We need to talk...

tritium

sKeith wrote: »

Yeah, I learn't that one during this game, so, had to use it instead of just a dot.

If a site rule was broken, then let the site admins or site mods deal with that, all we need to do in future is add a rule that say, no multiple accounts, done. If people were ignorant to that site rule beforehand, then they can plead their case with people that matter about that call. You and I should not be party to that tribunal.

Re-reg is not against site policy, so, i could close my account today, re-reg as DestinyWeight4No1, sign up to the next game, and that is perfectly acceptable, by our current rules and by the site rules!

The re-reg point is a fair one, equally someone could just become a subscriber and change their name regularly. There has to be a distinction between breaching boards t&cs and the rules and etiquette we apply as players. For example using multiple accounts is a issue as a boards member and the forum mods should be the ones to sanction that. On the other hand TB for example changed her handle previously but made no attempt to hide it- it’s the etiquette we’ve sort of informally chosen to apply as players (Ecto did the same). Maybe it’s time to codify that a bit better.

Someone said we also need a hierarchy of rules, and I fully agree with that. In it to win is too broad not to be restricted as a subset of the ‘dont cheat’ rule for example. It’s a game that tends to make people a bit paranoid and intense while it’s live so there’s probably good sense in something that makes clear that while claiming to be nicely macNice the important villager quite vigorously is fine, hacking the CoP database isn’t (extreme examples I grant you). Basically the rule to me has always been you always try to put your team first, within the parameters and rules of the game.

MrsFlushdraw

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

What do you think should happen?

Ah come on TB, we need to let it go. Boys will be boys!

Banjo

MrsFlushdraw wrote: »

Boys will be boys!

#Timesup, you mansoginist!

Digital Solitude

tritium wrote: »

The re-reg point is a fair one, equally someone could just become a subscriber and change their name regularly. There has to be a distinction between breaching boards t&cs and the rules and etiquette we apply as players. For example using multiple accounts is a issue as a boards member and the forum mods should be the ones to sanction that. On the other hand TB for example changed her handle previously but made no attempt to hide it- it’s the etiquette we’ve sort of informally chosen to apply as players (Ecto did the same). Maybe it’s time to codify that a bit better.

Someone said we also need a hierarchy of rules, and I fully agree with that. In it to win is too broad not to be restricted as a subset of the ‘dont cheat’ rule for example. It’s a game that tends to make people a bit paranoid and intense while it’s live so there’s probably good sense in something that makes clear that while claiming to be nicely macNice the important villager quite vigorously is fine, hacking the CoP database isn’t (extreme examples I grant you). Basically the rule to me has always been you always try to put your team first, within the parameters and rules of the game.

I don't think we need a hierarchy of rules, why would we? Literally every sport or game defined by rules has them all in equal standing, unless they're explicitly not.

We seem to have settled the in it to win it rule as the one that caused the trouble, I wouldn't think it too great a mental leap to come to the conclusion that playing to win doesn't allow you to flaunt all the other rules. Play to win, but play by all the rules. It's hardly ground-breaking stuff.

sKeith

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

What do you think should happen?

Its the Game Mods game. Leave them the power to do with their game how they see fit.

If I mod a game and i have a rule, as long as it dont break boards.ie rules, i can enforce it how i wish.

i'll be available the whole game to answer any PMs from those who dont like it.

maybe all in game pms should be recorded.

posting the rules well in advance of the game is something i have callled for, dont give people the excuse that they late and just wanted to jump in.

Digital Solitude

sKeith wrote: »

Okay, just checked the disney rules. The only mention of cards is for editing.

3. No editing: DO NOT EVER EDIT A POST. IF YOU HIT THE POST REPLY BUTTON THEN LIVE WITH IT. YELLOW CARDS AND RED CARDS WILL BE HANDED OUT TO PLAYERS WHO EDIT POSTS


What are the sanctions for cards? Mod discretion

yellow card sanctions are that you have to say something silly on game thread?

how do you distinguish between getting a yellow card or a red card. Mods

Is making tiny ninja spelling corrections a yellow card offence? Yes

is deleting a post a yellow card offence? Red

is removing incriminating evidence from a post not worthy of a stiffer penalty than just a ninja spell correct? Mod discretion

what is the punishment for thanking posts from dead room? Warning on first, yellow on second

what is the punishment for unthanking posts? None

what is the punishment for not playing in the interest of your player or team and who is the judge, jury, and executioner of these debatable actions? Mods

should there be a seperate thread to keep record of these cards? how many games before cards disappear from your record?

Answers in post, I'd give a red for direct violation of a game rule.

I'd do cards on a game by game basis, for example 2 yellows = 1 red, 2 reds = modkill and a strike.

If it's noted that players are consistently picking up yellows, like 2 games in a row, Strike, a red two games in a row, 2 Strikes

3 strikes is 1 game ban
5 strikes is 3 game ban
7 strikes permaban.

Or something like that, might need more fine tuning or could be done on a play by play basis as I've no expiry on strikes.

So going by this, I think most of us would have a Red or two retroactively but would be reasonably unaffected going forward.

Triceratops Ballet

sKeith wrote: »

Its the Game Mods game. Leave them the power to do with their game how they see fit.

If I mod a game and i have a rule, as long as it dont break boards.ie rules, i can enforce it how i wish.

i'll be available the whole game to answer any PMs from those who dont like it.

maybe all in game pms should be recorded.

posting the rules well in advance of the game is something i have callled for, dont give people the excuse that they late and just wanted to jump in.

So you don't think we have a problem then? because this is what happens.

Mollyb60

Ok so these are the rules from the forum charter:

Game rules
The OP of each game will outline the general rules of the game being played, however the following rules apply to all games:
1) There is to be absolutely no editing of posts. There will be a zero tolerance approach.
2) Metagaming is very much frowned upon.
3) Things can get heated - you may be called a liar or untrustworthy, deceitful etc etc and that is part of the game. If at any stage you feel a personal attack outside of the remit of the game has occurred, report the post for the attention of the forum moderators who will respond as appropriate.

Can we agree here that these rules be updated? Maybe to something like the following?
1. Don't be a dick. We play for fun.
2. Obey game mods.
3. No editing or deleting of posts. You post it, you live with it.
4. No personal attacks on players. Try to keep your cool.
5. No posting of game PM's or backroom discussions.
6. No posting in the game thread if you are not part of the game. This includes dead people.

Any breaking of these 5 golden rules will be treated as a strike against a player. 3 strikes will result in a banning from future WW games.

sKeith

Modkill is too severe. saying something silly, while sort of working, can be used as an advantage, so you gain an advantage for breaking the rules.

can people not think of other punisments.

heres what i've seen mentioned

1) say something silly
2) modkill
3) strike, dont know who goes on strike, the mods or the player
4) ban the player.

so, thats the scale we have so far then?

quickbeam

Edit number 6 to including thanking posts?

sKeith

Digi, why do you have no punishment for the unthanking of posts? if there is no punishment, wont people do it?

[i don't mean unthanking DR thanks.... i mean, a live player realizing that he thanked a post that would incriminate them, so they remove their thanks]

duffman13

Just thinking out loud

Rules

1. Don't be a dick
2. If you edit/delete a post for whatever reason you will recieve a warning. If it is something game breaking delete the offending post and notify the mods ASAP with the context of said post. You will still recieve a warning.
3. Personal abuse outside the game world will not be tolerated. Niggle is part of the game but referencing outside life or something personal about posters is a cardable offence.
4. Any intentional game breaking is a modkill and an automatic 1-3 match ban

1 warning will be issued by mods, any further instances of rule breaking will mean a player being removed from the game at the mods discretion. If a player is a removed from a game for rule breaches they are automatically banned for the following game. The only exception is with new players where mods feel their was no malice in the rule breakage.

At the end of each game the lead mod should pass over a list of warnings issued to players.

3 in a 12 month period is a 1 game ban.
5 in a 12 month period is a 3 game ban.

Multiple bans and you face a permaban.

Pawwed Rig

Lads

I have been following this thread.
This forum is generally very well managed and the posters in general are courteous and polite to each other. In the whole history of the forum up to 3 days ago there were zero bans handed out. This is testament to you guys.

I would not get too upset about incrimental mod actions etc. Usually a quiet word can be had that will nip any problems in the bud.

Lets not reinvent the wheel here. The forum is working well and has been a great success. Long may it continue. A few tweaks may be needed but a whole overhaul is not required imo

Triceratops Ballet

duffman13 wrote: »

Just thinking out loud

Rules

1. Don't be a dick
2. If you edit/delete a post for whatever reason you will recieve a warning. If it is something game breaking delete the offending post and notify the mods ASAP with the context of said post. You will still recieve a warning.
3. Personal abuse outside the game world will not be tolerated. Niggle is part of the game but referencing outside life or something personal about posters is a cardable offence.
4. Any intentional game breaking is a modkill and an automatic 1-3 match ban

1 warning will be issued by mods, any further instances of rule breaking will mean a player being removed from the game at the mods discretion. If a player is a removed from a game for rule breaches they are automatically banned for the following game. The only exception is with new players where mods feel their was no malice in the rule breakage.

At the end of each game the lead mod should pass over a list of warnings issued to players.

3 in a 12 month period is a 1 game ban.
5 in a 12 month period is a 3 game ban.

Multiple bans and you face a permaban.

On 2 I would say if the post does not relate to the game, pm the mods ask their permission to delete and act accordingly you will still receive a warning. Under no other circumstances should a post be deleted.

I would also be inclined to say 3/5 consecutive infractions results in a ban, because not all players will play for 12 months or have 12 month playing history

sKeith

duffman13 wrote: »

Just thinking out loud

Rules

1. Don't be a dick
2. If you edit/delete a post for whatever reason you will recieve a warning. If it is something game breaking delete the offending post and notify the mods ASAP with the context of said post. You will still recieve a warning.
3. Personal abuse outside the game world will not be tolerated. Niggle is part of the game but referencing outside life or something personal about posters is a cardable offence.
4. Any intentional game breaking is a modkill and an automatic 1-3 match ban

1 warning will be issued by mods, any further instances of rule breaking will mean a player being removed from the game at the mods discretion. If a player is a removed from a game for rule breaches they are automatically banned for the following game. The only exception is with new players where mods feel their was no malice in the rule breakage.

At the end of each game the lead mod should pass over a list of warnings issued to players.

3 in a 12 month period is a 1 game ban.
5 in a 12 month period is a 3 game ban.

Multiple bans and you face a permaban.

Nice constructive post duffman.

sKeith

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

On 2 I would say if the post does not relate to the game, pm the mods ask their permission to delete and act accordingly you will still receive a warning. Under no other circumstances should a post be deleted.

I would also be inclined to say 3/5 consecutive infractions results in a ban, because not all players will play for 12 months or have 12 month playing history

i highlighted why i deleted a post in game. I do not think i done the wrong action overall. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=105815418

MrsFlushdraw

sKeith wrote: »

Modkill is too severe. saying something silly, while sort of working, can be used as an advantage, so you gain an advantage for breaking the rules.

can people not think of other punisments.

heres what i've seen mentioned

1) say something silly
2) modkill
3) strike, dont know who goes on strike, the mods or the player
4) ban the player.

so, thats the scale we have so far then?

What do you mean by this? we all say silly things :P

Necro

I have a major concern with all of a sudden implementing a punishment system tbh. The majority of games pass by with very little incident.

I think if you make it far too strict it sucks the fun out of the game, and the swathe of new players seen in the last 12 months (me included) start to dry up.

I don't like being strict and having to keep lists of warnings/cards handed out to players. In fact the only game I even saw a card handed out in was the Buffy game, and that was after the mods (myself actually) annoyed a player so much he had an outburst.

The community is incredibly inclusive at the moment, suddenly setting up off-putting barriers to new players will damage that. In fact, there really are not too many instances in which I can even remember anything drastic being required.

Simpsons Game - ok, fair enough. Rules were broken (not necessarily talking about the game-breaking aspect here). Personal jibes were hurled and the game was discussed off-thread. That wasn't right but the mods dealt with it in the right way and no repercussions were required. Players involved mainly learned from the experience and it didn't happen again.

Community - this was the major bugbear I guess. Having a game stopped was terrible, really was. There was a discussion thread set up afterwards and people aired their grievances. Again, most people learned their lesson and didn't repeat.

Repeated instances deserve punishment. Agreed. But I think introducing a system to punish is counter-productive to the community as a whole.

How many regulars have left in the last 6 months? How many more are barely able to play?

If we start introducing barriers to entry, hurdles to jump through... we'll wind up with no players at all. I get there need to be changes. I get there have been issues.

But rather than punishments, why not as was said earlier - implement guidelines and a 'how to?' if you would on how the game is played. I'll even provide the GIFs if needed...

Like the 'don't be a dick' rule is so silly imo. I'm a blatant dickhead in the game when I think I've found a wolf/pretending to have found one. Personal insults outside the game world are totally unacceptable, agreed.

Cards can't be implemented by game mods, it's not even possible. I'm not going to agree to keep a ledger of warnings handed out to players in a game. I have enough to do with making sure it runs smoothly.

sKeith

MrsFlushdraw wrote: »

What do you mean by this? we all say silly things :P

It has been the light punishment in a fair few games now.
Have you not seen this in action?

If not i'll dig out a few examples for you.

Triceratops Ballet

sKeith wrote: »

i highlighted why i deleted a post in game. I do not think i done the wrong action overall. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=105815418

you deleted it because it didn't relate to the game, it was related to a different game on a different site, so that scenario would be covered

sKeith

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

Yeah you deleted it because it didn't relate to the game, it was related to a different game on a different site

hence, i prefer duffmans rule 2 than your absolute, never delete. make a quick judgement call, if its game breaky delete, own up, tell the mods what happened, accept your punishment.

MrsFlushdraw

sKeith wrote: »

It has been the light punishment in a fair few games now.
Have you not seen this in action?

If not i'll dig out a few examples for you.

Do you take everything so serious? everyone says and does silly things, I am not talking about game breaking silly things, just silly in general

MrsFlushdraw

sKeith wrote: »

hence, i prefer duffmans rule 2 than your absolute, never delete. make a quick judgement call, if its game breaky delete, own up, tell the mods what happened, accept your punishment.

I agree if the post is game breaking, take a quick screen shot and delete and send the shot to the mods so they know why you did it. I would rather not have a game ruined over a mistake.

Triceratops Ballet

sKeith wrote: »

hence, i prefer duffmans rule 2 than your absolute, never delete. make a quick judgement call, if its game breaky delete, own up, tell the mods what happened, accept your punishment.

I don't think you should edit or delete a post. I think an exception can be made if it's a post you meant to put in some other thread, like you're actively playing another game, or in some rando conversation in AH. But any post related to the current game you should just live with.

Banjo

MrsFlushdraw wrote: »

Do you take everything so serious? everyone says and does silly things, I am not talking about game breaking silly things, just silly in general

No no no - I think he means the "post 'im a big dumb lame-o' with a monkey dancing gif" say-something-silly punishment for minor infractions.

sKeith

sKeith wrote: »

Send them to the dungeons and throw away the key.

sullivlo wrote: »

Seriously :rolleyes:

MrsFlushdraw wrote: »

Do you take everything so serious? everyone says and does silly things, I am not talking about game breaking silly things, just silly in general

obviously not, but i dont think it was appreciated

Digital Solitude

sKeith wrote: »

Digi, why do you have no punishment for the unthanking of posts? if there is no punishment, wont people do it?

[i don't mean unthanking DR thanks.... i mean, a live player realizing that he thanked a post that would incriminate them, so they remove their thanks]

I personally wouldn't have issue with that, maybe that's just me. I would thank or unthank certain posts depending on context

Maybe a simple restructuring of the rules is all we need

Baggly

If its going to be up to game mods to enforce, I think we should let the game mods set the majority of the rules. The rules molly listed above however appear in most games so I don't object to those.

A punishment hierarchy seems a bit of an overreaction given I think most of our problem issues have come from one player who has been banned now.

The isolated incidents should be handled by the game mods imo. I can't believe we will have more than one or two every couple of games, and I don't think that warrants a system of punishment, which as necro said will act as a barrier to mods and players alike.

Digital Solitude

Necrominus wrote: »

A long post

I would agree with you, I'd rather not have to go through the effort of keeping tabs on behaviour and other such crap, I had thought this was what we as a community wanted.

If the preferred option is to leave it to mod discretion to dole out in-game punishments, and we can decide as a group how to handle long term trouble/infractions then that sounds good to me, it's definitely how I'd prefer it.

If that's alright, I'm going to make a happy post somewhere.

Drumpot

I've written and deleted several posts while reading this thread because I haven't contributed much to the work and efforts that most of you guys invest in this game so don't want to antagonise anybody... I can understand people, who have put so much time into these games getting extremely angry with people spoiling them on any level.

That said, from a casual player point of view if I was getting bans for lapses in judgement or genuine mistakes I probably wouldn't stay around too long. Not because you guys don't have a right to rules and a right to enforce them, but I'm not looking to win anything, I'm only looking for a bit of craic.

Reading through how upset some people are getting, I get a sense of "follow the rules or f**k" off vibe . I think that's fine with regards to being regularly obnoxious, being a bully or INTENTIONALLY looking to spoil/ruin the game to win. But I don't think breaking some rules (like missing votes etc) warrant the same animosity. In short, I think most rule breaks are unintentional mistakes that are prob more down to being new to the game, laziness or lapse in judgement then anything else. But nobody is differentiating between intentional spoiling selfish behaviour or genuine mistakes and I think there is a difference.

An example for me from this game was the apple dynamic. I asked Mods if I was allowed to reveal info about the Apple. I think it was late and got a mod response which I sort of misread because I was tired, partially because of the game draining me!!!. Luckily I misread it in that I thought that I couldn't talk about the apple so I said nothing. Not sure if it was the next day when I realised the mod actually said "there is nothing in the rules that say you cant talk about it" or something to that effect. If I had , in my tired state, read that mod response as "you can talk about the apple" when they said the opposite, that would be an infraction which is fine. But I feel some mods would be more empathetic to me saying "I was genuinely tired" then others.

I suppose what I am trying to say is that all mistakes or rule breaking are not intentional or the same.