We need more Prisons

hurler32

The Government announce Capital Investment programmes for Time, Im sure im not alone when I say we need a new prison or 2. The hard facts are we have no prison space hence hundreds are on Bail at any given time free to commit more crime like that poor Elderly Mans ordeal in Terenure this week. Others like those cousins in Limerick where the man dies as his house was been burgled get micky mouse sentences.
Dublin has lost count of the weekly shootings where as many parts of Rural Ireland are just burglary after burglary with no consequence . Extra Jails /Prison Space might help the lawlessness out there?

Wanderer78

Probably wouldn't do much to reduce crime rates, might even increase them

hurler32

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Probably wouldn't do much to reduce crime rates, might even increase them

Well if we put 100 mid level Burglars in Rural Ireland in Jail where they belong as opposed to letting them operate freely, this surely would reduce burglaries In rural Ireland....?

Mint Sauce

Reopen Spike Island, and a few of the old Gaols, problem solved.

Wanderer78

hurler32 wrote:

Well if we put 100 mid level Burglars in Rural Ireland in Jail where they belong as opposed to letting them operate freely, this surely would reduce burglaries In rural Ireland....?

Roughly 60% of inmates re-offend upon release, so I'd say, it probably, overall, wouldn't do much. Out of sight, out of mind isn't working. Time to try something different

Guy:Incognito

One big giant filing cabinet type affair in the middle of the country would do the job.

hurler32

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Roughly 60% of inmates re-offend upon release, so I'd say, it probably, overall, wouldn't do much. Out of sight, out of mind isn't working. Time to try something different

Out of sight so for a longer period might be best!!

Victor

Preventing crime in the first place is much more important than locking people up.

hurler32 wrote: »

Well if we put 100 mid level Burglars in Rural Ireland in Jail where they belong as opposed to letting them operate freely, this surely would reduce burglaries In rural Ireland....?

Or, having attended prison, they have learned from others and become high-level burglars.

Guy:Incognito

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Roughly 60% of inmates re-offend upon release, so I'd say, it probably, overall, wouldn't do much. Out of sight, out of mind isn't working. Time to try something different

If they are going to reoffend anyway, the very least the good people in society deserve is respite while the criminals serve proper sentences between their crimes.

realdanbreen

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Roughly 60% of inmates re-offend upon release, so I'd say, it probably, overall, wouldn't do much. Out of sight, out of mind isn't working. Time to try something different

If prisoners are being released in order to free up space then of course extra prison space is exactly what's needed. As things stand crime pays and pays very well in this country and that includes white collar crime.

Wanderer78

It's time for us to be more proactive about crime, not reactive, building more prisons is a reactive measure, but reactive won't be easy or cheap

splinter65

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Roughly 60% of inmates re-offend upon release, so I'd say, it probably, overall, wouldn't do much. Out of sight, out of mind isn't working. Time to try something different

For instance Wanderer, bearing in mind we need to protect normal ordinary people living decent lives while at the same time trying to rehabilitate the offenders causing so much misery.

Wanderer78

splinter65 wrote:

For instance Wanderer, bearing in mind we need to protect normal ordinary people living decent lives while at the same time trying to rehabilitate the offenders causing so much misery.

Completely agree, but it seems like we're failing on this one

realdanbreen

Wanderer78 wrote: »

It's time for us to be more proactive about crime, not reactive, building more prisons is a reactive measure, but reactive won't be easy or cheap

So how can we be more 'proactive' about guys like those who broke into a house in Limerick and beat and robbed an old man and his two old sisters? Bearing in mind all three individuals had multiple previous convictions.

Will_gamble

So true!

whisky_galore

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Completely agree, but it seems like we're failing on this one

Failing on every front, criminals look on being sent to prison now as a short-term minor inconvenience. They're not afraid of the demoralised guards anymore.

Kimbot

You could build all the prisons in the world and there still will be people out on bail etc, no matter how many you build they will fill up.

D3V!L

Reopen Spike Island and privatize it. Then put out to tender 2 or 3 other prisons, also privatized.

RobbieTheRobber

D3V!L wrote: »

Reopen Spike Island and privatize it. Then put out to tender 2 or 3 other prisons, also privatized.

Ah yes Privatised prisons - the American model.
How effective have they been in reducing crime in the USA?

We need better re-education programmes and good jobs for them once they're released. What happens when they're released? Left with a record, and the same environmental factors that put them in there in the first place. The focus should be on rehabilitation with the aim of producing valuable members of society.

Prison time in itself doesn't work. Offering those who have served their sentences a viable lifestyle once they leave is a far better option. And throw in stronger sentencing against those that do re-offend... but ffs offer some decent carrots for them not to re-offend. Not handouts. Not freebies. But a potential career that provides a reasonable income, prospects for advancement, and the opportunity to wipe clean the record of their previous conviction, allowing them to rejoin society as members, not "past" criminals.

I am in favor of capital punishment for repeat offenders, especially for violent crimes... But since that's never going to be allowed in, let's start rehabilitating them.

Guy:Incognito

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Ah yes Privatised prisons - the American model.
How effective have they been in reducing crime in the USA?

It's reduced by 100% while they are inside.

Get Real

Even when criminals are arrested and brought to court, they are usually either bailed due to not enough space in remand prisons, or sent to prison but released at the discretion of the governor the following day due to lack of space.

This means, they are out and available to commit more crimes, creating more victims, paperwork and costs on the state.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/revealed-suspect-who-forced-vulnerable-man-to-withdraw-17k-in-aggravated-burglary-was-out-on-bail-for-three-separate-knife-offences-36410785.html

This fella was bailed and just went and committed an aggravated burglary. If the courts system dealt with it within a week, rather than bailing for various dates with months in between of freedom, repeat offenders would not be out wasting various resources.

splinter65

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Completely agree, but it seems like we're failing on this one

Wanderer I was asking you for a suggestion as to how we can improve the lives of innocent decent living people who are being tortured with fear?
I’m afraid you come across as really only concerned about the welfare and future of the offenders.

RobbieTheRobber

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

It's reduced by 100% while they are inside.

So lock up one person in a private prison and american crime is reduced 100%?

Turtyturd

Get Real wrote: »

Even when criminals are arrested and brought to court, they are usually either bailed due to not enough space in remand prisons, or sent to prison but released at the discretion of the governor the following day due to lack of space.

This means, they are out and available to commit more crimes, creating more victims, paperwork and costs on the state.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/revealed-suspect-who-forced-vulnerable-man-to-withdraw-17k-in-aggravated-burglary-was-out-on-bail-for-three-separate-knife-offences-36410785.html

This fella was bailed and just went and committed an aggravated burglary. If the courts system dealt with it within a week, rather than bailing for various dates with months in between of freedom, repeat offenders would not be out wasting various resources.

Only happens if you haven’t paid a fine.

Turtyturd

[Deleted User] wrote: »

We need better re-education programmes and good jobs for them once they're released. What happens when they're released? Left with a record, and the same environmental factors that put them in there in the first place. The focus should be on rehabilitation with the aim of producing valuable members of society.

Prison time in itself doesn't work. Offering those who have served their sentences a viable lifestyle once they leave is a far better option. And throw in stronger sentencing against those that do re-offend... but ffs offer some decent carrots for them not to re-offend. Not handouts. Not freebies. But a potential career that provides a reasonable income, prospects for advancement, and the opportunity to wipe clean the record of their previous conviction, allowing them to rejoin society as members, not "past" criminals.

I am in favor of capital punishment for repeat offenders, especially for violent crimes... But since that's never going to be allowed in, let's start rehabilitating them.

Would agree with this. Reform of the prison service is needed and the rehabilitation aspect is failing badly as the service is full of officers whose only interest is their pension.

splinter65

[Deleted User] wrote: »

We need better re-education programmes and good jobs for them once they're released. What happens when they're released? Left with a record, and the same environmental factors that put them in there in the first place. The focus should be on rehabilitation with the aim of producing valuable members of society.

Prison time in itself doesn't work. Offering those who have served their sentences a viable lifestyle once they leave is a far better option. And throw in stronger sentencing against those that do re-offend... but ffs offer some decent carrots for them not to re-offend. Not handouts. Not freebies. But a potential career that provides a reasonable income, prospects for advancement, and the opportunity to wipe clean the record of their previous conviction, allowing them to rejoin society as members, not "past" criminals.

I am in favor of capital punishment for repeat offenders, especially for violent crimes... But since that's never going to be allowed in, let's start rehabilitating them.

Your talking about, for the most part, unemployable people.
They come from a background where nobody has finished secondary school, nobody has ever had a job and there is an unshakeable sense of entitlements and rights but no idea about obligations and personal responsibility.
There is also substance addictions, mental health issues brought about from the addiction issues and chaotic lifestyle.
All the while you think you are rehabilitating them, they are planning the next robbery.
These are people who have no hesitation hitting an old woman in the face with a Hurley or tying up a small child.
They are not misunderstood creatures. They come from houses where there are 5 or 6 iPhone 7s a 52” Telly and an Audi parked out front.
They go to magaluf on holidays.
What incentive is there for them to work?

wakka12

hurler32 wrote: »

The Government announce Capital Investment programmes for Time, Im sure im not alone when I say we need a new prison or 2. The hard facts are we have no prison space hence hundreds are on Bail at any given time free to commit more crime like that poor Elderly Mans ordeal in Terenure this week. Others like those cousins in Limerick where the man dies as his house was been burgled get micky mouse sentences.
Dublin has lost count of the weekly shootings where as many parts of Rural Ireland are just burglary after burglary with no consequence . Extra Jails /Prison Space might help the lawlessness out there?

:rolleyes:
sure you'd think it was brazilian favelas we were in!

hurler32

One of those charged with the Traveler shooting in Dublin this week has 15 children , one of whom was also charged with that incident, where are we going?..
Meanwhile law Abiding people are thinking carefully how can they afford to have 1 or maybe 2 children...

myshirt

It's about 50 grand a year per head, no thanks you.

myshirt

hurler32 wrote: »

One of those charged with the Traveler shooting in Dublin this week has 15 children , one of whom was also charged with that incident, where are we going?..
Meanwhile law Abiding people are thinking carefully how can they afford to have 1 or maybe 2 children...

Christ, 15 children. How does he manage to afford to support them? That's some going.

gifted

Send them to Australia....oh wait...that's been done....send them to Leitrim....

weldoninhio

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Roughly 60% of inmates re-offend upon release, so I'd say, it probably, overall, wouldn't do much. Out of sight, out of mind isn't working. Time to try something different

There's the problem. Longer sentences might help.

myshirt

gifted wrote: »

Send them to Australia....oh wait...that's been done....send them to Leitrim....

What happened to maintaining some humanity?

Bit harsh to be threatening someone you'll send them to Leitrim.

Rhys Essien

D3V!L wrote: »

Reopen Spike Island and privatize it. Then put out to tender 2 or 3 other prisons, also privatized.

You mightn’t have heard but Spike Island is now a World Class tourist attraction.It won a top award the other week.

DEFTLEFTHAND

There were plans to close Mountjoy years ago and build a mega prison outside of the city. Land was accquired, designs and pp were appoved but the project never reached the building phase. Millions were wasted on this debacle.

splinter65

splinter65 wrote: »

Your talking about, for the most part, unemployable people.

Actually, I'm talking about quite a few more than those.

They come from a background where nobody has finished secondary school, nobody has ever had a job and there is an unshakeable sense of entitlements and rights but no idea about obligations and personal responsibility.

Yup. Many will be like that. Then there will be plenty who have finished their leaving cert, perhaps got a diploma/degree, and failed in modern society for one reason or another. There are plenty of those who commit crimes who have completed the standard educational procedures but failed with living in a modern society. Our educational systems are not exactly set up to prepare people for either real life or in many cases, actually give employable skills that last over time.

And honestly, even if we were to use the generalization that you seek to use, we could seek to cut out the minority that does commit crime(s) and is looking for a chance to start again. Might be small numbers, but better than what we currently have.

There is also substance addictions, mental health issues brought about from the addiction issues and chaotic lifestyle.

Yup. Agreed. Which is why better research into such cases is needed, not to understand them (or sympathise), but rather towards genuine rehabilitation.

All the while you think you are rehabilitating them, they are planning the next robbery.
These are people who have no hesitation hitting an old woman in the face with a Hurley or tying up a small child.
They are not misunderstood creatures. They come from houses where there are 5 or 6 iPhone 7s a 52” Telly and an Audi parked out front.
They go to magaluf on holidays.
What incentive is there for them to work?

Well... let's be practical here. Harsher punishments aren't going to happen anytime soon. Removing or reducing their 'human' rights isn't going to happen. The death penalty is not going to be allowed. Arena style battles to the death are unfortunately not going to be allowed either.

Prisons are overcrowded, and new prisons will just be filled quickly within a few years since we haven't provided any efficient manner of rehabilitation or reintegration of those committed into society.

So, working with what we have available and what is likely to be allowed under the current moral/social/political landscape, how would you seek to reduce these repeat offenders?

hurler32

If your on the dole which isnt a bad core income , then you top this up with a bit of crime and an odd personal injuries claim , shoplift a share of your groceries...you are far better off then Honest Pat or Mary who work 40 hours a week paying their way ...

hurler32

hurler32 wrote: »

If your on the dole which isnt a bad core income , then you top this up with a bit of crime and an odd personal injuries claim , shoplift a share of your groceries...you are far better off then Honest Pat or Mary who work 40 hours a week paying their way ...

Might be better off selling imported cigs.

Wanderer78

hurler32 wrote: »

If your on the dole which isnt a bad core income , then you top this up with a bit of crime and an odd personal injuries claim , shoplift a share of your groceries...you are far better off then Honest Pat or Mary who work 40 hours a week paying their way ...

so is the problem with crime or with take home pay from working honestly?

Agent Coulson

Open a few more prisons get rid concurrent sentencing you break the law you serve the time for that crime not all you crimes at once.


Released earlier or out on bail wear an ankle tracker till the time you were originally sentenced to is fully up if you commit a crime while wearing it you get an automatic 5 years that you need to serve in full on top of whatever you get sentenced too for that crime.

whisky_galore

myshirt wrote: »

Christ, 15 children. How does he manage to afford to support them? That's some going.

And regular working shmoes wondering if they can support one or two kids...

rgodard80a

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Released earlier or out on bail wear an ankle tracker till the time you were originally sentenced to is fully up if you commit a crime while wearing it you get an automatic 5 years that you need to serve in full on top of whatever you get sentenced too for that crime.

+1 for tracking prisoners.

Also, a mandatory CAB audit for serious crimes.

Roger Hassenforder

myshirt wrote: »

Christ, 15 children. How does he manage to afford to support them? That's some going.

He doesnt.
I do
You do too possibly.

hurler32

Wanderer78 wrote: »

so is the problem with crime or with take home pay from working honestly?

The problem is those that live this life are allowed do so by our do gooder society, another problem is those that live this life are outbreeding the law abiding plus our judicial system is very very lenient so win win for the bad types amongst us...plus huge frustration for those bursting themselves to do things honestly..

Wanderer78

hurler32 wrote: »

The problem is those that live this life are allowed do so by our do gooder society, another problem is those that live this life are outbreeding the law abiding plus our judicial system is very very lenient so win win for the bad types amongst us...plus huge frustration for those bursting themselves to do things honestly..

a lot more complicated than that

Roger Hassenforder

Wanderer78 wrote: »

a lot more complicated than that

But not wrong

Wanderer78

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

But not wrong

debatable, but the causes of crime are actually very complex with no clear solutions

Potential-Monke

I've been saying it for years, and it's the one thing that annoyed me so much when I was a Garda. One of my early experiences in AGS was when we used to transport prisoners convicted in court to a custodial sentence. We would have bring the prisoner down to the jail, and return back to the station. Where I was based, this was usually at least 2 hours away. We brought one lad to Cork prisoner one afternoon after he was convicted to 3 weeks for a burglary (nothing taken, no damage, but previous convictions for the same). We got there at around 13.30. Dropped off the prisoner, got something quick to eat (as no lunch that day due to the escort), and were coming back into our station area, and there was pal walking back into the city from the train station. Stopped and asked him 'WTF!?', and he said they had no room, gave him €20 and a train ticket, and he was back the same time as us!

So yes, we should have at least 1 more prison. I wanted Spike Island re-opened for high profile criminals, but instead they made it into a tourist attraction. There is not enough room to keep repeat offenders in, and they end up back on the street and doing the same as usual, knowing that it will take a lot or something really serious to land actual prison time, so the lovely criminals of this country commit crime knowing this, and laugh at the Gardaí who are constantly arresting them over and over for the same things, even while out on bail.

So yes, more prisons should be a priority. I'd rather they be locked up and off the streets, rather than swanning around while on bail, still committing crime. It's a joke. And concurrent sentencing... There should be no such thing! Gowl the other day, out on bail for a serious offence, committed the same offence again, and got a concurrent sentence... I know rehabilitation is the key, but this country can't do that right yet, so until then, more prisons, longer sentences. Out of sight, out of mind is right in this case.

Baron Kurtz

Mint Sauce wrote: »

Reopen Spike Island, and a few of the old Gaols, problem solved.

Walls might be a bit thick for WiFi to work properly though!

splinter65

myshirt wrote: »

Christ, 15 children. How does he manage to afford to support them? That's some going.

He doesn’t support them at all. We do.