Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

prawnsambo

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Well he says not coaching Munster is more about not coaching players he played with. Very few players left in Ulster he would have played with.

He does. But taking it with the comment about being involved with the Ireland setup, I'd add one and one and conclude that he wants to progress beyond club rugby.

I honestly think Ulster is too much of a poison chalice for an up and comer. You might back yourself to turn it around but you know you are coming into an environment where the daggers are going to come out quite quick and the squad may not be overly receptive to coaching.

I think the more likely choice is someone at the other end of their career. Someone who ideally doesn't really *need* the job but likes the sound of the challenge and has a track record of raising standards and identifying talent.

Despite the baggage, Richards would actually be a good shout.

$ausage$

I did indeed mean LK sorry

Dog Botherer

Ah lads, all the bleating about Grobler these last few weeks, and Dean Richards is being floated as an acceptable coaching choice for an Irish club?

He can get to fcuk.

bilston

Whoever it is needs to be given a free reign for a couple of years at least.

But I fear some posters will gradually begin to surface on uafc with rumours after about a year that the coach is doing a bad job for one reason or another and then before you know it this will become fact on uafc and then spread to Facebook and to the general Ulster rugby populace and then within 18 months to a year the new head honcho will be in exactly the same position as Kiss is now, as Anscombe was before that, as Williams before that and McCall (remember some used to call him Muckall?!) before and we will be right back to where we started. Meanwhile the players will remain absolved of blame busy picking up their hefty pay cheques (for many anyway) while appearing to not give a s*** on the pitch....sure it's the Ulster Way...

bilston

Also why do we appoint a director of rugby one year, then sack the coaches, replace the coaches with men the director of rugby wants in place, then sack the director of rugby thereby leaving his coaches in situ under the leadership of someone else.

As for local coaches, I'd be interested to see how Soper and Fallon would get on with more senior roles. Kieran Campbell seems to be doing a decent job with the As this year anyway.

hype101

I might have to look over my shoulder after this one but I'm going to make somewhat of a qualified defence of Les Kiss.

First, I just can't grasp why sufficient sympathy isn't factored in when considering the blow to playing resources this season, in the media or elsewhere. Consider the following:

1. Jackson/Olding - first choice out half and arguably second choice out half gone. Ulster needed another out half even before then;

2. Pienaar - first choice scrum half and key leader gone;

3. Coetze - huge and vital ball-carrier gone for the season;

4. Payne - yet to play/out indefinitely; and

5. Best, Deysel, Marshall have barely played.

That's like Munster losing Bleyendaal, Keatley, Murray, Stander and Zebo, with both Scannells largely not featuring. It's worse than what Ireland faced re Argentina in the RWC and for a whole season to date.

To me, they look demoralised and know deep down they don't have the quality to really compete against the best teams this season.

I think the legitimate criticism is the lack of fight at peculiar times. The Munster game over Xmas springs to mind. After an embarrassing performance against Connacht you would expect some fire in the belly and yet they just looked so flat.

I dunno, my instinct would be to stay the course. I think Ulster could turn the corner very quickly next season. 1. McCall 2. Best 3. Moore 4. Treadwell 5. Henderson 6. Deysel 7. Murphy 8. Coetzee 9. Cooney 10. ??? the big one 11. Stockdale 12. McCloskey 13. Marshall 14. Lyttle 15. Payne - that's a pretty serious side.

A quality out half to develop McPhillips/Lowry, another loosehead and back row over the next 6 months and Ulster will be back in business.

Be gentle

awec

There isn't sufficient sympathy because we were crap last season too. In fact we've been pretty much crap throughout Kiss' tenure.

jacothelad

Deleted User wrote: »

Stuart Lancaster would probably be the most ideal possible choice.

If he went I'd be absolutely sick tbh.

Lancaster seems to be a well balanced and intelligent man with appropriate levels of self awareness. He wouldn't touch Ravenspan with Hitler's lanyard never mind his own.:D

awec

bilston wrote: »

Whoever it is needs to be given a free reign for a couple of years at least.

But I fear some posters will gradually begin to surface on uafc with rumours after about a year that the coach is doing a bad job for one reason or another and then before you know it this will become fact on uafc and then spread to Facebook and to the general Ulster rugby populace and then within 18 months to a year the new head honcho will be in exactly the same position as Kiss is now, as Anscombe was before that, as Williams before that and McCall (remember some used to call him Muckall?!) before and we will be right back to where we started. Meanwhile the players will remain absolved of blame busy picking up their hefty pay cheques (for many anyway) while appearing to not give a s*** on the pitch....sure it's the Ulster Way...

I'd get rid of more than a few of the players too.

But ultimately replacing players is much more difficult given the restrictions.

prawnsambo

I've been saying something similar for a while now and got very little traction. I think Ulster supporters are extremely frustrated at the lack of progress over the years and just can't see any light at the end of the tunnel at this stage. It's hard to blame them because there are clear structural issues that have led to a situation where they can't produce more than a handful of homegrown players and are continually scraping the bottom of the Championship for likely stop-gaps.

Les Kiss probably landed at exactly the wrong time for him. He really had no chance, if, as the prevailing view is to be believed, he was stuck with a coaching team that weren't very good. So he eventually gets them out of the building, gets a good team in and instantly loses half of his internationals.

The job is now a poisoned chalice. If I were Jono Gibbes, I'd get the hell out of Dodge as quick as I can, because it's only going to become a stain on his CV that can't be erased.

The Black Stags

hype101 wrote: »

I might have to look over my shoulder after this one but I'm going to make somewhat of a qualified defence of Les Kiss.

First, I just can't grasp why sufficient sympathy isn't factored in when considering the blow to playing resources this season, in the media or elsewhere. Consider the following:

1. Jackson/Olding - first choice out half and arguably second choice out half gone. Ulster needed another out half even before then;

2. Pienaar - first choice scrum half and key leader gone;

3. Coetze - huge and vital ball-carrier gone for the season;

4. Payne - yet to play/out indefinitely; and

5. Best, Deysel, Marshall have barely played.

That's like Munster losing Bleyendaal, Keatley, Murray, Stander and Zebo, with both Scannells largely not featuring. It's worse than what Ireland faced re Argentina in the RWC and for a whole season to date.

To me, they look demoralised and know deep down they don't have the quality to really compete against the best teams this season.

I think the legitimate criticism is the lack of fight at peculiar times. The Munster game over Xmas springs to mind. After an embarrassing performance against Connacht you would expect some fire in the belly and yet they just looked so flat.

I dunno, my instinct would be to stay the course. I think Ulster could turn the corner very quickly next season. 1. McCall 2. Best 3. Moore 4. Treadwell 5. Henderson 6. Deysel 7. Murphy 8. Coetzee 9. Cooney 10. ??? the big one 11. Stockdale 12. McCloskey 13. Marshall 14. Lyttle 15. Payne - that's a pretty serious side.

A quality out half to develop McPhillips/Lowry, another loosehead and back row over the next 6 months and Ulster will be back in business.

Be gentle

For me Kiss hasn't done well in the job, he's had some problems with selecting players - which perhaps is due to other factors we don't know about. And there is very little structure or game plan visible on the pitch, just seems to be a lot of shoveling the ball on hoping something will happen. But he's facing problems that have been at Ulster for a long time and he's not able to fix them. He hasn't even acknowledged that there are problems there nor has he outlined a plan to fix them. There is no positive plan for the future coming from him.
But as you say if he had had more of his best players fit for matches our season would probably be a lot more successful.
I'd also raise issue with level of effort put in by the players, a lot of the performances have been nothing short of a disgrace.

Sinbad_NI

hype101 wrote:

I dunno, my instinct would be to stay the course. I think Ulster could turn the corner very quickly next season. 1. McCall 2. Best 3. Moore 4. Treadwell 5. Henderson 6. Deysel 7. Murphy 8. Coetzee 9. Cooney 10. ??? the big one 11. Stockdale 12. McCloskey 13. Marshall 14. Lyttle 15. Payne - that's a pretty serious side.

That's the issue though.... injuries happen in rugby and you'll never get this team out. The dropoff in quality of those coming behind is alarming.
Case in point at 9 & 10 this year... or anywhere in the pack.

jacothelad

prawnsambo wrote: »

I've been saying something similar for a while now and got very little traction. I think Ulster supporters are extremely frustrated at the lack of progress over the years and just can't see any light at the end of the tunnel at this stage. It's hard to blame them because there are clear structural issues that have led to a situation where they can't produce more than a handful of homegrown players and are continually scraping the bottom of the Championship for likely stop-gaps.

Les Kiss probably landed at exactly the wrong time for him. He really had no chance, if, as the prevailing view is to be believed, he was stuck with a coaching team that weren't very good. So he eventually gets them out of the building, gets a good team in and instantly loses half of his internationals.


The job is now a poisoned chalice. If I were Jono Gibbes, I'd get the hell out of Dodge as quick as I can, because it's only going to become a stain on his CV that can't be erased.

Kiss, a.f.a.i.k., has never played rugby union nor was he ever a head coach never mind a director of rugby. His 'expertise' was in introducing a rugby league style defensive system that worked o.k. in it's time but eventually opponents worked it out. Look at what Argentine did in 2015 to a narrow and passive defence.

On his arrival, Kiss quickly transformed Ulster from a team with an aggressive and very effective defensive set up organised by Dinger Bell. Examine the defensive guru's efficacy. Under Bell in season 2013/14-26 tries conceded. 2014/15 - 34. 2015/16 - 29 tries.

Kiss's arrival and the changes he introduced led to 2016 /17 - 47 tries against. In 2017 / 2018 in only 13 games Ulster have conceded 43 already with a few 'difficult' games still to come. Glasgow have conceded 18, Leinster 24, Munster 26 and Scarlets 21 in the same 13 game period. It's shyte squared. No manner of sophistry will change the reality of how a head coach with absolutely no experience of coaching responsibility has influenced the on field performance in a catastrophically bad way. The buck stops at the top.

The playing roster is at a low ebb. Year on year it has become weaker. Sometimes this isn't about a player or players having little talent but about decent players who have performed well in the recent past but over the last 2 seasons producing weaker and weaker, less effective performances. Players are human. They know when they are being sold a bill of goods. Remember when MOC was screwing over Leinster? I'll bet the players knew it despite them giving public support for his 'enjoyable' style.

No realistic rugby supporter would look at the team given it's injuries etc and think they were going to win the ERC or the Pro14 but the team has enough talent not to lose to Zebre, not to draw with Dragons, not to scrape past Treviso by a point, not to get a prostate exam by Connacht or get shagged senseless by Leinster.

The remedy is going to take a long time before the patient is out of intensive care but the remediation needs to begin a.s.a.p. Perhaps Nucifora might cast his talent in doing whatever he does at the IRFU in Ulster's direction and influence the restructuring of the whole shebang. maybe Jonno is the guy. He certainly knows what he is doing unlike Kiss.

prawnsambo

jacothelad wrote: »

Kiss, a.f.a.i.k., has never played rugby union nor was he ever a head coach never mind a director of rugby. His 'expertise' was in introducing a rugby league style defensive system that worked o.k. in it's time but eventually opponents worked it out. Look at what Argentine did in 2015 to a narrow and passive defence.

On his arrival, Kiss quickly transformed Ulster from a team with an aggressive and very effective defensive set up organised by Dinger Bell. Examine the defensive guru's efficacy. Under Bell in season 2013/14-26 tries conceded. 2014/15 - 34. 2015/16 - 29 tries.

Kiss's arrival and the changes he introduced led to 2016 /17 - 47 tries against. In 2017 / 2018 in only 13 games Ulster have conceded 43 already with a few 'difficult' games still to come. Glasgow have conceded 18, Leinster 24, Munster 26 and Scarlets 21 in the same 13 game period. It's shyte squared. No manner of sophistry will change the reality of how a head coach with absolutely no experience of coaching responsibility has influenced the on field performance in a catastrophically bad way. The buck stops at the top.

The playing roster is at a low ebb. Year on year it has become weaker. Sometimes this isn't about a player or players having little talent but about decent players who have performed well in the recent past but over the last 2 seasons producing weaker and weaker, less effective performances. Players are human. They know when they are being sold a bill of goods. Remember when MOC was screwing over Leinster? I'll bet the players knew it despite them giving public support for his 'enjoyable' style.

No realistic rugby supporter would look at the team given it's injuries etc and think they were going to win the ERC or the Pro14 but the team has enough talent not to lose to Zebre, not to draw with Dragons, not to scrape past Treviso by a point, not to get a prostate exam by Connacht or get shagged senseless by Leinster.

The remedy is going to take a long time before the patient is out of intensive care but the remediation needs to begin a.s.a.p. Perhaps Nucifora might cast his talent in doing whatever he does at the IRFU in Ulster's direction and influence the restructuring of the whole shebang. maybe Jonno is the guy. He certainly knows what he is doing unlike Kiss.

Bell hasn't exactly transformed Glaws since he got there. They're leaking tries at an equally alarming rate. It's pointless making comparisons with Munster or Leinster, seeing as they have well settled coaching teams, full squads and decent academies. Connacht likewise, although they have also had squad difficulties last year and suffered a pretty dire season as a result.

You might be correct about Kiss not being up to the task, but who can tell given the poor state of the roster?

These problems won't be solved overnight.

Edit: Les Kiss came from rugby league where all the defensive innovators have come from like Andy Farrell and Stuart Lancaster. Not sure how he could be out of his depth tbh.

$ausage$

bilston wrote: »

Also why do we appoint a director of rugby one year, then sack the coaches, replace the coaches with men the director of rugby wants in place, then sack the director of rugby thereby leaving his coaches in situ under the leadership of someone else.

As for local coaches, I'd be interested to see how Soper and Fallon would get on with more senior roles. Kieran Campbell seems to be doing a decent job with the As this year anyway.

I agree as in Faloon and Soper and others but not really Campbell. Yes the A's have done well this year but with the inventment in players and the coaching done at schools/clubs in ulster and leinster he has benefited. Talking to some guys I do not believe he has added anything to them in a coaching aspect.

However you have to give the credit when its going well as we are very quick to sling the muck when its not.

irishbucsfan

prawnsambo wrote: »

Edit: Les Kiss came from rugby league where all the defensive innovators have come from like Andy Farrell and Stuart Lancaster. Not sure how he could be out of his depth tbh.

Andy Farrell played rugby union to a very high standard and Stuart Lancaster never played league as far as I know.

Shaun Edwards is an example of someone who only played rugby league and went on to be a successful head coach at Wasps. But I don't think it really means anything to Kiss. I think I'd be a lot more concerned at the fact Kiss never had a top role before rather than never playing union.

prawnsambo

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Andy Farrell played rugby union to a very high standard and Stuart Lancaster never played league as far as I know.

Shaun Edwards is an example of someone who only played rugby league and went on to be a successful head coach at Wasps. But I don't think it really means anything to Kiss. I think I'd be a lot more concerned at the fact Kiss never had a top role before rather than never playing union.

You're correct about Lancaster. I knew he played for Leeds and just assumed...:o

I don't know why you'd be concerned that Les Kiss never had a top job before going to Ulster. Joe Schmidt didn't before he went to Leinster and that went well. Kiss was second in command to Declan Kidney and then Joe Schmidt and in between was interim head coach for Ireland. Very few of the previous Ulster coaches had top jobs of any note before taking over. Anscombe is the only one I can think of in recent years.

Of course it's not a given that you can transition from assistant to head without any issues, but surely the level of experience with other systems and head coaches would be of benefit? I presume you'd have similar concerns with Jono Gibbes?

irishfan9

if rumours are to be believed Kiss is done anyway... he had lost the fans, unfortunately once that happens there isn't an easy way back.. remember the only reason leinster moved on MOC was due to the fans and the toxic environment developing around the team due to MOC's brand of rugby and dealings with the media.

Utah_Saint

Nothing on uafc about kiss going, yet. Normally one or two of the guys on there are 'in the know'

prawnsambo

irishfan9 wrote: »

if rumours are to be believed Kiss is done anyway... he had lost the fans, unfortunately once that happens there isn't an easy way back.. remember the only reason leinster moved on MOC was due to the fans and the toxic environment developing around the team due to MOC's brand of rugby and dealings with the media.

I fully realise that. My point is that this has now become a habit at Ulster. Some, perhaps deserved their marching orders and maybe should have got them sooner, but from the outside (which is from where any prospective coach will be viewing things) it doesn't look like a palatable prospect.

The talk here is that Jono Gibbes is also on his last chance, despite only being in place for a handful of months. So that's the kind of poisonous atmosphere that wouldn't exactly be filling prospective coaches with the warm fuzzies.

mfceiling

Ulster had a coach years ago called David McMaster. He was my old maths teacher and another poster here will be aware of him.
He was properly frightening and you were in terror of making a mistake in front of him.
He coached our year to a clean sweep of played 17 and won 17. Very inventive for his time but he was a stickler for discipline.

I know he's way too old now (could be dead!!) but jesus someone of his ilk is what ulster need right now.

prawnsambo

mfceiling wrote: »

Ulster had a coach years ago called David McMaster. He was my old maths teacher and another poster here will be aware of him.
He was properly frightening and you were in terror of making a mistake in front of him.
He coached our year to a clean sweep of played 17 and won 17. Very inventive for his time but he was a stickler for discipline.

I know he's way too old now (could be dead!!) but jesus someone of his ilk is what ulster need right now.

The difficulty with being a disciplinarian is that you have to have a viable stick to wield. How viable is it to drop players who are under-performing when for many of them, there's no alternative that won't hurt the team as a whole?

prawnsambo

In other news, Allen Clarke has been appointed interim head coach at Ospreys.

Former Former

prawnsambo wrote: »

The difficulty with being a disciplinarian is that you have to have a viable stick to wield. How viable is it to drop players who are under-performing when for many of them, there's no alternative that won't hurt the team as a whole?

And when a player knows that he is essentially undroppable, then there's no incentive for him to improve his attitude or his performances.

Ulster need to move some senior players out the door, and a few others need to be reminded who is in charge, but the squad depth isn't there to make it a viable option.

irishbucsfan

What about Declan Kidney?

b.gud

irishbucsfan wrote: »

What about Declan Kidney?

Eddie O'Sullivan, sure he's only down the road

Dog Botherer

Has Jake White ruled himself out yet?

Paul Smeenus

Former Former wrote: »

prawnsambo wrote: »

The difficulty with being a disciplinarian is that you have to have a viable stick to wield. How viable is it to drop players who are under-performing when for many of them, there's no alternative that won't hurt the team as a whole?

And when a player knows that he is essentially undroppable, then there's no incentive for him to improve his attitude or his performances.

Ulster need to move some senior players out the door, and a few others need to be reminded who is in charge, but the squad depth isn't there to make it a viable option.

International opportunities?

I was a very, very late - and still not entirely convinced - addition to the Kiss Out gang. I didn't want McLaughlin gone. Anscombe had to go before he got Ulster into legal trouble. I was delighted when Kiss came in but he has delivered nothing - we have gone backwards massively. ( It did raise a wry smile when Prawn compared the job Bell had done with Ulster to the job he is doing at Glaws, and then, without batting an eyelid, said Ulster couldn't be compared with Munster or Leinster.)

I don't know how close we are to a restructure. There are noises that it may being the cards. If we could have a coach that knew what the hell he was doing while that restructure was underway, that would be lovely thanks.

A possible name for the future is Willie Anderson, maybe?

Paul Smeenus

Former Former wrote: »

prawnsambo wrote: »

The difficulty with being a disciplinarian is that you have to have a viable stick to wield. How viable is it to drop players who are under-performing when for many of them, there's no alternative that won't hurt the team as a whole?

And when a player knows that he is essentially undroppable, then there's no incentive for him to improve his attitude or his performances.

Ulster need to move some senior players out the door, and a few others need to be reminded who is in charge, but the squad depth isn't there to make it a viable option.

International opportunities?

I was a very, very late - and still not entirely convinced - addition to the Kiss Out gang. I didn't want McLaughlin gone. Anscombe had to go before he got Ulster into legal trouble. I was delighted when Kiss came in but he has delivered nothing - we have gone backwards massively. ( It did raise a wry smile when Prawn compared the job Bell had done with Ulster to the job he is doing at Glaws, and then, without batting an eyelid, said Ulster couldn't be compared with Munster or Leinster.)

I don't know how close we are to a restructure. There are noises that it may being the cards. If we could have a coach that knew what the hell he was doing while that restructure was underway, that would be lovely thanks.

A possible name for the future is Willie Anderson, maybe?