Making Confirmation and regular attendance at Mass

Rubberchikken

Argue that religion has no part in schools. Want the kid to make first communion/confirmation for the day out (hair, nails, tan) but dont want tje effort of teaching them so expect the schools to do it.

Crappy hypocrites.

captbarnacles

splinter65 wrote: »

Why would you allow your child to stand in front of a whole church full of people and tell blatant lies like that. Are you mad? And you her parent standing there too, lying and smiling for no reason?
Will you continue through her teenage years encouraging her to have no self esteem dignity, pride or morals just to get cash?
I presume shoplifting or snatching handbags is a business desicion as well, it doesn’t matter as long as you get what you want?

This. No Catholic I know believes in transubstantiation including kids making their communion but parents want them to stand there and blatantly lie in public?

It's very messed up thinking.

Mrs OBumble

wnolan1992 wrote: »

What's boiling my piss more and more is, why the f*ck are we so stunted as a society that we have to rely on religion to give us that feeling of community?

One of the best things about Catholicism, especially in rural areas, is that it gets everyone in a locality together of a Sunday morning. But why can't we just, I don't know, say "Right, every Sunday morning, 11am, we'll have a coffee morning in the local hall. Coffee, tea, cakes, buns, activities for the kids, be great! We can all just come together as a parishcommunity and chat and socialise!"

Indeed. You may like to google Sunday Assembly, to find out more about just such a movement.

Guy:Incognito

splinter65 wrote: »

Why would you encorage your child to stand in front of a whole big packed room full of people and tell blatant lies and make solemn promises she can’t keep like that. Are you mad? Where’s the self esteem and pride and dignity she deserves? For money?!?

The whole religion is lies and fairy tales. Get a bloody grip.

Atlantic Dawn

If you have not been at the league games throughout the year you shouldn't be allowed buy tickets for the cup final.

Guy:Incognito

Rubberchikken wrote: »

Argue that religion has no part in schools. Want the kid to make first communion/confirmation for the day out (hair, nails, tan) but dont want tje effort of teaching them so expect the schools to do it.

Crappy hypocrites.

I dont know anyone that actively wants their kids to learn about religion. It just happens in school and is ignored as a subject , the time would be better spent as pe . If it wasn't done in school its not like itd be getting done at home instead, it just wouldn't get done. I don't know anyone of an age to have kids that go to mass.

One eyed Jack

Trey Quick Flame wrote: »

A priest in Enniscorthy has said that parents who want their children to make their Confirmation must attend Mass. I think he's right. People taking part in sacraments that are completely meaningless to them seems very hypocritical to me, and insulting to the people to whom they have religious significance.

I think he's being ridiculous if I'm honest. He shouldn't have bothered becoming a priest if he wanted to sit in judgement of others. That's really not his role in the Catholic Church.

Personally, I wouldn't see anyone who doesn't attend mass and wants to have their children participate in the sacraments as hypocritical. What's hypocritical about it? It's not up to anyone else to judge the veracity of someone's faith, or how they chose to practice, profess, indulge, or express their faith.

I don't see anything to be insulted about tbh. I do understand what you mean though, of course there are people who exist who take great umbrage and offence and actually get great satisfaction out of passing judgement on other peoples behaviour. It's not something I've ever been insulted by personally, and one of the nice things about it is that even though his parents identify as non-religious, I was delighted when they asked me to be my nephews Godfather.

wnolan1992 wrote: »

There's a very, very simple solution to keep everyone happy. Remove religious education (with a specific ethos, not actual education about religions) from schools.

Parents can then opt IN to extra religious classes (say after school hours have finished or in a Sunday School type scenario where while the parents are at Mass, the kids are in the local community centre doing Communion and Confirmation prep).

I genuinely believe people who so ardently oppose removing religious doctrines from schools only do so because they are too lazy to go to the effort themselves. They want their kid to be Catholic, but don't actually want to go to any effort in making that happen, they just want the school to do it.

There's an even more simple solution - build more schools and give parents more choice in the type of school they would wish to send their children to. That way, if there are alternatives available and parents decide to send their children to those schools, instead of a religious ethos school, the religious ethos school simply closes down, as every school receives funding on the basis of the number of pupils enrolled in the school.

I can only speak for myself so using myself as an example is unlikely to overcome your genuinely held beliefs about parents who are opposed to religion being removed from religious ethos schools (you can't remove religion from religious ethos schools anyway as they were set up to provide religious education in the first place), but no, I'm certainly not too lazy to go to the effort myself. It really doesn't take any effort at all really to set an example for my child, and I'm certainly not depending upon the school where the teachers are trying to teach an already packed curriculum that they simply often don't have time to devote to appropriate religious education.

It caused consternation previously when the parents in one school felt their children were ill prepared for Confirmation so I do agree with you in that sense at least that some parents expect more of the school than some schools have the resources to provide to meet some parents expectations for the education of their children.

VinLieger wrote: »

Ive encountered people who honestly believe its their right to have their childs religious education taken care of by the state.

Are you making the point that they're wrong? They're not wrong, they do have that right, as the State is obliged to provide for education. People who aren't religious also have the right to have their children's education taken care of by the State. The State, as ultimate guardian of the common good, is obliged to see that every child receives a minimum standard of education, and parents are not obliged to enrol their children in a school which does not align with their religious beliefs or world view. Those parents however must still ensure that their child receives a minimum standard of education, and of course they have the right to have their children's education taken care of by the State, whether religious or not.

They see the potential removal of the catholic ethos and them having to take over the role of religious education in their childs lives as a form of discrimination. I have actually had someone try argue that because they pay taxes their child should be taught religion in school, when i asked what about people who dont want that they literally couldn't grasp that they were in a position of privilege having their religion taught in school above all others and paid for with taxes and argued the removal of that privilege was discrimination.

Well, their argument is a bit more solid than your pointing out about their 'privilege'. The fact is that generally people pay taxes anyway which the Government considers revenue, and decides where that revenue will be allocated, and some of it is allocated to education, and distributed through the Patronage system. Now, if it were decided that patron bodies which provide religious education should be excluded from the Patronage system, then that would be discrimination. However, because non-religious bodies which provide education are not excluded from the Patronage system, but have an equal opportunity to apply as any other organisation providing education to the Patronage system, then your argument about privilege tends to fall flat on it's arse tbh.

Guy:Incognito

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I think he's being ridiculous if I'm honest. He shouldn't have bothered becoming a priest if he wanted to sit in judgement of others.

Is that not pretty much what the whole thing is? Telling you how to live your life then judging you for not doing it properly?

One eyed Jack

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Is that not pretty much what the whole thing is? Telling you how to live your life then judging you for not doing it properly?

That's a rhetorical question, isn't it?

As I said, that's not the role of the priest. That some priests imagine it is their role, doesn't mean they're right.

Donald Trump

Agricola wrote: »

It's such bollox. Friend of mine is having a humanist wedding, him and the Mrs are openly atheist, none of the a la carte catholic business, but they've had the kid baptized so they have a choice of national schools in the locality. They've decided to let the child go through all the catholic rituals/teaching in school because they don't want him excluded or feeling different. All that tripe should be removed from school hours and only attended to evening and weekends. Then we'd see who the real Catholics are.

Hypocritical spongers.

They want to be able to claim falsely that their child is a Catholic in order to be able to take advantage of a community that builds and helps run a school. There would be no restrictions on them getting together with like-minded people to organize and fund-raise to build their own school with their own, or none, ethos.

It's the same as a person who claims to be sick so that they can get disability dole or someone who comes to a country and claims asylum when they are fleeing nothing. Just falsely claiming something to take advantage and have a free ride off other people's backs.

As usual, it's an extension of the zero responsibility, everything for free, I'm special and entitled, mentality.

FunLover18

If the church actually gave a toss about genuine Catholics they wouldn't indoctrinate children who are too young to critically evaluate the concept of religion and decide for themselves whether they actually want to go through the sacraments (and that goes for all religions). I take issue with the hypocrasy of parents wanting a day out but the church is in absolutely no position to cast the first or any stone for that matter.

Bob_Marley

wnolan1992 wrote: »

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that that was a joke about parents who only view the Confirmation as a day out as opposed to you actually being angry that you don't get the day out anymore.

However, it brings up a point that has increasingly begun to bother me.

One argument people put forward for the importance of religion (and in this particular instance the Communion and Confirmation) is that their kid would "miss out on the big day out!" or "I'd like my kids to be baptised because I remember the community aspect of Mass being great as a kid, and I'd like my child to have that too!"

What's boiling my piss more and more is, why the f*ck are we so stunted as a society that we have to rely on religion to give us that feeling of community?

One of the best things about Catholicism, especially in rural areas, is that it gets everyone in a locality together of a Sunday morning. But why can't we just, I don't know, say "Right, every Sunday morning, 11am, we'll have a coffee morning in the local hall. Coffee, tea, cakes, buns, activities for the kids, be great! We can all just come together as a parishcommunity and chat and socialise!"

But no, we need the thread of mythical creatures shoving flaming hot pokers up our arses for the rest of eternity as incentive to get together.


It's pathetic when you think about it.

What's stopping you ? You'll get all walks of life and creeds, be nice.

Dozyart

splinter65 wrote: »

Why would you allow your child to stand in front of a whole church full of people and tell blatant lies like that. Are you mad? And you her parent standing there too, lying and smiling for no reason?
Will you continue through her teenage years encouraging her to have no self esteem dignity, pride or morals just to get cash?
I presume shoplifting or snatching handbags is a business desicion as well, it doesn’t matter as long as you get what you want?

Hold your horses there skip, while the business decision was a bit tongue in cheek,the fact is a survey of her class,of in and around 12 year olds before christmas said they believed in the story of santa being more credible than jesus!Kids arent buying the absolute bollix that religion classes are selling but every one of them do not want to be left out when it comes to day of dressing up and getting money....do you think the majority of people get married to be seen by the imaginary dude in the sky as man and wife??

But back to my daughter,she does have self esteem and dignity but she also wants to join in with her friends and not be left out,if i had my way she wouldnt be within 5 miles of the church,but its her decision,to join her friends,who are there because there friends are there,who are also there because there other friends are there....actually maybe we should set up a religion,its pretty easy to make people keep coming if you have the formuala right!!

lawred2

Donald Trump wrote: »

Hypocritical spongers.

They want to be able to claim falsely that their child is a Catholic in order to be able to take advantage of a community that builds and helps run a school. There would be no restrictions on them getting together with like-minded people to organize and fund-raise to build their own school with their own, or none, ethos.

It's the same as a person who claims to be sick so that they can get disability dole or someone who comes to a country and claims asylum when they are fleeing nothing. Just falsely claiming something to take advantage and have a free ride off other people's backs.

As usual, it's an extension of the zero responsibility, everything for free, I'm special and entitled, mentality.

The vast majority of schools in Ireland owned by the church were built long before the parents of today's children were born. So your notion that there's an army of volunteer lay people out there building schools for Catholics is deluded.

People send their children to the schools that are available to them.

It's not much of a community that calls others seeking to educate their children hypocrites and spongers.

iguana

We have a situation right now where three new ET schools are being forced by the department of education to only enrol half of their capacity as the demand for their schools is so high that the existing schools don't want to lose potential pupils. So parents who have campaigned and worked for a local ET (which isn't easy as some of the people with zero experience of it like to pretend it is to create strawman arguments) and gotten it. But now the schools that they never wanted to send their children to are forcing a situation to make them send them there anyway. It's like an abusive relationship.

threetrees

I think it's fair enough to have to attend mass, but then I go and bring my kids regularly anyway. I am also in favour of taking religion out if schools completely and doing a Sunday school type arrangement instead.

Where I live there are Catholic and ET schools. Being baptised isn't necessary for the Catholic school, the enrollment policy has no mention of baptism. It's a very well oversubscribed school too, but they don't give places based on baptism, it's all about siblings and catchment areas.

splinter65

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

The whole religion is lies and fairy tales. Get a bloody grip.

If it is lies and fairy tales then why on earth would the poster get his child involved with it to this extent?

splinter65

FunLover18 wrote: »

If the church actually gave a toss about genuine Catholics they wouldn't indoctrinate children who are too young to critically evaluate the concept of religion and decide for themselves whether they actually want to go through the sacraments (and that goes for all religions). I take issue with the hypocrasy of parents wanting a day out but the church is in absolutely no position to cast the first or any stone for that matter.

Newborn babies don’t walk to the church themselves to be baptized and the church doesn’t go around to houses asking parents to bring them.
Parents bring children to the church.
And please don’t give me any nonsense about there being “pressure to confirm” when that’s just not relevant any more.
We are living now in a multi faith and none society and if you are adult enough to bring a baby into the world then stop pretending that you were forced to baptize a child.

Guy:Incognito

splinter65 wrote: »

If it is lies and fairy tales then why on earth would the poster get his child involved with it to this extent?

Liars and peddlers of fairy tales have been known to run schools........

splinter65

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

I dont know anyone that actively wants their kids to learn about religion. It just happens in school and is ignored as a subject , the time would be better spent as pe . If it wasn't done in school its not like itd be getting done at home instead, it just wouldn't get done. I don't know anyone of an age to have kids that go to mass.

I’m getting the impression that you don’t get to know a lot of people outside your own small group.
All of our Muslim immigrants want their children to learn about religion and all practicing Christian parents do too.
You do realize that plenty of families still go to mass weekly? Why do you think churches and mosques are there at all?

splinter65

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Liars and peddlers of fairy tales have been known to run schools........

Are you unhappy with the way your child’s school is run? Do you fear tat your child is getting a substandard education?
I have one child and getting a good education was one of my chief concerns for her.
She’s in her degree now as so many of her class are so that’s worked out, despite going to a school run by peddlers of lies.
In this country we seem to manage to turn out mostly successful young adults despite your apparent allegations that the schools are somehow deficient for being under the control of the RCC.
How do you explain that?

hawkelady

The long and the short of it is that the priests want as many fools as possible to attend mass so when the baskets get handed around twice they might make soon extra coin !! Religion is a farce and numbers are dwindling thank god ( see what I did there).

Guy:Incognito

splinter65 wrote: »

I’m getting the impression that you don’t get to know a lot of people outside your own small group.
All of our Muslim immigrants want their children to learn about religion and all practicing Christian parents do too.
You do realize that plenty of families still go to mass weekly? Why do you think churches and mosques are there at all?

I'll be the first to admit I don't have many Muslim immigrants among my friend group. But then, was this thread not about communion and confirmation? Not sure that many Muslims partake in those.....

threetrees

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

I don't know anyone of an age to have kids that go to mass.

I bring my kids to mass but I don't preach about it. Many of my friends wouldn't know, it's not a secret, it just doesn't come up in conversation.

threetrees

hawkelady wrote: »

The long and the short of it is that the priests want as many fools as possible to attend mass so when the baskets get handed around twice they might make soon extra coin !! Religion is a farce and numbers are dwindling thank god ( see what I did there).

Both basket collections get handed straight to the diocese. Neither of the basket collections stay in the parish, that's what the 3rd envelope collection is for. It's ok, I know you are rolling your eyes (to heaven?).

hawkelady

threetrees wrote: »

hawkelady wrote: »

The long and the short of it is that the priests want as many fools as possible to attend mass so when the baskets get handed around twice they might make soon extra coin !! Religion is a farce and numbers are dwindling thank god ( see what I did there).

Both basket collections get handed straight to the diocese. Neither of the basket collections stay in the parish, that's what the 3rd envelope collection is for. It's ok, I know you are rolling your eyes (to heaven?).

Lol... there are 3 collections !!! Oh my GOD !!! This crowd are up there with seatwave !!

meeeeh

Mine are in a country school (class per year) where no one ever opted out of religion. Whatever about lack of my beliefs, I certainly wouldn't want them to be first kids that need special arrangements. The older one is too sensitive and younger one can't be trusted when she has nothing to do.

Anyway there are a lot of stay at home parents, mostly mums, and I think they actually like doing stuff around confirmation and communion. Add to that church cake sales, a bit of GAA and other fundraising activities and it keeps them busy for a year. I'm not being dismissive btw but those types of things offer social outlet to parents who stay at home. Couple that with the fact it's well run school and I see very little enthusiasm to change school ethos.

As for attending mass I really don't know what difference will it make forcing people going to the mass for a year except that the priest will be considered a bit of an arse. Btw what to do where one parent is atheist (in our example partner is taking son to mass and I stay at home)?

Oldtree

Blazer wrote: »

But seriously..how on earth would a priest know who's going to mass every week? "I'm sitting at the back father" lol

They've been taking and compiling notes for decades, and now with facial recognition software and small wireless cameras at each entrance......

They know you've been a bad boy!

LionelNashe

Trey Quick Flame wrote: »

A priest in Enniscorthy has said that parents who want their children to make their Confirmation must attend Mass. I think he's right. People taking part in sacraments that are completely meaningless to them seems very hypocritical to me, and insulting to the people to whom they have religious significance.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/confirmation-children-families-must-attend-mass-says-priest-1.3385833

Not sure what the parents' beliefs have got to do with whether or not the kid should be allowed make their confirmation. If we're saying that the kids aren't old enough to decide whether to go to mass by themselves, and to go to mass by themselves, regardless of what their parents do, then they're not old enough to confirm their baptism vows, which negates the whole point of the exercise.

One eyed Jack

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

I'll be the first to admit I don't have many Muslim immigrants among my friend group. But then, was this thread not about communion and confirmation? Not sure that many Muslims partake in those.....

To be fair though, your point was that you don't know anyone who actively wants their children to learn about religion. I believe you when you say that, but I wouldn't go extrapolating anything significant from it, like all the follow up points you made that really could only be applied to you and the people you know in that context -

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

I dont know anyone that actively wants their kids to learn about religion. It just happens in school and is ignored as a subject , the time would be better spent as pe . If it wasn't done in school its not like itd be getting done at home instead, it just wouldn't get done. I don't know anyone of an age to have kids that go to mass.