but have genuinely never heard of Confirmation or Communion being used as a criteria for anything so am wondering why non practising parents seem to willingly take part in these? It's a genuine question by the way.

It was answered above, the children who dont go through the process with the rest of their class usually are made feel to be missing out, they dont also get to have a big party and all the extras like presents that go along with the whole farce.

The last thing any child of that age wants is to be made feel different and have it visibly pointed out

Pete Tong

Trey Quick Flame wrote: »

No I've said I realise that the Baptism barrier is an issue, but have genuinely never heard of Confirmation or Communion being used as a criteria for anything so am wondering why non practising parents seem to willingly take part in these? It's a genuine question by the way.

They don't want their kids to miss out on the party.
They also don't want their kids to stand out or be different.
(what VinLieger above said)

For them, it's just a party with a boring Church bit at the beginning.

May I ask you for your personal opinion Trey Quick Flame - would you have a problem with religion being removed from schools? - you could still do this stuff in your own time.

Bob Harris

Blazer wrote: »

But seriously..how on earth would a priest know who's going to mass every week? "I'm sitting at the back father" lol

God would know.

eviltwin

VinLieger wrote: »

It was answered above, the children who dont go through the process with the rest of their class usually are made feel to be missing out, they dont also get to have a big party and all the extras like presents that go along with the whole farce.

The last thing any child of that age wants is to be made feel different and have it visibly pointed out

Do they though? I've known loads of kids in Catholic schools who didn't do them and no one cared or teased them.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

VinLieger wrote: »

It was answered above, the children who dont go through the process with the rest of their class usually are made feel to be missing out, they dont also get to have a big party and all the extras like presents that go along with the whole farce.

The last thing any child of that age wants is to be made feel different and have it visibly pointed out

I was actually querying the posters who implied that children 'lose out' when it comes to school places going forward. I was wondering if that actually happens, and do secondary schools discriminate against kids who haven't received their First Communion or Confirmation.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

Pete Tong wrote: »

They don't want their kids to miss out on the party.
They also don't want their kids to stand out or be different.
(what VinLieger above said)

For them, it's just a party with a boring Church bit at the beginning.

May I ask you for your personal opinion BellaBella - would you have a problem with religion being removed from schools? - you could still do this stuff in your own time.

As I've said, I think Sunday Schools probably make more sense nowadays.

eviltwin

Trey Quick Flame wrote: »

I was actually querying the posters who implied that children 'lose out' when it comes to school places going forward. I was wondering if that actually happens, and do secondary schools discriminate against kids who haven't received their First Communion or Confirmation.

No they don't, they don't even ask.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

A further twist is that Canon Law states that, for a Catholic Church wedding you need to make you confirmation first.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

eviltwin wrote: »

Do they though? I've known loads of kids in Catholic schools who didn't do them and no one cared or teased them.

Likewise. They were always made to feel welcome at the Church on the day if they wanted to witness their friends taking part in the ceremony and back at the party in the school. I would hate to think that any children would be nasty or unpleasant towards a child not making their Communion or Confirmation, or that teachers would allow this.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

Kace Prehistoric Raceway wrote: »

A further twist is that Canon Law states that, for a Catholic Church wedding you need to make you confirmation first.

But I presume if you haven't made your Confirmation you would be unlikely to want a Catholic Church wedding.

seamus

I don't understand why the priest wants to see the parents at Mass. They're not the ones making their confirmation.

Pete Tong

Trey Quick Flame wrote: »

As I've said, I think Sunday Schools probably make more sense nowadays.

Thanks.
In my opinion, that is the answer. With a Sunday School system and no religion in schools you'd see a sudden drop in bouncy castle Catholics.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

seamus wrote: »

I don't understand why the priest wants to see the parents at Mass. They're not the ones making their confirmation.

He wants to see the parents bringing the children to Mass.

BeardySi

Pete Tong wrote: »

Trey Quick Flame wrote: »

As I've said, I think Sunday Schools probably make more sense nowadays.

Thanks.
In my opinion, that is the answer. With a Sunday School system and no religion in schools you'd see a sudden drop in bouncy castle Catholics.

Best phrase ever....

Odhinn

Kace Prehistoric Raceway wrote: »

A further twist is that Canon Law states that, for a Catholic Church wedding you need to make you confirmation first.

What if you can't fit into the suit anymore?

Sofiztikated

Odhinn wrote: »

What if you can't fit into the suit anymore?

Judging by what Mrs. Sof's nephews got in cards for theirs, a confirmation before a wedding would be a handy way to pay off the wedding band.

To be honest, priests (both Catholic and Presbyterian, not sure 100% about the other flavours of Protestant) have been saying this for ages around here.

wnolan1992

Sorry, going to reply to three vastly different points at once here:

Trey Quick Flame wrote: »

Genuine question, not being sarcastic, but do you actually know of any child who's been penalised for not making their Communion or Confirmation?

A fair question, don't know why people were jumping down your throat a bit about it. No, I know of no such situation, nor do I think it's a widespread thing. My original post (which was what was originally replied to for those who don't want to read back) was mostly just me kidding around about parents who aren't believers putting their kids in religious education even though they have no faith themselves.

However, I do subscribe to the idea that kids who don't partake in Communion and Confirmation prep in schools miss out, and I'll go into that more below.

Trey Quick Flame wrote: »

Most practising Catholics I know really dislike the way sacraments have become so meaningless and would prefer that only genuine Catholics took part in them.

I think the Church is in a difficult position. If they put their foot down and refused to baptise, Confirm or allow making of Holy Communion for children from non practising families they would be attacked. If they allow it they're accused of hypocrisy.

There's a very, very simple solution to keep everyone happy. Remove religious education (with a specific ethos, not actual education about religions) from schools.

Parents can then opt IN to extra religious classes (say after school hours have finished or in a Sunday School type scenario where while the parents are at Mass, the kids are in the local community centre doing Communion and Confirmation prep).

I genuinely believe people who so ardently oppose removing religious doctrines from schools only do so because they are too lazy to go to the effort themselves. They want their kid to be Catholic, but don't actually want to go to any effort in making that happen, they just want the school to do it.

eviltwin wrote: »

Do they though? I've known loads of kids in Catholic schools who didn't do them and no one cared or teased them.

OK, I'll be drawing on my own experiences here, so bear in mind that these are anecdotal and may not be representative of wider trends.

So, I'm visually impaired. Legally blind. When I received special resource hours during the week. Basically, at certain times I'd just head off to a separate room with a teacher to get one-on-one tuition. Similarly, in my secondary school, first years do every subject. Because of my limited vision, it was decided that I couldn't do subjects like Metalwork or Woodwork. I would break off from my class at these times to go with a resource teacher. And during my 5 years in secondary education, I spent the majority of my PE classes alone in the back room of the gym where there were some machines (rowing machine, treadmill, bike, elliptical, weights, etc).

All of that is to say, I know what I'm talking about when it comes to being separated out from the main class.

And it, f*cking, sucks.

Do not misunderstand me. I am incredibly grateful I got those hours. I am. But it f*cking sucks to be the only one doing something in an environment where basically everything revolves around everyone doing everything at the same time. You come back to your class an hour later, and something has happened that they're all laughing at and you have to hear about second hand. They've all had a collective experience which you couldn't share in.

So yeah, I was never teased because, luckily, pretty much everyone in both my primary school and secondary school classes were decent human beings, and I don't think the argument here should be that kids who opt out of religious education would be teased. The argument here is that they are being singled out and separated.

Make it an extra curricular activity, done outside of school. Then it's no different to kids who play GAA or learn music outside of school.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

wnolan1992 wrote: »

Sorry, going to reply to three vastly different points at once here:



A fair question, don't know why people were jumping down your throat a bit about it. No, I know of no such situation, nor do I think it's a widespread thing. My original post (which was what was originally replied to for those who don't want to read back) was mostly just me kidding around about parents who aren't believers putting their kids in religious education even though they have no faith themselves.

However, I do subscribe to the idea that kids who don't partake in Communion and Confirmation prep in schools miss out, and I'll go into that more below.



There's a very, very simple solution to keep everyone happy. Remove religious education (with a specific ethos, not actual education about religions) from schools.

Parents can then opt IN to extra religious classes (say after school hours have finished or in a Sunday School type scenario where while the parents are at Mass, the kids are in the local community centre doing Communion and Confirmation prep).

I genuinely believe people who so ardently oppose removing religious doctrines from schools only do so because they are too lazy to go to the effort themselves. They want their kid to be Catholic, but don't actually want to go to any effort in making that happen, they just want the school to do it.



OK, I'll be drawing on my own experiences here, so bear in mind that these are anecdotal and may not be representative of wider trends.

So, I'm visually impaired. Legally blind. When I received special resource hours during the week. Basically, at certain times I'd just head off to a separate room with a teacher to get one-on-one tuition. Similarly, in my secondary school, first years do every subject. Because of my limited vision, it was decided that I couldn't do subjects like Metalwork or Woodwork. I would break off from my class at these times to go with a resource teacher. And during my 5 years in secondary education, I spent the majority of my PE classes alone in the back room of the gym where there were some machines (rowing machine, treadmill, bike, elliptical, weights, etc).

All of that is to say, I know what I'm talking about when it comes to being separated out from the main class.

And it, f*cking, sucks.

Do not misunderstand me. I am incredibly grateful I got those hours. I am. But it f*cking sucks to be the only one doing something in an environment where basically everything revolves around everyone doing everything at the same time. You come back to your class an hour later, and something has happened that they're all laughing at and you have to hear about second hand. They've all had a collective experience which you couldn't share in.

So yeah, I was never teased because, luckily, pretty much everyone in both my primary school and secondary school classes were decent human beings, and I don't think the argument here should be that kids who opt out of religious education would be teased. The argument here is that they are being singled out and separated.

Make it an extra curricular activity, done outside of school. Then it's no different to kids who play GAA or learn music outside of school.

I can see why that was difficult for you. I suppose the difference with a religious scenario is that an awful lot of the children don't come from families who practise their Catholicism so if those parents stopped opting in to ceremonies that they don't believe in, there would be at least a 50:50 split between those being prepared for Confirmation and those doing something else during that time.

Odhinn

wnolan1992 wrote: »

................

I genuinely believe people who so ardently oppose removing religious doctrines from schools only do so because they are too lazy to go to the effort themselves. They want their kid to be Catholic, but don't actually want to go to any effort in making that happen, they just want the school to do it.



l.

That sums it up. Tick the boxes, do the minimum, throw up murder if they want to change the ethos of the school, follow the poxy herd. It sickens me about this country. They should adopt the German method - if you tick the box, you pay money and get the church services. If you don't, you don't. That would stop this neverending cycle of hypocrisy quick enough.

Grayson

piplip87 wrote: »

Yes but how many if the Children are only Catholic because of the schools admission policy ?

I'm sure some kids are but I'm also sure more kids are baptised because people feel pressure from their family to do so.

It'd be interesting to see a breakdown of figures. How many are because parents are devout catholics. How many are because of peer pressure. How many because of schooling etc...

wnolan1992

Trey Quick Flame wrote: »

I can see why that was difficult for you. I suppose the difference with a religious scenario is that an awful lot of the children don't come from families who practise their Catholicism so if those parents stopped opting in to ceremonies that they don't believe in, there would be at least a 50:50 split between those being prepared for Confirmation and those doing something else during that time.

So then you either have the 50% of the class that has opted out of religious education getting a superior education to their classmates by spending that prep time actually learning something, or you the 50% of the class that has opted out of religious education doing pointless busy work during that time effectively wasting their school hours.

Neither of those are particularly palatable options.

Blazer

wnolan1992 wrote: »

TBH, I think your wife is right, as sad and all as that is.

Just be sure to constantly tell him it's all bollox and you're literally just ticking a box so he can claim to be Catholic if his school requires it, and he should be grand.

Well I want him to find his own way. If he chooses to believe in it that's his prerogative.
For me the realization that God obviously didn't exist was the day Jamie Bulger died and the papers ran with the the picture of those boys holding his hand as they led him away. I think I was only 18 or something at the time. Some day I hope those two pricks get what's coming for them instead of them leading a happy life till they get old and die. Sometimes I envy those who believe these guys will burn alive in hell forever but to me that's not going to happen.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

wnolan1992 wrote: »

So then you either have the 50% of the class that has opted out of religious education getting a superior education to their classmates by spending that prep time actually learning something, or you the 50% of the class that has opted out of religious education doing pointless busy work during that time effectively wasting their school hours.

Neither of those are particularly palatable options.

Not really. They could work on group projects and present them to the other half of the class on a specified day; so they learn something and then pass what they've learnt on to the rest of the class. So maybe one teacher of that particular year could do the Communion or Confirmation preparation and the other(s) could work with the rest of the group.

I'm sure there's lots of other options as well.

But as I've already said, Sunday School is becoming a strong likelihood.

Dozyart

Had to get my kids baptised etc to get into local schools,but the oldest is up for confirmation this year and we have left it up to her now,she doesnt believe in god and we said we would respect whatever decision she makes.....so.....she made a business decision to do it for the money and never go back near a church were possible,pretty much what everyone does anyway

Guy:Incognito

wnolan1992 wrote: »

.

I genuinely believe people who so ardently oppose removing religious doctrines from schools only do so because they are too lazy to go to the effort themselves. They want their kid to be Catholic, but don't actually want to go to any effort in making that happen, they just want the school to do it.

What makes you believe they want their kids to be Catholic?

If there was no downside, with schools etc, to not being Catholic, why do you reckon people who don't bother their holes to engage in Catholicism would want their kids to?






On the part about kids not getting confirmed, I took it that the poster meant that the kids would feel left out, in the sense of missing a party and getting money etc. How much you got was the first topic on the day after when I was in school. I doubt very many people are bullied excuse they didn't and I don't think that was implied.