We need more Prisons

pjohnson

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I like it. But to save money do it when they are 20.

First offence just send them to the gallows. Save space having to house and feed them. I mean prisoners dont pay taxes

markodaly

Skip to 1:40

The majority of burglaries are caused by people out on bail, if these people were locked up and serving their sentences, then we would massively reduce burglary.

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Ah yes Privatised prisons - the American model.
How effective have they been in reducing crime in the USA?

Actually, massively.

weldoninhio

markodaly wrote: »

Skip to 1:40

The majority of burglaries are caused by people out on bail, if these people were locked up and serving their sentences, then we would massively reduce burglary.



Actually, massively.

Don’t be coming in here with facts!!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

markodaly wrote: »

How are you attributing that to privitisation of jails? I'm seen one report attribute it to being 18 years after Row v Wade.

For me, privitisation of jails is too open to corruption. More crime means more business so those who stand to profit will do support whatever measures means more inmates. And it won't be rehabilitation.

A_Sober_Paddy

hurler32 wrote: »

The Government announce Capital Investment programmes for Time, Im sure im not alone when I say we need a new prison or 2. The hard facts are we have no prison space hence hundreds are on Bail at any given time free to commit more crime like that poor Elderly Mans ordeal in Terenure this week. Others like those cousins in Limerick where the man dies as his house was been burgled get micky mouse sentences.
Dublin has lost count of the weekly shootings where as many parts of Rural Ireland are just burglary after burglary with no consequence . Extra Jails /Prison Space might help the lawlessness out there?

Sure one of our senators thinks womens shouldn't go to prison, and she's not alone. So good luck with getting more jail's,prisons

qwerty ui op

hurler32 wrote: »

where as many parts of Rural Ireland are just burglary after burglary with no consequence .

Can you name the parts of rural Ireland you're talking about?

khaldrogo

Just put all of the prisoners in place where the rest of the country avoid like the plague.......then put a wall around it.

Best use I've heard for limerick

markodaly

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

How are you attributing that to privitisation of jails? I'm seen one report attribute it to being 18 years after Row v Wade.

For me, privitisation of jails is too open to corruption. More crime means more business so those who stand to profit will do support whatever measures means more inmates. And it won't be rehabilitation.

Not privitisation of jails per say. I really does not matter who owns the prison so long a it exists in the first place. It is clear that Ireland does not have enough prison space.



The biggest factor in the decrease of crimes in the US is by locking people up.

If we locked up people and get them to serve their full sentence, crime in Ireland would be reduced.

Billy86

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

You're assuming those of us advocating more jails would like to see violent scum being released at all. Count me out of that assumption for one, anyway.

So if John leaves his door open without noticing, 19 year old Paddy passes by and tries to steal stuff out of the house, gets caught, arrested and found guilty, you'd be in favour of Paddy receiving a 100+ year sentence? A bit harsh both on Paddy and on the taxpayer, don't you think?

A_Sober_Paddy

Billy86 wrote: »

So if John leaves his door open without noticing, 19 year old Paddy passes by and tries to steal stuff out of the house, gets caught, arrested and found guilty, you'd be in favour of Paddy receiving a 100+ year sentence? A bit harsh both on Paddy and on the taxpayer, don't you think?

Well how many previous convictions does paddy have?

BowSideChamp

We need to build multiple prisons and introduce a three strke and your out law.

A_Sober_Paddy

BowSideChamp wrote: »

We need to build multiple prisons and introduce a three strke and your out law.

No that certainly won't work, I made things worse in the states

hurler32

hurler32 wrote: »

The Government announce Capital Investment programmes for Time, Im sure im not alone when I say we need a new prison or 2. The hard facts are we have no prison space hence hundreds are on Bail at any given time free to commit more crime like that poor Elderly Mans ordeal in Terenure this week. Others like those cousins in Limerick where the man dies as his house was been burgled get micky mouse sentences.
Dublin has lost count of the weekly shootings where as many parts of Rural Ireland are just burglary after burglary with no consequence . Extra Jails /Prison Space might help the lawlessness out there?

Do we though?
According to David Simon the man who wrote 'The Wire', The US has a higher incarceration rate than even China....where is it actually getting them? I would have agreed with you not so long ago but i'm beginning to think that high crime rates are the by product of an imbalanced broken society which can only be repaired by insuring that the Children born tomorrow and the ones still young enough are given a future of some prosperity.

The sad fact is many children in Ireland today are born into communities that have ladders with a higher up bottom rung than others so therefore they eventually turn to crime and drugs as a way of getting out of the hole they feel they are in. Im not making any excuses for some of the crimes perpetrated but rather than applying band aids to a gaping wound, perhaps its time they tackle the problem from the ground up and ensure that the communities of the future are given a fighting chance of flourishing. At the end of the day we are dealing with human beings and not statistics.

They could perhaps look at a number of other options too. For example, rather than engaging in this futile 'War on Drugs', they should look into ways of controlling the problem before it gets out of hand by providing some allowance but of course when there is political opportunity to put a drugs bust on the table the institutions and politicians will steer well clear of what is better for the whole and serve themselves.

BowSideChamp

A_Sober_Paddy wrote: »

No that certainly won't work, I made things worse in the states

Because locking up scumbags for life makes crime worse

Billy86

A_Sober_Paddy wrote: »

Well how many previous convictions does paddy have?

Perhaps you could tell is... Paddy!

Honestly though it could be as few as none (first time offender), going by the post patrick was quoting - https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105567591&postcount=5

4068ac1elhodqr

No need to build, any old barge ship will do:



The 'Vernon C. Bain Correctional Center prison barge' is docked near the Bronx, room for a few thousand or so.

end of the road

BowSideChamp wrote: »

Because locking up scumbags for life makes crime worse

no, but it costs the tax payer an absolute fortune for no reduction in crime. a 3 strikes law would bankrupt this state. we need longer sentences absolutely but we have to be realistic in terms of what we can and will actually achieve.

Roger Hassenforder

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Your idea is proven to be badly considered or followed through. It wouldnt work and would cause more crime through desperation. QED.

And as you still havent answered my question.
I can only assume youve just realised your own stance is as flawed as you believed mine!
As Hans might say, no need to ask for the fourth.

QED indeed.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

And as you still havent answered my question.
I can only assume youve just realised your own stance is as flawed as you believed mine!
As Hans might say, no need to ask for the fourth.

QED indeed.

QED most certainly. You admitted that you didn't know.

And what question did you ask that I missed? I vaguely remember something about mickeys and vags but thought you were being sarcastic, or was it something else?

Roger Hassenforder

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

QED most certainly. You admitted that you didn't know.

And what question did you ask that I missed? I vaguely remember something about mickeys and vags but thought you were being sarcastic, or was it something else?

I think you know PCB! I think you know.

Id be embarrassed to repeat it for a 4th time, might even fall foul of some badgering protocol

thesultan

hurler32 wrote: »

The Government announce Capital Investment programmes for Time, Im sure im not alone when I say we need a new prison or 2. The hard facts are we have no prison space hence hundreds are on Bail at any given time free to commit more crime like that poor Elderly Mans ordeal in Terenure this week. Others like those cousins in Limerick where the man dies as his house was been burgled get micky mouse sentences.
Dublin has lost count of the weekly shootings where as many parts of Rural Ireland are just burglary after burglary with no consequence . Extra Jails /Prison Space might help the lawlessness out there?

Bring back hangings?

markodaly

Deleted User wrote: »

Do we though?
According to David Simon the man who wrote 'The Wire', The US has a higher incarceration rate than even China....where is it actually getting them? I would have agreed with you not so long ago but i'm beginning to think that high crime rates are the by product of an imbalanced broken society which can only be repaired by insuring that the Children born tomorrow and the ones still young enough are given a future of some prosperity.

The sad fact is many children in Ireland today are born into communities that have ladders with a higher up bottom rung than others so therefore they eventually turn to crime and drugs as a way of getting out of the hole they feel they are in. Im not making any excuses for some of the crimes perpetrated but rather than applying band aids to a gaping wound, perhaps its time they tackle the problem from the ground up and ensure that the communities of the future are given a fighting chance of flourishing. At the end of the day we are dealing with human beings and not statistics.

They could perhaps look at a number of other options too. For example, rather than engaging in this futile 'War on Drugs', they should look into ways of controlling the problem before it gets out of hand by providing some allowance but of course when there is political opportunity to put a drugs bust on the table the institutions and politicians will steer well clear of what is better for the whole and serve themselves.

A number of points raised.

First of all Ireland has one of the highest and generous levels of welfare in the world, yet we will have big issues with crime in certain pockets of Irish society. How much more should we spend to solve these issues?

One of the major issues behind crime are broken families and the absence of a strong male father figure. Anytime someone mentions family values they get jeered at as if they want to bring back the 1950's, yet no one actually admits that they have a point. If you come from a broken family or raised by a single mother you are much much more likely to have a worse life than someone who was raised in a secure household. The facts on this are indisputable.

Lastly, we have no stick in Ireland, lots of carrot but no stick. Someone can go off and commit dozens of crimes and get no more than a few hours behind bars before they are on the street again. One option is of course to jail these people for longer. Or perhaps other solutions should be looked at.

twowheelsonly

There's an assumption on here that all prisoners (and by extension ex-prisoners) are scumbags. Speaking from experience I can tell you that they're not in all cases. They walk among you. They're amongst your friends and neighbours, in the pub or restaurant that you'll be going to tonight and in the band providing the entertainment, possibly even preparing your meal.

The Irish prison population consists of an awful lot of under 25s'. These mainly consist of fellas that are in and out of the system from 18 to 23/24/25, a lot of them for stupid, often drugs related, crime. Eventually they grow up a bit and snap out of it and are never seen in jail again. Some of them are clever and use the prison system to gain an education and/or qualifications that are useful to them. I don't generally consider anyone a habitual criminal until they're out of this age group. A pure 'guesstimation' would have 25 to 35% of these graduating on to habitual criminal status but there are a fair few that do extricate themselves from the system.

If a guy is still coming in and out when he's hitting 30 and beyond then he's generally left it too late and ends up doing 'life by installments'. The 30 to 40 age group actually make up about a third of the prison population at any given time. For the most part, but not all, these are the habitual criminals. If he's reached that stage of his life and is still committing crimes then IMO there's no point in spending any more money on trying to rehabilitate them. Strangely enough though, within prison they'd be the quieter prisoners and tend to use their time well working within the prison and getting little perks here and there. It's usually the younger fellas that cause all the trouble. The older fellas have been there and done that and just want it handier later on.

twowheelsonly

twowheelsonly wrote: »

There's an assumption on here that all prisoners (and by extension ex-prisoners) are scumbags. Speaking from experience I can tell you that they're not in all cases. They walk among you. They're amongst your friends and neighbours, in the pub or restaurant that you'll be going to tonight and in the band providing the entertainment, possibly even preparing your meal.

The Irish prison population consists of an awful lot of under 25s'. These mainly consist of fellas that are in and out of the system from 18 to 23/24/25, a lot of them for stupid, often drugs related, crime. Eventually they grow up a bit and snap out of it and are never seen in jail again. Some of them are clever and use the prison system to gain an education and/or qualifications that are useful to them. I don't generally consider anyone a habitual criminal until they're out of this age group. A pure 'guesstimation' would have 25 to 35% of these graduating on to habitual criminal status but there are a fair few that do extricate themselves from the system.

If a guy is still coming in and out when he's hitting 30 and beyond then he's generally left it too late and ends up doing 'life by installments'. The 30 to 40 age group actually make up about a third of the prison population at any given time. For the most part, but not all, these are the habitual criminals. If he's reached that stage of his life and is still committing crimes then IMO there's no point in spending any more money on trying to rehabilitate them. Strangely enough though, within prison they'd be the quieter prisoners and tend to use their time well working within the prison and getting little perks here and there. It's usually the younger fellas that cause all the trouble. The older fellas have been there and done that and just want it handier later on.

Is there a sense of Red's (Morgan Freemans) sentiments in the Shawshank, that prisoners become 'institutionalised' and perhaps suffer a little bit of separation anxiety from the four walls? Once they go back out into the world for example, they become this faceless entity that is out of touch with the way the world works and almost cling back on to the prison system like a child to the mothers apron strings?

As brilliant a comedy that Porridge was, it did explore this theme in the spin off 'Going Straight' where Norman was struggling to readjust to the world.

Roger Hassenforder

twowheelsonly wrote: »

There's an assumption on here that all prisoners (and by extension ex-prisoners) are scumbags. Speaking from experience I can tell you that they're not in all cases. They walk among you. They're amongst your friends and neighbours, in the pub or restaurant that you'll be going to tonight and in the band providing the entertainment, possibly even preparing your meal.

The Irish prison population consists of an awful lot of under 25s'. These mainly consist of fellas that are in and out of the system from 18 to 23/24/25, a lot of them for stupid, often drugs related, crime. Eventually they grow up a bit and snap out of it and are never seen in jail again. Some of them are clever and use the prison system to gain an education and/or qualifications that are useful to them. I don't generally consider anyone a habitual criminal until they're out of this age group. A pure 'guesstimation' would have 25 to 35% of these graduating on to habitual criminal status but there are a fair few that do extricate themselves from the system.

If a guy is still coming in and out when he's hitting 30 and beyond then he's generally left it too late and ends up doing 'life by installments'. The 30 to 40 age group actually make up about a third of the prison population at any given time. For the most part, but not all, these are the habitual criminals. If he's reached that stage of his life and is still committing crimes then IMO there's no point in spending any more money on trying to rehabilitate them. Strangely enough though, within prison they'd be the quieter prisoners and tend to use their time well working within the prison and getting little perks here and there. It's usually the younger fellas that cause all the trouble. The older fellas have been there and done that and just want it handier later on.

I see you're point, and in fairness, i wouldnt regard someone who makes a stupid mistake when young as a scumbag, and we should make genuine efforts to make sure they have 'mended their ways'. I would regard someone with multiple convictions as one though, irrespective of age.
These are the ones I've an issue with.

A_Sober_Paddy

BowSideChamp wrote: »

Because locking up scumbags for life makes crime worse

Because you jail a someone for stealing food, or smoking hash. In states quiet alot of people who fell fowl of the 3 strikes were proper poor people. Normally for very small petty crimes.

corner of hells

twowheelsonly wrote: »

There's an assumption on here that all prisoners (and by extension ex-prisoners) are scumbags. Speaking from experience I can tell you that they're not in all cases. They walk among you. They're amongst your friends and neighbours, in the pub or restaurant that you'll be going to tonight and in the band providing the entertainment, possibly even preparing your meal.

The Irish prison population consists of an awful lot of under 25s'. These mainly consist of fellas that are in and out of the system from 18 to 23/24/25, a lot of them for stupid, often drugs related, crime. Eventually they grow up a bit and snap out of it and are never seen in jail again. Some of them are clever and use the prison system to gain an education and/or qualifications that are useful to them. I don't generally consider anyone a habitual criminal until they're out of this age group. A pure 'guesstimation' would have 25 to 35% of these graduating on to habitual criminal status but there are a fair few that do extricate themselves from the system.

If a guy is still coming in and out when he's hitting 30 and beyond then he's generally left it too late and ends up doing 'life by installments'. The 30 to 40 age group actually make up about a third of the prison population at any given time. For the most part, but not all, these are the habitual criminals. If he's reached that stage of his life and is still committing crimes then IMO there's no point in spending any more money on trying to rehabilitate them. Strangely enough though, within prison they'd be the quieter prisoners and tend to use their time well working within the prison and getting little perks here and there. It's usually the younger fellas that cause all the trouble. The older fellas have been there and done that and just want it handier later on.

I work with quite a few ex prisoners , both male and female and you're right ,as they get older ,some have enough of that lifestyle and are finished with crime.
Takes a good few years for some of the younger ones to stop , often serving sentences going in and put till late twenties early thirties.

I've a couple of work colleagues who served prison sentences putting that life behind them including one with a murder conviction. I wouldn't call any of them scumbags and all contribute to society now.
Easy to tar everyone with that brush.

As for suggesting capital punishment and hundred year sentences , cop on ..people do rehabilitate.

markodaly

markodaly wrote: »

A number of points raised.

First of all Ireland has one of the highest and generous levels of welfare in the world, yet we will have big issues with crime in certain pockets of Irish society. How much more should we spend to solve these issues?

One of the major issues behind crime are broken families and the absence of a strong male father figure. Anytime someone mentions family values they get jeered at as if they want to bring back the 1950's, yet no one actually admits that they have a point. If you come from a broken family or raised by a single mother you are much much more likely to have a worse life than someone who was raised in a secure household. The facts on this are indisputable.

Lastly, we have no stick in Ireland, lots of carrot but no stick. Someone can go off and commit dozens of crimes and get no more than a few hours behind bars before they are on the street again. One option is of course to jail these people for longer. Or perhaps other solutions should be looked at.

Yeah i agree it certainly impacts on a child while not condemning or defining the child at the same time. It cannot be disputed. You have one parent struggling to do the job of two people and you also have the psychological impact of that absence or loss in the child's life.

The welfare provision you mention though is not just for people who are out of work. It is for carers, for people with disabilities, etc.

splinter65

Billy86 wrote: »

So if John leaves his door open without noticing, 19 year old Paddy passes by and tries to steal stuff out of the house, gets caught, arrested and found guilty, you'd be in favour of Paddy receiving a 100+ year sentence? A bit harsh both on Paddy and on the taxpayer, don't you think?

What did he hit John with? What did he threaten John’s wife with? What did John’s children witness?

end of the road

markodaly wrote: »

One of the major issues behind crime are broken families and the absence of a strong male father figure. Anytime someone mentions family values they get jeered at as if they want to bring back the 1950's, yet no one actually admits that they have a point. If you come from a broken family or raised by a single mother you are much much more likely to have a worse life than someone who was raised in a secure household. The facts on this are indisputable.

they don't get jeered at as much as you might think. the evidence does back this point up and i agree with you in relation to it.
however the problem is, we ultimately can't force people to stay together, and sometimes people shouldn't be together. we cannot have 2 parent families for the sake of it. we also can only do so much to force the parents who walk away to be in their children's lives.
the issue has no easy solutions or answers.