Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

whatawaster · 21-01-2018 07:16PM

joseywhales wrote: »

Jono gibbes is a well respected no nonsense forwards coach as far as I'm aware, it's at odds with the ulster forwards display. It could be just as simple as lacking the talent. I mean the backrow is far off test level, so much so that hendo plays 6 and timoney is your starting eight, which is what you need to compete in the knockout stages of Europe(an international test level team) Like of that ulster 8 two players would marginally make the Leinster 8 maybe 3 would make munster, some of the starters , ie the props and backrow(ignoring hendo), might make the Leinster A starting team. I don't know why there is such poor depth but I don't think a new set of coaches is gonna fix it. Might be worth focussing on pro14 for two years and blood young talent (if it exists), maybe dump the expensive foreign players until you have a shot again. If you do get a new coach get a young one and make it a five year project with no expectations for the first 3.

I'm sure Stockdale and Henderson in particular would love that kind of strategy. They'd be off to Leinster, Munster or France

impr0v · 21-01-2018 07:20PM

jacothelad wrote: »

Next season, if the following players are fit or fit and available or simply available for selection:
Coetzee
Moore
Jordi Murphy
Jackson
Olding
Payne
and with some of the promising young guys being a year older, things might look a bit more interesting and hopeful. Still not enough to win much but less likely to be an embarrassment to the shirt.

I'd be afraid that Payne is done - the headaches thing is worrying to say the least and, if they stop, is he going to risk a reoccurrence after what he has been through to date? Also: while it obviously depends on exactly how the trial goes but, unless the charges are thrown out at an early stage, I suspect that there is a good chance that PJ won't play for Ulster again - even if he is ultimately acquitted.

joseywhales · 21-01-2018 07:27PM

whatawaster wrote: »

joseywhales wrote: »

Jono gibbes is a well respected no nonsense forwards coach as far as I'm aware, it's at odds with the ulster forwards display. It could be just as simple as lacking the talent. I mean the backrow is far off test level, so much so that hendo plays 6 and timoney is your starting eight, which is what you need to compete in the knockout stages of Europe(an international test level team) Like of that ulster 8 two players would marginally make the Leinster 8 maybe 3 would make munster, some of the starters , ie the props and backrow(ignoring hendo), might make the Leinster A starting team. I don't know why there is such poor depth but I don't think a new set of coaches is gonna fix it. Might be worth focussing on pro14 for two years and blood young talent (if it exists), maybe dump the expensive foreign players until you have a shot again. If you do get a new coach get a young one and make it a five year project with no expectations for the first 3.

I'm sure Stockdale and Henderson in particular would love that kind of strategy. They'd be off to Leinster, Munster or France

I understand that, they might leave or stay, that strategy is still ambitious for ulster in the long term. There were times in the past when bod or poc or pom, stayed with their provinces during rebuilding phases winning nothing when they could have easily gone to a top 3 European side with immediate success. That's the sacrifice of building success, commitment. Chasing success year on year with tactical signings etc. Is a losing battle without a long term strategy.

Granny15 · 21-01-2018 07:31PM

joseywhales wrote: »

I understand that, they might leave or stay, that strategy is still ambitious for ulster in the long term. There were times in the past when bod or poc or pom, stayed with their provinces during rebuilding phases winning nothing when they could have easily gone to a top 3 European side with immediate success. That's the sacrifice of building success, commitment. Chasing success year on year with tactical signings etc. Is a losing battle without a long term strategy.

Well in my mind today's performance was such a shambles I'd be looking at moving players AND coaches on. It was the limpest performance I think I've ever seen from an Irish province and I've seen Leinster cough up some limp performances over the years. I like Kiss I believe he has a good strategy and plans for Ulster. I don't know how good he must be at on field coaching. The pitch looked foreign to them today

awec · 21-01-2018 07:36PM

On the bright side lads just imagine what the quarter final teams would have done to our bunch of wasters. At least we won't have to suffer that indignity in March.

Utah_Saint · 22-01-2018 10:35AM

Ulster Rugby have officially confirmed Donald is not joining due to injury.

bilston · 22-01-2018 10:49AM

It's a shame but there is little point signing a player for 4 months knowing he will already miss at least 25% of the season.

Unless something extraordinary occurs I'd play McPhillips and be done with it. Give the guy a chance. He might rise to the challenge, he might not. He looks a good rugby player to me, whether he is a good out half is what we need to learn.

On another note doesn't Jackson and Olding's trial start today?

Clegg · 22-01-2018 10:52AM

Utah_Saint wrote: »

Ulster Rugby have officially confirmed Donald is not joining due to injury.

I've read that Donald was phoning it in while he was at Bath so missing out on him may not be too disastrous. Although Ulster still need to bring in someone to fill a place in the squad. Lot of pressure on McPhillips now as Herron doesn't seem to be up to much.

Hands off Joey tho.

awec · 22-01-2018 10:54AM

Think that’s our season over.

The focus has to be on qualifying for the super duper cup next year.

launish116 · 22-01-2018 11:12AM

Ulster Rugby really is like a soap opera... nothing ever goes right

Buer · 22-01-2018 11:15AM

bilston wrote: »

It's a shame but there is little point signing a player for 4 months knowing he will already miss at least 25% of the season.

Unless something extraordinary occurs I'd play McPhillips and be done with it. Give the guy a chance. He might rise to the challenge, he might not. He looks a good rugby player to me, whether he is a good out half is what we need to learn.

On another note doesn't Jackson and Olding's trial start today?

With Ulster now out, it's possibly the best situation, I think. He needs time to develop and he has talent. This could be the making of him and go a long way to bringing him to a level where he's a solid professional outhalf. I was not a fan of Donald coming in given his level of application previously in this part of the world.

Ulster will need to stand up in the coming weeks and ensure they secure qualification for next year. Regardless of whether Jackson is around or not, they should be looking at who is available for next season and hopefully Donald's non-arrival will provide some extra funding for that.

Buer · 22-01-2018 11:17AM

Clegg wrote: »

I've read that Donald was phoning it in while he was at Bath so missing out on him may not be too disastrous. Although Ulster still need to bring in someone to fill a place in the squad. Lot of pressure on McPhillips now as Herron doesn't seem to be up to much.

Hands off Joey tho.

When he was bothered, he was quite good. But, by his own admission, he wasn't bothered and he even stated that he was well overweight when there. When a guy seeks early release and his club happily agree to it, you know he has been a flop.

ClanofLams · 22-01-2018 11:29AM

Ulster are better off it fell through. Top 3 and automatic qualification for Europe their main aim now. Edinburgh their only competition for that and the next two games for both teams should open up a 10 point plus difference.

It’s three at the moment, Edinburgh have Leinster (h) and Ulster away whilst Ulster have Kings and Edinburgh home. If those games go as expected, top 3 will be close to being secured. Giving McPhillips a run of games is more beneficial in the long term than Donald coming in.

prawnsambo · 22-01-2018 11:40AM

Buer wrote: »

With Ulster now out, it's possibly the best situation, I think. He needs time to develop and he has talent. This could be the making of him and go a long way to bringing him to a level where he's a solid professional outhalf. I was not a fan of Donald coming in given his level of application previously in this part of the world.

Ulster will need to stand up in the coming weeks and ensure they secure qualification for next year. Regardless of whether Jackson is around or not, they should be looking at who is available for next season and hopefully Donald's non-arrival will provide some extra funding for that.

Johnny McPhillips is nearly 21. Paddy Jackson had just turned 19 when he got his first Ulster cap and was just 21 when he got his first Ireland cap.

Buer · 22-01-2018 12:34PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

Johnny McPhillips is nearly 21. Paddy Jackson had just turned 19 when he got his first Ulster cap and was just 21 when he got his first Ireland cap.

I feel like I'm missing a point here.

prawnsambo · 22-01-2018 12:54PM

Buer wrote: »

I feel like I'm missing a point here.

The point being that he's not too young to be getting starts for Ulster. He obviously will be, but the prevailing mood seems to be that he's still too young/inexperienced.

Or maybe I'm missing something.

Some Yoke · 22-01-2018 01:31PM

Would Luke Marshall be a stop gap fly half for some games?

bilston · 22-01-2018 02:03PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

Buer wrote: »

With Ulster now out, it's possibly the best situation, I think. He needs time to develop and he has talent. This could be the making of him and go a long way to bringing him to a level where he's a solid professional outhalf. I was not a fan of Donald coming in given his level of application previously in this part of the world.

Ulster will need to stand up in the coming weeks and ensure they secure qualification for next year. Regardless of whether Jackson is around or not, they should be looking at who is available for next season and hopefully Donald's non-arrival will provide some extra funding for that.

Johnny McPhillips is nearly 21. Paddy Jackson had just turned 19 when he got his first Ulster cap and was just 21 when he got his first Ireland cap.

Jackson was a freak though.

Buer · 22-01-2018 02:48PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

The point being that he's not too young to be getting starts for Ulster. He obviously will be, but the prevailing mood seems to be that he's still too young/inexperienced.

Or maybe I'm missing something.

I wouldn't disagree at all. Give him pleny of game time now. I don't think I suggested otherwise!

prawnsambo · 22-01-2018 02:56PM

bilston wrote: »

Jackson was a freak though.

He was. But 19 is well in McPhillips' rear view mirror at this stage, I don't see why he'd need to be wrapped in cotton wool now, seeing as there are not too many games left in the season.

irishfan9 · 22-01-2018 03:01PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

He was. But 19 is well in McPhillips' rear view mirror at this stage, I don't see why he'd need to be wrapped in cotton wool now, seeing as there are not too many games left in the season.

he isnt good enough

22-01-2018 03:05PM

Did Kiss give an interview after the game?

Half expecting an announcement from Ulster Rugby at this stage, Connacht and Leinster results were bad, but that performance at the weekend was an absolute shambles. Even with a poor pack the performance yesterday was AIL standard and an unforgivable level of intensity.

Something is extremely wrong when a teams efforts can be so wildly inconsistent. Gibbs has been a huge disappointment also, the pack are not world beaters but they were a disgrace yesterday.

prawnsambo · 22-01-2018 03:06PM

irishfan9 wrote: »

he isnt good enough

Compared to whom? In terms of available options, he's the best ten at Ulster. He's had a handful of caps so far, bit early to be writing him off.

jacothelad · 22-01-2018 03:33PM

Some Yoke wrote: »

Would Luke Marshall be a stop gap fly half for some games?

A number of years ago this would have been possible but McLaughlin turned a skilled 13 / 10 into a bash it up 12. I doubt Luke has played 10 since an A game about 5 years ago.

In terms of goal kicking, if Cooney and a decent 10 are out, Lyttle is pretty ace and McCloskey can but no doubt would need a lot of refreshing in that area,.

The current squad have too many weak links to ever win anything. This is exacerbated and magnified by a misfit coaching set up, dreadful selection policy (my dog Buddy could do better by rummaging in his basket and pulling out random names to play in the wrong positions. It doesn't take a highly paid coach to balls that up. Buddy would do it for a Bonio.),

There will be, can be, no quick fix. Let's face it, we have seen this coming from years away. We have replaced guys like Afoa, Court, Muller, Ferris, Wannenberg with, for example, McCall, Kane, O'Connor, Clive Ross and Reidy. Now they are not all bad but they are not the guys whose shirts they now fill. It's no wonder standards have collapsed. So it's not all to do with Kiss. Failure to develop home-grown players and importing useless dead weights time after time after time is a complete indictment of the non-playing managerial system. A lot of it is to do with the appalling structural ineptitude of Ulster Rugby. In a professional world, a bunch of alickadoo amateur blazers still wield disproportionate influence over nearly everything. Some of them even still get to travel around Europe with the team.

It will take a few years or more to turn this around. I don't think Les is the D.O.R. we need to do it. We need someone who will at least put some fire in the belly of our too polite and passive players. There was a time when teams feared coming to Ravenhill as they were met with - to use a current phrase, 'fire and fury.' Now they are met with little lambikins and cosy blankets. Phuque it. We need to get the killer instinct back. Bill McBride and Syd Millar must be appalled at the pass we have come to.

prawnsambo · 22-01-2018 03:48PM

jacothelad wrote: »

A number of years ago this would have been possible but McLaughlin turned a skilled 13 / 10 into a bash it up 12. I doubt Luke has played 10 since an A game about 5 years ago.

In terms of goal kicking, if Cooney and a decent 10 are out, Lyttle is pretty ace and McCloskey can but no doubt would need a lot of refreshing in that area,.

The current squad have too many weak links to ever win anything. This is exacerbated and magnified by a misfit coaching set up, dreadful selection policy (my dog Buddy could do better by rummaging in his basket and pulling out random names to play in the wrong positions. It doesn't take a highly paid coach to balls that up. Buddy would do it for a Bonio.),

There will be, can be, no quick fix. Let's face it, we have seen this coming from years away. We have replaced guys like Afoa, Court, Muller, Ferris, Wannenberg with, for example, McCall, Kane, O'Connor, Clive Ross and Reidy. Now they are not all bad but they are not the guys whose shirts they now fill. It's no wonder standards have collapsed. So it's not all to do with Kiss. Failure to develop home-grown players and importing useless dead weights time after time after time is a complete indictment of the non-playing managerial system. A lot of it is to do with the appalling structural ineptitude of Ulster Rugby. In a professional world, a bunch of alickadoo amateur blazers still wield disproportionate influence over nearly everything. Some of them even still get to travel around Europe with the team.

It will take a few years or more to turn this around. I don't think Les is the D.O.R. we need to do it. We need someone who will at least put some fire in the belly of our too polite and passive players. There was a time when teams feared coming to Ravenhill as they were met with - to use a current phrase, 'fire and fury.' Now they are met with little lambikins and cosy blankets. Phuque it. We need to get the killer instinct back. Bill McBride and Syd Millar must be appalled at the pass we have come to.

I'd agree with all of the above, except perhaps the selections. I had a detailed look at this a while ago and the conclusion I'd draw is that Ulster players have existed constantly in only three states: Injured, back from injury or about to be injured.

The whole season seems like it's literally been a choice between the latter two.

Seriously though, people have been on this thread regularly asking why LK didn't pick X, when X has actually been injured and the poster didn't know. It's probably impossible to keep up, to be fair. One of the later interpros, the team basically picked itself bar the omission of a couple of one cap wonders from the academy.

The Black Stags · 22-01-2018 04:12PM

There is no quick fix for this and getting the academy conveyor belt up and running is key. Ireland only have 4 provinces - one producing almost no young talent is of massive concern for the IRFU. Who has ultimate say here on how things are run? Can the IRFU appoint a 'fixer' to come in and change the structures to try to match better with proven systems such as at Leinster? Or is it all up to the blazers?

irishfan9 · 22-01-2018 04:16PM

The underage setup is improving just going to take time

awec · 22-01-2018 04:54PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Did Kiss give an interview after the game?

Half expecting an announcement from Ulster Rugby at this stage, Connacht and Leinster results were bad, but that performance at the weekend was an absolute shambles. Even with a poor pack the performance yesterday was AIL standard and an unforgivable level of intensity.

Something is extremely wrong when a teams efforts can be so wildly inconsistent. Gibbs has been a huge disappointment also, the pack are not world beaters but they were a disgrace yesterday.

I’d be amazed if his departure was announced mid season.

Behind closed doors though he must be getting heat. If he isn’t then that’s a failure on the part of Ulster and the IRFU.

awec · 22-01-2018 04:57PM

That said, whiff of cordite tweeted that Kiss was informed he was gone after the interpro games, but I’m not sure how much of an in the know that guy is.

Scythica · 22-01-2018 04:57PM

Not sure if I uploaded picture right...

but thoughts?

Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

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