We need to talk...

sullivlo

... and as a community/group make a set of guidelines for games going forward.

Whatever about over on COP - that’s fair game - but here, on boards, there are boards rules that I have to adhere to.

And forgetting about boards rules - simple game rules and everyone agreeing to be on the same page in terms of what is expected of everybody.

Discuss.

Baggly

It's not just rules though. Every game has a set of rules. It's an agreement to not bend or flirt with the borders of those rules. Not find a loophole and take it without question.

We can come up with rules all day long and if the will is there to try and find ways around them, we might as well not have bothered.

Banjo

I've recused myself from WW. I thought I was tremendously clever and I was instead a tremendous arse. Everyone else followed the rules. Going forward it's not an issue.

Baggly

Banjo wrote:

I've recused myself from WW. I thought I was tremendously clever and I was instead a tremendous arse. Everyone else followed the rules. Going forward it's not an issue.

Well actually no not everyone did.

What do you mean not an issue going forward. I hope you will stay on and keep playing. It's important to learn from a mistake.

Banjo

Pter wrote: »

Well actually no not everyone did.

What do you mean not an issue going forward. I hope you will stay on and keep playing. It's important to learn from a mistake.

It's also important that there be consequences. My action was willful. Im not going anywhere but I'm at least sitting out a few rounds and any future participation will be at the mod teams discretion.

There may have been others but they conducted themselves properly in so far as you can in that situation, from what I can see. It was not an attempt to subvert the game as to keep minds focussed on the game at hand, not the meta surrounding it. There's a difference.

sullivlo

Pter wrote: »

It's not just rules though. Every game has a set of rules. It's an agreement to not bend or flirt with the borders of those rules. Not find a loophole and take it without question.

We can come up with rules all day long and if the will is there to try and find ways around them, we might as well not have bothered.

That’s what I mean. We all need to be on the same page.

- If a game is to be non-anon, everyone plays under their own account.
- People should not re-register on boards to circumvent these rules.
- Everyone, even game mods, should stick to the rules.

Baggly

Banjo wrote:

It's also important that there be consequences. My action was willful. Im not going anywhere but I'm at least sitting out a few rounds and any future participation will be at the mod teams discretion.

sullivlo wrote:

- If a game is to be non-anon, everyone plays under their own account. - People should not re-register on boards to circumvent these rules. - Everyone, even game mods, should stick to the rules.

Don't disagree but it would also be good to get some views from players and mods on what happens if there is a breach. It's very hard sometimes to kick a player and risk spoiling a game for a breach. How do you address it properly?

Like tbh the two rules you mention are gimmes. Do they need to be spelled out? I don't think so anyway. Certainly you ask the mods if you are any way near a grey area or something that isn't explicitly stated. It's going to be very hard to come up with a comprehensive set of rules that can't be exploited if someone wants to find a way.

Triceratops Ballet

That's the big thing Sully, when we run games we all want our game to be successful. Nobody wants to be the mod who's game collapsed (as one of those mods I can confirm it sucks). The problem is that this sometimes get put ahead of the integrity of the forum and so we tolerate little slips and rule breaks. For this to work everyone has to want it to.

sullivlo

Pter wrote: »

Don't disagree but it would also be good to get some views from players and mods on what happens if there is a breach. It's very hard sometimes to kick a player and risk spoiling a game for a breach. How do you address it properly?

Like tbh the two rules you mention are gimmes. Do they need to be spelled out? I don't think so anyway. Certainly you ask the mods if you are any way near a grey area or something that isn't explicitly stated. It's going to be very hard to come up with a comprehensive set of rules that can't be exploited if someone wants to find a way.

That is what I mean. I discovered the breach very early on in the game. By right, the player in question should have been banned, but the game would have been ruined.

So there needs to be a plan in place for situations like this. How do we proceed?

Do we operate a no tolerance policy? Is it graded, like is there a different level of rule breaks? Like does the deleted post from last night warrant a ban? Or just the rereg?

Banjo

Again, in that specific case, was the intention to break the game or to enjoy the game? I don't think you could argue that he was trying to derail it, apart from the way he plays but that's a whole other discussion I see his intention as benign and it didn't specifically become a problem until I made it a problem as a deliberate attempt to pervert the course of the game. My intention was malign, to break the rules in my favour, however noble I thought that break was at the time.

Baggly

Do we have a widespread problem with rule breaking? I don't think so.

Do we have a problem with one user repeatedly breaking different rules. Yes, in my opinion.

Like I have no problem with banjo playing again because he made a mistake and is obviously contrite. That counts.

But Tigger willfully broke a rule AND willfully went against the spirit of the game and what the mods laid out. And that's just in this game. It's happened in loads of games. He can come on and say whatever he wants, but after a certain number of times, things like this can't be rationalised away and there needs to be consequences that actually hurt him. Not a self imposex exile but one from our community saying 'this isn't on. We aren't going to let you keep doing this'....eff off for a while, basically.

Triceratops Ballet

Banjo wrote: »

Again, in that specific case, was the intention to break the game or to enjoy the game? I don't think you could argue that he was trying to derail it, apart from the way he plays but that's a whole other discussion I see his intention as benign and it didn't specifically become a problem until I made it a problem as a deliberate attempt to pervert the course of the game. My intention was malign, to break the rules in my favour, however noble I thought that break was at the time.

Does it matter? is it ok to break the rules if your intentions are good and you're pure of heart?

sullivlo

Banjo wrote: »

Again, in that specific case, was the intention to break the game or to enjoy the game? I don't think you could argue that he was trying to derail it, apart from the way he plays but that's a whole other discussion I see his intention as benign and it didn't specifically become a problem until I made it a problem as a deliberate attempt to pervert the course of the game. My intention was malign, to break the rules in my favour, however noble I thought that break was at the time.

The game was non-anon, as voted for by the participants. Reregistering on boards to evade the non-anon aspect of the game, for your own lols, is derailing IMO.

I would never have signed up had he been playing.

tritium

Banjo wrote: »

I've recused myself from WW. I thought I was tremendously clever and I was instead a tremendous arse. Everyone else followed the rules. Going forward it's not an issue.

Banjo, really hope you won’t step back because of this. Pissed as I may have been at the time I really do understand how this game gets to you and how some choices seem very logical at the time. I do hope you’ll stick around, and help us as a community to improve (both as players and how we do things)

Baggly

Banjo wrote:

Again, in that specific case, was the intention to break the game or to enjoy the game? I don't think you could argue that he was trying to derail it, apart from the way he plays but that's a whole other discussion I see his intention as benign and it didn't specifically become a problem until I made it a problem as a deliberate attempt to pervert the course of the game. My intention was malign, to break the rules in my favour, however noble I thought that break was at the time.

A vote was had to have a non anon game. The game was billed as such.

If you create a pseudo anon account, you have a meta advantage for the game over the others in the game.

It's not rationalisable. Even if it were it's not a decision for one player to go off and do on his own. He should be asking the mods who in turn will ask the rest of the players.

Triceratops Ballet

sullivlo wrote: »

The game was non-anon, as voted for by the participants. Reregistering on boards to evade the non-anon aspect of the game, for your own lols, is derailing IMO.

I would never have signed up had he been playing.

My sentiments exactly

Tigger

sullivlo wrote: »

That is what I mean. I discovered the breach very early on in the game. By right, the player in question should have been banned, but the game would have been ruined.

So there needs to be a plan in place for situations like this. How do we proceed?

Do we operate a no tolerance policy? Is it graded, like is there a different level of rule breaks? Like does the deleted post from last night warrant a ban? Or just the rereg?

I deleted the posts for the good of the integrity of the game and pm d necro to tell him
I am not the only person to have edited during the game tho am I ?

The re reg thing, well I wouldn’t advise anyone else do it I didn’t think it’s matter I underestimated the vitriol, you live youblearn

I have no intention of playing ww here again I said so to necro before Xmas that I’d like to playbhis game as my last and I didn’t feel that I could do so from my normal account

Any ways just ban me from WW and be done with it.

Banjo

Pter wrote: »

A vote was had to have a non anon game. The game was billed as such.

If you create a pseudo anon account, you have a meta advantage for the game over the others in the game.

It's not rationalisable. Even if it were it's not a decision for one player to go off and do on his own. He should be asking the mods who in turn will ask the rest of the players.

This was my first non-anon game. Every other player had a meta advantage over me. (Ironically with one exception).

Anyway, I'll leave it to the more experienced to discuss.

Tigger

Pter wrote: »

A vote was had to have a non anon game. The game was billed as such.

If you create a pseudo anon account, you have a meta advantage for the game over the others in the game.

It's not rationalisable. Even if it were it's not a decision for one player to go off and do on his own. He should be asking the mods who in turn will ask the rest of the players.

You weren’t playing so indont getvthe butthurt
I did ask the mods
They approved it

Word for word I said I won’t play in peters game cos he won’t wantvthat so I’ll rrwyite after yours necro

Baggly

Tigger wrote:

You weren’t playing so indont getvthe butthurt I did ask the mods They approved it

I have a stake in this forum whether I play each individual game or not.

Do not try to devalue my opinion.

Baggly

Banjo wrote:

This was my first non-anon game. Every other player had a meta advantage over me. (Ironically with one exception).

That can't be helped as you are new to the forum. I appreciate your contribution but I do feel the two situations we are discussing here (your breach and tiggers breaches) are different cases.

tritium

sullivlo wrote: »

That’s what I mean. We all need to be on the same page.

- If a game is to be non-anon, everyone plays under their own account.
- People should not re-register on boards to circumvent these rules.
- Everyone, even game mods, should stick to the rules.

I think this kind of nails a major issue for me. I know some players may think that non-anon they don’t get a fair shout because of meta. I don’t honestly buy that as anything like the problem it’s positioned as but if it’s so worrying, frankly, stick to anon. There are plenty of regular players who if they’re playing I have to watch that my meta preconception doesn’t unfairly tag them as bad and put village at a disadvantage from my bias- hell every time I see cross on here I probably think wolf. Similarly I’d expect wolves to exploit that. Strangely enough those players still manage to play very successfully. Honestly, there isn’t a player here who hasn’t had one or two stinking bad games, no ones so amazing they get killed for the sake of it imho so just get on with the game

Tigger

On the charges levied I plead guilty
Now if it pleases the court can we move to the sentencing

sullivlo

Tigger wrote: »

You weren’t playing so indont getvthe butthurt
I did ask the mods
They approved it

Word for word I said I won’t play in peters game cos he won’t wantvthat so I’ll rrwyite after yours necro

You don’t have to play in a game to be invested in it. We have huge traffic on the forum from non-players watching the game, to the extent that they sometimes report posts if they think something is wrong.

Tigger

tritium wrote: »

I think this kind of nails a major issue for me. I know some players may think that non-anon they don’t get a fair shout because of meta. I don’t honestly buy that as anything like the problem it’s positioned as but if it’s so worrying, frankly, stick to anon. There are plenty of regular players who if they’re playing I have to watch that my meta preconception doesn’t unfairly tag them as bad and put village at a disadvantage from my bias- hell every time I see cross on here I probably think wolf. Similarly I’d expect wolves to exploit that. Strangely enough those players still manage to play very successfully. Honestly, there isn’t a player here who hasn’t had one or two stinking bad games, no ones so amazing they get killed for the sake of it imho so just get on with the game

I’ve been first or second munched more times than anyone else last 4 non anon games iirc

Baggly

Tigger wrote:

On the charges levied I plead guilty Now if it pleases the court can we move to the sentencing

Great show of contrition there Tigger.

If you are actually done here as you say just leave?

Tigger

sullivlo wrote: »

You don’t have to play in a game to be invested in it. We have huge traffic on the forum from non-players watching the game, to the extent that they sometimes report posts if they think something is wrong.

Your saying I’m famous?

sullivlo

Tigger wrote: »

I’ve been first or second munched more times than anyone else last 4 non anon games iirc

Because you **** around with every game that you play in!!!!!

sullivlo

Tigger wrote: »

Your saying I’m famous?

Don’t flatter yourself

sKeith

Is a two month ban from playing ww an apropiate punishment?

Baggly

sKeith wrote:

Is a two month ban from playing ww an apropiate punishment?

No. He wouldn't be playing in the March game anyway.

sullivlo

sKeith wrote: »

Is a two month ban from playing ww an apropiate punishment?

And what about sanctions for those who knew the rules were being broken?

sKeith

sullivlo wrote: »

And what about sanctions for those who knew the rules were being broken?

Send them to the dungeons and throw away the key.

sullivlo

sKeith wrote: »

Send them to the dungeons and throw away the key.

Seriously :rolleyes:

Tigger

sullivlo wrote: »

And what about sanctions for those who knew the rules were being broken?

That’s not fair lifetime ban me don’t take itviutvonnanyone else

sKeith

sKeith wrote: »

Send them to the dungeons and throw away the key.

So who told you Tigger had permission to play on an Anon account?

Triceratops Ballet

Tigger wrote: »

I deleted the posts for the good of the integrity of the game and pm d necro to tell him
I am not the only person to have edited during the game tho am I ?

The re reg thing, well I wouldn’t advise anyone else do it I didn’t think it’s matter I underestimated the vitriol, you live youblearn

I have no intention of playing ww here again I said so to necro before Xmas that I’d like to playbhis game as my last and I didn’t feel that I could do so from my normal account

Any ways just ban me from WW and be done with it.

If you had any interest in the integrity of the game you'd have been upfront about who you were so quit it with the integrity bull

You didn't feel you could play with your own account, boo f**king hoo, whose fault is that

we voted on the style of play we wanted, non anon, that wasn't good enough for you so you were selfish (as per usual) and paid no regard to what the rest of the group think or want.

Tigger

sKeith wrote: »

Is a two month ban from playing ww an apropiate punishment?

Another one

Tigger

Deleted User wrote: »

So who told you Tigger had permission to play on an Anon account?

Don’t do that

tritium

Tigger wrote: »

I’ve been first or second munched more times than anyone else last 4 non anon games iirc

Great, how many times has vale been strung up because everyone thought he was a wolf again?Cross given special attention because we know he can be especially sneaky? If you’re getting killed early then maybe it would be better to ask if modifying your style is the answer. Most players on here have a range of styles that they practice, it even helps them get better.

Tigger

tritium wrote: »

Great, how many times has vale been strung up because everyone thought he was a wolf again?Cross given special attention because we know he can be especially sneaky? If you’re getting killed early then maybe it would be better to ask if modifying your style is the answer. Most players on here have a range of styles that they practice, it even helps them get better.

Ok point taken

quickbeam

Another wolf game over, another "what do we do about game breakers" thread created. It's deja vu all over again!! When does it end?

sullivlo

quickbeam wrote: »

Another wolf game over, another "what do we do about game breakers" thread created. It's deja vu all over again!! When does it end?

This was particularly “breaky” because there were more than one poster involved.

Baggly

If you are looking for suggestions sully ban the repeat offender, warn the first timer.

Triceratops Ballet

sullivlo wrote: »

This was particularly “breaky” because there were more than one poster involved.

do you have anything in mind to deal with it Sully?

sKeith

For the record,


This was a joke!

sKeith wrote: »

Sure thing,
ZeBigBoyha 84.25.78.6 &
DonAtellOh15 84.25.78.6

i read in the beast mansion that BH though my friends actually joined up, this was fictional, never happened. playing on the sign ups are closed... and are they really and would they let more in....

also for the record, there was no first tinkerbell who's posts mysteriouly dissapperaed. sKeith was talking to a fictionaly fairy who did not have the power to post. ( i like to call it my imagination, other would say i have a screw loose, either way, i like my quirks, u don't have too)

Necro

Folks look I don't want to get drawn on this but I'm going to take some time off to reflect.

I think I'm too addicted to this game. It was a 'get as many players' as possible so my mechanics would work.

I apologise to everyone and I'll bow out of the next few games.

Drumpot

Banjo wrote: »

This was my first non-anon game. Every other player had a meta advantage over me. (Ironically with one exception).

Anyway, I'll leave it to the more experienced to discuss.

Stick around. I’ve had a meltdown in games and threatened to quit games (albeit in back forums). To be honest I think I’ve been really embarrassed at some of my behavior at times.

It’s not cool but I think what’s most important is that I think I have learned. I helped out (a tiny bit) in one game and the work that mods put into these things is ridiculous, like I mean a lot of work. I expect to make mistakes if I play again but I hope I would be quick to hold my hand up and help fix it.

This has come up before and I don’t think people here want players thinking that mistakes or modkill incidents (like missing votes!) would drive people away.

I have taken breaks from the game but getting Necros message about the game is a nice reminder of what is mostly an accepting , fun community here.

By the way Mick , just to let you know , Stu is doing just fine:

sullivlo

Pter wrote: »

If you are looking for suggestions sully ban the repeat offender, warn the first timer.

And what about the allegations of the game mods knowing that there was a re-reg non-anon participating in the game?

sullivlo

sullivlo wrote: »

And what about the allegations of the game mods knowing that there was a re-reg non-anon participating in the game?

Probably need to ask what the full story is there first

sKeith

also. please never put the NO META rule into non anon games in future. this thread just proves that the two don't meld.