Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

prawnsambo

Scythica wrote: »

Not sure if I uploaded picture right...

but thoughts?

Looks fairly definite. WOC would be well clued in.

Squidgy Black

You would hope not considering they were still in with a chance of qualifying for the knockouts in the CC and have a strong footing in the pro14, telling a coach he's sacked but will still be in place for the rest of the season isn't exactly a recipe for success.

awec

Squidgy Black wrote: »

You would hope not considering they were still in with a chance of qualifying for the knockouts in the CC and have a strong footing in the pro14, telling a coach he's sacked but will still be in place for the rest of the season isn't exactly a recipe for success.

When else do you expect to tell him he’s gone? At least telling him now allows him to find alternative employment for next year.

The performances at Christmas were a complete joke. He has had his chance.

Squidgy Black

awec wrote: »

When else do you expect to tell him he’s gone? At least telling him now allows him to find alternative employment for next year.

The performances at Christmas were a complete joke. He has had his chance.

If that was the case, would it not have been better to have a caretaker in place (one of the assistant coaches or Gibbes) rather than having the head coach already knowing he's gone at the end of the season regardless of the result? And your players also knowing he's been sacked?

prawnsambo

I think Jaco is going to get his wish and the blazers are going to get pushed aside.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

When else do you expect to tell him he’s gone? At least telling him now allows him to find alternative employment for next year.

The performances at Christmas were a complete joke. He has had his chance.

Telling him now allows him to work out his notice period more like.

MJohnston

prawnsambo wrote: »

I think Jaco is going to get his wish and the blazers are going to get pushed aside.

I'm too pessimistic on Ulster to think this will happen anytime soon.

I continue not to blame Kiss, I think the problems are systemic and endemic. Blow it up and start again.

It's going to seriously start hurting the Ulster Rugby commercial side of things soon too.

I'm not surprised. The interpro's were bad but they're only as important as you make them. They don't give you more points in the league and if you're squad depth is in the can then you sacrifice the away fixtures.

This weekend though was clear as day a call for change. It was a funny weekend with Exeter also shítting the bed away from home but at least they got back into the game. Ulster were absolutely awful, there is no sugar coating how bad they were.

I know people think this is for the best as the final 8 teams would hammer Ulster but not necessarily. Ulster have done well against Wasps / LaRochelle but the consistency is wildly all over the place.

Kiss has to go and by all accounts it sounds like he is. The big story though is if there is a real appetite for change now.

MJohnston

I don't think you can point to any one particular result for a sea change moment for the opinion of Kiss. On paper, our season doesn't look all that bad, but it's what you can see in the performances and the passion (or lack thereof) from the players. It's possible to have a string of really bad luck and play teams that are just way better than you, and still come away from that feeling good about the team.

Right now it's the opposite, we've had some good luck results, some individual matches where there's a lot of passion on display, and our overall standing and results aren't particularly bad, but you come away from watching 9 matches out of 10 feeling like you're seeing a team without direction, self-belief, or energy.

bilston

prawnsambo wrote: »

bilston wrote: »

Jackson was a freak though.

He was. But 19 is well in McPhillips' rear view mirror at this stage, I don't see why he'd need to be wrapped in cotton wool now, seeing as there are not too many games left in the season.

I think Jackson was 18 when he made his Ulster debut against the Scarlets but I'm open to correction on that.

swiwi_

Not sure if already posted. But

Donald ducks Ulster...

Dog Botherer

awec wrote: »

That said, whiff of cordite tweeted that Kiss was informed he was gone after the interpro games, but I’m not sure how much of an in the know that guy is.

Whiff Of Cordite used to be one of the best rugby blogs out there, don't see them post much anymore but I'd say their sources would be pretty reliable.

Utah_Saint

Dog Botherer wrote: »

awec wrote: »

That said, whiff of cordite tweeted that Kiss was informed he was gone after the interpro games, but I’m not sure how much of an in the know that guy is.

Whiff Of Cordite used to be one of the best rugby blogs out there, don't see them post much anymore but I'd say their sources would be pretty reliable.

If true I suspect they are letting him see out the season?!

awec

Utah_Saint wrote: »

If true I suspect they are letting him see out the season?!

Could be as IBF mentioned, he’s been given his 6 month notice. As far as I know all coaches in Ireland have this clause in their contract.

prawnsambo

Do we start the Jono Gibbes countdown clock now?

bilston

prawnsambo wrote: »

Do we start the Jono Gibbes countdown clock now?

Is Jono Gibbes the solution or part of the problem?

I wouldn't advocate moving him on and would be keen to see what he can do with a pack including Moore, Murphy and Coetzee, not to mention some of the young cubs like McBurney and Dalton, but I wouldn't be rushing to the conclusion that he is the answer to all our problems either.

errlloyd

bilston wrote: »

I wouldn't advocate moving him on and would be keen to see what he can do with a pack including Moore, Murphy and Coetzee, not to mention some of the young cubs like McBurney and Dalton, but I wouldn't be rushing to the conclusion that he is the answer to all our problems either.

Reasonably safe bet that one of the motivators behind Jordi moving was his relationship with Gibbes? That doesn't necessarily mean he's a good coach mind you, Dominic Ryan probably went to Leicster to play with MOC.

prawnsambo

bilston wrote: »

Is Jono Gibbes the solution or part of the problem?

I wouldn't advocate moving him on and would be keen to see what he can do with a pack including Moore, Murphy and Coetzee, not to mention some of the young cubs like McBurney and Dalton, but I wouldn't be rushing to the conclusion that he is the answer to all our problems either.

Not sure if you understand what I meant by countdown clock.

As in when he's going to join Les and all the others on the ex-Ulster coach scrapheap.

bilston

prawnsambo wrote: »

bilston wrote: »

Is Jono Gibbes the solution or part of the problem?

I wouldn't advocate moving him on and would be keen to see what he can do with a pack including Moore, Murphy and Coetzee, not to mention some of the young cubs like McBurney and Dalton, but I wouldn't be rushing to the conclusion that he is the answer to all our problems either.

Not sure if you understand what I meant by countdown clock.

As in when he's going to join Les and all the others on the ex-Ulster coach scrapheap.

Ha got you now.

If someone new comes in to replace Kiss he needs to be given 3 years and just told to sort out the mess. Everyone will need to buy into that 3 year period and provided there are signs of progress then people should lay off said person's back.

Unfortunately that won't happen. If we lose a couple of games heavily the knives will be out again and it will build and build and build and within 18 months we will be back to square one.

I think we have to stop looking for short term solutions to a problem that has existed for not far off 30 years. We were the dominant province for about 10 years from the early 80s to early 90s and since then we've been playing catch up.

I've no problem with us signing a Piutau, Lealifilano or a Pienaar, but we need to cut out the Van Der Merwes and players of that quality. Build from within. Give a young guy (preferably local but certainly IQ) a chance instead of immediately panicking and signing the first second rate foreigner that becomes available.

prawnsambo

Yeah. I think I said this before, but the tired excuse of promising players heading across the water to Uni, doesn't wash with me. Those guys should be on the production line before they're out of short pants and there should be no talk of Uni on the mainland.

That's the problem for me. Ulster has enough raw material, certainly at least twice as much as Connacht as a baseline. There's something going wrong at entry level and it needs to be sorted.

b.gud

Paddy Jackson and Stuart Olding trial to start tomorrow

bilston

prawnsambo wrote: »

Yeah. I think I said this before, but the tired excuse of promising players heading across the water to Uni, doesn't wash with me. Those guys should be on the production line before they're out of short pants and there should be no talk of Uni on the mainland.

That's the problem for me. Ulster has enough raw material, certainly at least twice as much as Connacht as a baseline. There's something going wrong at entry level and it needs to be sorted.

There is no reason at all why we shouldn't at least be able to match Munster, yet with maybe the exception of a 2 year period around 2012-2014 Munster have been better than us for 20+ years.

The Lost Sheep

prawnsambo wrote: »

I think Jaco is going to get his wish and the blazers are going to get pushed aside.

Are they? How? Blazers run branch but there will stlll be those on committees. Its the professional side that has issues and the blazers have little to do with that

MJohnston wrote: »

I'm too pessimistic on Ulster to think this will happen anytime soon.

I continue not to blame Kiss, I think the problems are systemic and endemic. Blow it up and start again.

It's going to seriously start hurting the Ulster Rugby commercial side of things soon too.

You're correct in Kiss not being the issue and problem s systematic and it isnt really feasible or ever going to happen(starting anew). Im not sure if it will start hurting commercial side too much too a large extent. Performances going down but whats attendance levels been like?

prawnsambo wrote: »

Yeah. I think I said this before, but the tired excuse of promising players heading across the water to Uni, doesn't wash with me. Those guys should be on the production line before they're out of short pants and there should be no talk of Uni on the mainland.

That's the problem for me. Ulster has enough raw material, certainly at least twice as much as Connacht as a baseline. There's something going wrong at entry level and it needs to be sorted.

It is a factor but not as much as some portray it as. Kids will be on the production line/within age grade provincial teams before sub academy/academy but that doesnt mean a significant number arent going elsewhere for 3rd level so essentially ineligible for the academy. Ulster has plenty within schools rugby but how few from outside a select number of schools. Other provinces can and do get more from the "non traditional" routes and while ulster has issues others dont it still isnt good enough from ulster

padser

b.gud wrote: »

Paddy Jackson and Stuart Olding trial to start tomorrow

Yeah, saw that.

Hopefully both are not guilty, and if so, the very best of luck to them over the coming days.

prawnsambo

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Are they? How? Blazers run branch but there will stlll be those on committees. Its the professional side that has issues and the blazers have little to do with that

Well perhaps you should tell Jaco that. :pac:

bilston

The Blazers do have a place in the running of the domestic game in Ulster and all the provinces. At a more local level it's the Blazers that keep our local clubs running.

bilston

I think Kiss's race is run but I was just thinking a out how unlucky he has been.

It may be simplistic to say it but if we had Coetzee and Payne this season I reckon we'd have reached the Q/Fs in the Champions Cup and we'd be better of in the league where Coetzee would have been huge for us.

But to be a successful coach you need to be a lucky one.

irishbucsfan

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Are they? How? Blazers run branch but there will stlll be those on committees. Its the professional side that has issues and the blazers have little to do with that

In most provinces they have little to do with it, yes. Sounds like that'll be true of Ulster in the near future as well.

bilston

bilston wrote: »

I think Kiss's race is run but I was just thinking a out how unlucky he has been.

It may be simplistic to say it but if we had Coetzee and Payne this season I reckon we'd have reached the Q/Fs in the Champions Cup and we'd be better of in the league where Coetzee would have been huge for us.

But to be a successful coach you need to be a lucky one.

He's been unlucky, but even if things were going well you need a coach at the business end of the season that can hold their nerve and composure.

Les Kiss probably isn't a bad coach, but you can clearly see that he has lost his nerve and composure and the team simply won't respect someone like that.

If results had been good all season and he wasn't under pressure it would be fine, until half time in a crunch knock out game when it would have all come to the fore.

Decent bloke, doesn't deserve the vitriol at all and there are plenty of reasons why it hasn't worked. But he's not head coach material and that has become plainly obvious over the last 4 weeks.

I'm not sure about Gibbs either truth be told. The pack performance at the weekend was beyond poor with most of the forwards playing well below what they are capable of. It's not a great unit, but that level of capitulation was shameful to be honest.

Sinbad_NI

The Lost Sheep wrote:

Performances going down but whats attendance levels been like?

This is the first year in a long time that tickets for the Euro cup matches have been so freely available.
Must be a sign of reduced numbers.