We need to talk...

sKeith

Pter wrote: »

So are we taking that as the only allowed wording of that rule, that each game mod MUST include in their game?

Would everyone be happy with a mod taking that rule out? Allowing no personal abuse at all? Would everyone be happy with a mod saying there is absolutely no abuse that will be frowned upon - go nuts.

Like we need some kind of guidance on this outside of game rules - i dont think my wording is sanitising the game - its just pointing out to new players its something to watch for and learn the ropes on.

The wording here is saying that warewolf is harsh, its part of the game, don't take it personally.

Your wording more like, "dont insult people, just in case they take offence."

Triceratops Ballet

Necrominus wrote: »

Yeah, Pter don't take this as us trying to knock your work, it's a good document.

I really just don't want to see the game sanitised and the more fun aspects of the game removed.

Werewolf isn't for the faint hearted. We all know that. New players should know that too.

I don't think this is sanitising the game, most of these rules exist in one form or another already.
This is a how to guide for beginners, to help them get to grips with what's going on, we know the rules and the boundaries but they don't, so it's a guide! Like we often get new players posting on the first day that they haven't a clue what's going on, or new players who get roled and have no basis for understanding the possible time commitment required and end up bailing (as per Buffy) I think anything that can help them get up to speed is useful

Baggly

sKeith wrote: »

The wording here is saying that warewolf is harsh, its part of the game, don't take it personally.

Your wording more like, "dont insult people, just in case they take offence."

The wording in the current rules allowed for a couple of players to hurl personal abuse at other players, who despite trying to not take it personally, did. Which is understandable. We are as likely to lose players that way as we are by the game being 'sanistised'.

My wording doe not say that at all. It says keep things in the game, make accusations go nuts, but dont make personal insults.

I think you are trying to paint me as a snowflake or something, and you seem to actually be ignoring what i am posting here in clarification.

Baggly

Necrominus wrote: »

My point isn't about how many times it needs to happen.

My point is that there's nothing we can do about it. It's up to the boards mods to determine if something has crossed a line, not the players or the game mods.

Well i disagree i think we can outline what can and cant be done before the game to make sure serious breaches dont occur. To say its in boards mods hands and we as a community can do nothing is washing your hands of responsiblity for any bad behaviour that happens. Of course we can do something about it.

sKeith

Pter wrote: »

I think you are trying to paint me as a snowflake or something, and you seem to actually be ignoring what i am posting here in clarification.

Lets stick to talking about the rules. I'm not a painter. If the discussion is rules, then thats what I talk about.

Necro

Pter wrote: »

Well i disagree i think we can outline what can and cant be done before the game to make sure serious breaches dont occur. To say its in boards mods hands and we as a community can do nothing is washing your hands of responsiblity for any bad behaviour that happens. Of course we can do something about it.

Pter I know you mean well but that's silly. I'm not washing my hands of the issue at all, just pointing out the simple facts.

Players see something they feel is off, PM the game mod, or if serious enough the forum mod.

Game mods can refer up the chain to the forum mod if necessary too.


Edit: Nine times out of ten a word in the ear of a player will reign them in enough without any serious action necessary.

We're back to focusing on the negatives rather than accentuating the positives of the game.

Baggly

Necrominus wrote: »

Pter I know you mean well but that's silly. I'm not washing my hands of the issue at all, just pointing out the simple facts.

Players see something they feel is off, PM the game mod, or if serious enough the forum mod.

Game mods can refer up the chain to the forum mod if necessary too.


Edit: Nine times out of ten a word in the ear of a player will reign them in enough without any serious action necessary.

We're back to focusing on the negatives rather than accentuating the positives of the game.

I also know where you are coming from; but there were complaints of personal abuse in the last game; im trying to find a way to address that.

Yourself and SK have given me suggestions to leave the rule the way it is, i just dont see how that addresses the complaints of abuse we saw in the game.

Im not being defensive or anything about this - im just trying to tackle the issues people raised in the last (and other) games.

Baggly

sKeith wrote: »

Lets stick to talking about the rules. I'm not a painter. If the discussion is rules, then thats what I talk about.

Fantastic - would you care to discuss the rest of the post you edited out of that quote....

sKeith

Pter wrote: »

I also know where you are coming from; but there were complaints of personal abuse in the last game; im trying to find a way to address that.

Yourself and SK have given me suggestions to leave the rule the way it is, i just dont see how that addresses the complaints of abuse we saw in the game.

Im not being defensive or anything about this - im just trying to tackle the issues people raised in the last (and other) games.

Why do you feel its your responsibility to fix broken people?
If somebody, in your opinion crossed the line against you in the last game, report the post. That's all you need to do, the forum has mechanisms in place already to deal with abusers.

Baggly

sKeith wrote: »

Why do you feel its your responsibility to fix broken people?
If somebody, in your opinion crossed the line against you in the last game, report the post. That's all you need to do, the forum has mechanisms in place already to deal with abusers.

It is our responsiblity as a forum to ensure the games are run well, and that we have a good stream of new players coming on board and sticking around.

Having an advisory on personal abuse and what is/isnt allowed will, i believe help that.

For someone who isnt a painter SK, you seem to be bringing this back to me an awful lot. Other have agreed with me on this thread, and there were complaints from other players on this issue. I think there are at least a few people who can agree to an advisory warning on this to new players.

sKeith

I am not a painter. I know people in D&D say they love my maps, but really, that's about the best of my artistic talents.

Any ref to 'you' is to do with the rule changes that 'you' are writing up, I, maybe silly of me, believed you wanted input from us about these.

The 2nd line, about reporting abuse, can be read as anybody/everybody, not you personally.

Baggly

sKeith wrote: »

I am not a painter. I know people in D&D say they love my maps, but really, that's about the best of my artistic talents.

Any ref to 'you' is to do with the rule changes that 'you' are writing up, I, maybe silly of me, believed you wanted input from us about these.

The 2nd line, about reporting abuse, can be read as anybody/everybody, not you personally.

Wonderful.

Mollyb60

Look lads, this rule is already in the OP of most games anyway, there's no reason why it shouldn't also be added to a guide for new players. I don't understand what this argument is about?

Yes everyone picks up things differently but there's no need for some new player calling someone's family in-bred hicks with monkey brains in a game. There's no harm just telling people that it can get heated but that serious personal attacks are uncalled for and will be punished by a game mod. If a comment really goes beyond the line the affronted player (or anyone else for that matter) can report the post and the forum mod, Sully, can deal with it outside the game.

sKeith

Mollyb60 wrote: »

Look lads, this rule is already in the OP of most games anyway, there's no reason why it shouldn't also be added to a guide for new players. I don't understand what this argument is about?

Yes everyone picks up things differently but there's no need for some new player calling someone's family in-bred hicks with monkey brains in a game. There's no harm just telling people that it can get heated but that serious personal attacks are uncalled for and will be punished by a game mod. If a comment really goes beyond the line the affronted player (or anyone else for that matter) can report the post and the forum mod, Sully, can deal with it outside the game.

Molly, in what game were the above comments said to another player?
That's a very specific slurr but i done a search in disney and can't find it.

Baggly

sKeith wrote:

Molly, in what game were the above comments said to another player? That's a very specific slurr but i done a search in disney and can't find it.

Your facetious responses to me and now to Molly aren't actually a useful part of discussion sk. If you have a point to make, why don't you try and make it.

Mollyb60

sKeith wrote: »

Molly, in what game were the above comments said to another player?
That's a very specific slurr but i done a search in disney and can't find it.

Jesus doode it's an example. Don't get your knickers in a twist about it. I tried to think of something horrible to say to someone to show how it's possible for people to take it too far.

Baggly

I'm gonna edit it down and take the comments people have said here on board. I'll put up a thread for beginners and hopefully it helps recruit long term members. If it doesn't we can kill the thread.

I'll put a note in on the abuse part about game rules and game mods being the ones to clarify what is and isn't allowed, and put in that there is often verbal tough and tumble. I think that covers everyone's pov.

sKeith

Mollyb60 wrote: »

Jesus doode it's an example. Don't get your knickers in a twist about it. I tried to think of something horrible to say to someone to show how it's possible for people to take it too far.

So, maybe we should put a sign outside every toilet in the country saying "Dont shít in the sinks".

Come on people, we are better than that, and if a bad egg comes along, we'll deal with that when it happens.

Baggly

sKeith wrote:

So, maybe we should put a sign outside every toilet in the country saying "Dont shít in the sinks".

sKeith wrote:

Come on people, we are better than that, and if a bad egg comes along, we'll deal with that when it happens.

Let's also not talk about abuse or bullying as a society as well, let's just deal with them after they come up.

Mollyb60

sKeith wrote: »

So, maybe we should put a sign outside every toilet in the country saying "Dont shít in the sinks".

Come on people, we are better than that, and if a bad egg comes along, we'll deal with that when it happens.

Keith you're being a bit of a knob about this whole thing tbh. Pete's trying to be helpful here and more than a few people have said it's a good idea. The document isn't for you anyway, it's for new players who are often lost in new games so you don't need to read it at all. Is it not better that a new player can read that and say 'right ok I know where the boundaries are for insults, great' rather than them getting reported for comments and getting a scary PM from the mods?

As I said before this same rule has been in multiple games up to now and you didn't seem to have a problem with it being spelled out then. Why are you getting yourself worked up about it now?

Necro

Ok... the way I see it.

Personal abuse is completely subjective.

It cannot be policed by a community, as we are bound by the rules of boards regardless of what the game mods put in or leave out of the rules.

So, breaking it down.

Someone calls me an idiot, arrogant, self important etc within the game of Werewolf... fine. No line crossed as far as I'm concerned.

Bringing outside things into the game, mentioning families, racism, ethnicities - insulting someone's children (all extreme examples but that's the point)

That's the no go area. We can't water that down imo, and we can't police it any more than we already have been doing.

Focusing on the positives of the game:

Werewolf is a game of lying and deception. Wolves will openly lie to deceive you and the rest of the players.
Some villagers will engage in robust, sometimes aggressive discussion with you. This is known as 'branch-shaking' and should not be taken to heart.

If you feel that a player has overstepped their bounds, please discuss with the game mods, or the forum mods if necessary.

Necro

Mollyb60 wrote: »

Keith you're being a bit of a knob about this whole thing tbh. Pete's trying to be helpful here and more than a few people have said it's a good idea. The document isn't for you anyway, it's for new players who are often lost in new games so you don't need to read it at all. Is it not better that a new player can read that and say 'right ok I know where the boundaries are for insults, great' rather than them getting reported for comments and getting a scary PM from the mods?

As I said before this same rule has been in multiple games up to now and you didn't seem to have a problem with it being spelled out then. Why are you getting yourself worked up about it now?

Ah but it's different Molly, I have the same issue tbh. For me it is watering down the very nature of the game. The current rule is fine, no need to change the wording imo....

Probably should be guidelines though. Again, unenforceable by anyone but boards mods essentially.

I didn't sign up to talk about lollipops and rainbows, I signed up to play a game which is in it's own nature aggressive.

sKeith

I can tell when my input is no longer wanted. I know i'm not great at taking the hint, but I hear it loud and clear. OUT.

Baggly

Necrominus wrote: »

Ah but it's different Molly, I have the same issue tbh. For me it is watering down the very nature of the game. The current rule is fine, no need to change the wording imo....

Probably should be guidelines though. Again, unenforceable by anyone but boards mods essentially.

I didn't sign up to talk about lollipops and rainbows, I signed up to play a game which is in it's own nature aggressive.

So, to the people who have raised the issue of receiving personal abuse, your response is that

there was nothing you could do in game about it
thats the game, get over it
the boards mod (sully) should deal with it

So basically, you have no issue with in game abuse, but if sully has a problem with it, she can do something about it?

No-one is suggesting talking about lollipops and rainbows exclusively. You are making light of the concerns of your fellow forum members when you say that; Reducing the argument put out by others to its most rediculous extreme isnt helpful Necro.

Necro

Pter wrote: »

So, to the people who have raised the issue of receiving personal abuse, your response is that

there was nothing you could do in game about it
thats the game, get over it
the boards mod (sully) should deal with it

So basically, you have no issue with in game abuse, but if sully has a problem with it, she can do something about it?

No-one is suggesting talking about lollipops and rainbows exclusively. You are making light of the concerns of your fellow forum members when you say that; Reducing the argument put out by others to its most rediculous extreme isnt helpful Necro.

I pointed out exactly what the difference was in my previous post. I advised how to deal with in the game.

I do not want a watered down version of a game. That's my input, which while might be different to others is still input.

Necro

Necrominus wrote: »

Ok... the way I see it.

Personal abuse is completely subjective.

It cannot be policed by a community, as we are bound by the rules of boards regardless of what the game mods put in or leave out of the rules.

So, breaking it down.

Someone calls me an idiot, arrogant, self important etc within the game of Werewolf... fine. No line crossed as far as I'm concerned.

Bringing outside things into the game, mentioning families, racism, ethnicities - insulting someone's children (all extreme examples but that's the point)

That's the no go area. We can't water that down imo, and we can't police it any more than we already have been doing.

Focusing on the positives of the game:

Werewolf is a game of lying and deception. Wolves will openly lie to deceive you and the rest of the players.
Some villagers will engage in robust, sometimes aggressive discussion with you. This is known as 'branch-shaking' and should not be taken to heart.

If you feel that a player has overstepped their bounds, please discuss with the game mods, or the forum mods if necessary.

Quoted for reference

Triceratops Ballet

Lads it's a guide for new players, it's not a set of rules that we're taking a blood oath on, everyone needs to chill out!

It's a useful document to explain how to play the game to anyone who wants to understand it.

Banjo

As a relatively new player, that post is not what I want to know. It's what the community wants me to know. Big difference. It doesn't tell the new player how to play.

My first post in my first game got me lynched.
Luckily it was a wild 3 1/2 day defense and I enjoyed the **** out of it but if I'd gone on the first night I'd be very disappointed and confused and frustrated.

I don't know what you can do to prepare a new player for this though. So this is not helpful feedback

Necro

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

Lads it's a guide for new players, it's not a set of rules that we're taking a blood oath on, everyone needs to chill out!

It's a useful document to explain how to play the game to anyone who wants to understand it.

I was asked for input, I disagree with two parts of it. Was giving suggestions on how to change it from my perspective that's all.

Triceratops Ballet

Necrominus wrote: »

I was asked for input, I disagree with two parts of it. Was giving suggestions on how to change it from my perspective that's all.

Fair enough I just feel like this was turning into a major convo on the rules which I don't think was the original intent