We need more Prisons

end of the road

turbbo wrote: »

- if you have 3 previous convictions you pay for your own legal representation - i.e use your dole money.
- no bail for criminals with 3 previous convictions.

not a hope of it happening as it makes way too much sense

the first one won't happen because it actually makes no sense as it would deprive people of their right to fair justice, and it would pass the costs to another part of the system in the form of greater crime or enforcement to try and get the legal costs paid. so we would be paying either way.

hatrickpatrick

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Roughly 60% of inmates re-offend upon release, so I'd say, it probably, overall, wouldn't do much.

You're assuming those of us advocating more jails would like to see violent scum being released at all. Count me out of that assumption for one, anyway.

hatrickpatrick

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

I tbink i recall reading a report that mentioned the recidivism rate among offenders subjected to capital punishment was almost 0%.

Have to be honest though, the tiny percentage who do reoffend scare me a lot more than those who just reoffend after being released from jail :pac:

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Roughly 60% of inmates re-offend upon release, so I'd say, it probably, overall, wouldn't do much.

You're assuming those of us advocating more jails would like to see violent scum being released at all. Count me out of that assumption for one, anyway.

So... every jail sentence is automatically life...?

hatrickpatrick

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

So... every jail sentence is automatically life...?

For murder, attempted murder, or aggravated violent burglary, 100% yes. Those people from the robbery case this week or that horrific Tipperary home invasion a few years ago are individuals I fully believe should be sentenced so harshly as to be figuratively buried alive as far as the rest of society is concerned.

I also advocate for abolishing the concept of victimless crime altogether, removing all of them from the statute books, and using financial penalties, house arrest, and other penalties to punish entirely non-violent crime. But people who terrorise others using extreme violence, even if it's a first offense, should 100% be locked away for the rest of their days, and I wouldn't bat an eyelid voting for such a policy.

Read the description of the burglary in Tipperary in which a couple's children were threatened and then forced to watch their dad getting the ever loving sh!t beaten out of him and tell me honestly, do you want to share a country with the people who did that? They are sub-human scumbags regardless of their life circumstances and I make no apologies for saying that I would prefer if they were never, ever again considered free citizens of this country.

splinter65

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

For murder, attempted murder, or aggravated violent burglary, 100% yes. Those people from the robbery case this week or that horrific Tipperary home invasion a few years ago are individuals I fully believe should be sentenced so harshly as to be figuratively buried alive as far as the rest of society is concerned.

I also advocate for abolishing the concept of victimless crime altogether, removing all of them from the statute books, and using financial penalties, house arrest, and other penalties to punish entirely non-violent crime. But people who terrorise others using extreme violence, even if it's a first offense, should 100% be locked away for the rest of their days, and I wouldn't bat an eyelid voting for such a policy.

Read the description of the burglary in Tipperary in which a couple's children were threatened and then forced to watch their dad getting the ever loving sh!t beaten out of him and tell me honestly, do you want to share a country with the people who did that? They are sub-human scumbags regardless of their life circumstances and I make no apologies for saying that I would prefer if they were never, ever again considered free citizens of this country.

And if a 1000 professionals sat down with them and worked every day of their sentence at their rehab they will never ever be rehabilitated.
They have no remorse what so ever.
They tried to appeal the severity of their sentences.
They are in prison today considering themselves heroes.
Their families think it’s the height of injustice that they are in prison at all.
I find the people who argue the loudest for sympathy and understanding for these type of animals have never nor will ever themselves be victims of any kind of viiolent crime like this.

Yellow pack crisps

Vic_08 wrote: »

By that you mean the dole is cheaper than prison, yes it is. However when they are on the streets they are also costing in Garda resources, court costs, lawyer fees, reports and numerous other state funded services these people consume far in excess of average citizens; substance abuse, hospital, social services, etc.

Then there is the cost to the victims of these people, how many theift/burglary victims do you know that have been able to reclaim their costs from perpetrators? These people skate on repaying society, the idea that they would actually have to also repay their victims is not even on their radar.

I do not believe that it is more expensive overall to have habitual offenders locked up, they cost a massive amount either way, there is no denying that but at least behind bars they are unable to victimise more innocent people.



That is great in theory. In practice the only way to break the cycle of poverty/benefits/criminality would be to deny large segments of society from being allowed to raise children.

Either mass sterilisation or removal without rights of all children from entire family groups identified as being unfit.

This would have the added hysteria of including a very high % of a certain ethnic group as well.

The biggest problem social services face in dealing with abusive/disfunctional families is the time, effort and proof needed before removing children can be justified. In short the scummers can make kids quicker than the state can take them away. Of course the fact that they rarely get enough prison time for their numerous offences to keep them out of the gene pool for long enough doesn't help either.

I’m not avocating criminals do not go to jail, they should. I’m advocating a cure from the root so the cycle is discontinued. Those associated costs are there anyway.

splinter65

Yellow pack crisps wrote: »

I’m not avocating criminals do not go to jail, they should. I’m advocating a cure from the root so the cycle is discontinued. Those associated costs are there anyway.

The only cure from the route would involve removing babies at birth from parents who are unable and or unwilling to raise decent human beings.

McCrack

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

For murder, attempted murder, or aggravated violent burglary, 100% yes. Those people from the robbery case this week or that horrific Tipperary home invasion a few years ago are individuals I fully believe should be sentenced so harshly as to be figuratively buried alive as far as the rest of society is concerned.

I also advocate for abolishing the concept of victimless crime altogether, removing all of them from the statute books, and using financial penalties, house arrest, and other penalties to punish entirely non-violent crime. But people who terrorise others using extreme violence, even if it's a first offense, should 100% be locked away for the rest of their days, and I wouldn't bat an eyelid voting for such a policy.

Read the description of the burglary in Tipperary in which a couple's children were threatened and then forced to watch their dad getting the ever loving sh!t beaten out of him and tell me honestly, do you want to share a country with the people who did that? They are sub-human scumbags regardless of their life circumstances and I make no apologies for saying that I would prefer if they were never, ever again considered free citizens of this country.

Logic is often lost on these types of threads.

There has to be grading of penalties, think about it.

Burglary/aggravated burglary are serious offences and there may be different aggravating factors depending on the circumstances of the crime

Homicides are more serious again and similarly there is manslaughter/murder difference

To say all of the above should be automatic life sentence doesn't make sense. Sure if the penalty for aggravated burglary is life the offender may as well murder the occupant while hes at it..he will face the same penalty!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

So... every jail sentence is automatically life...?

For murder, attempted murder, or aggravated violent burglary, 100% yes. Those people from the robbery case this week or that horrific Tipperary home invasion a few years ago are individuals I fully believe should be sentenced so harshly as to be figuratively buried alive as far as the rest of society is concerned.

I also advocate for abolishing the concept of victimless crime altogether, removing all of them from the statute books, and using financial penalties, house arrest, and other penalties to punish entirely non-violent crime. But people who terrorise others using extreme violence, even if it's a first offense, should 100% be locked away for the rest of their days, and I wouldn't bat an eyelid voting for such a policy.

Read the description of the burglary in Tipperary in which a couple's children were threatened and then forced to watch their dad getting the ever loving sh!t beaten out of him and tell me honestly, do you want to share a country with the people who did that? They are sub-human scumbags regardless of their life circumstances and I make no apologies for saying that I would prefer if they were never, ever again considered free citizens of this country.

Slightly different stance, then.

Also, I'm not entirely sure we can afford it. You willing to pay the extra taxes?

triple nipple

spindex wrote:

Put them up again a wall, one bullet, bang bang. All over

Wouldn't that just be one bang?

Icemancometh

triple nipple wrote: »

spindex wrote:

Put them up again a wall, one bullet, bang bang. All over

Wouldn't that just be one bang?

One for the gunshot, one for hitting the ground?

Mark25

https://www.irishprisons.ie/wp-content/uploads/documents_pdf/15-December-2017.pdf

People might be surprised at the Prison Service figures for the number of people in prison. Today there were 3698 in prison but there are 4273 bed spaces so nearly 600 free spaces. That doesn't seem to say there should be more prisons as there are already hundreds of empty spaces.

In Mountjoy there are 755 bed spaces but only 613 in prison according to the figures.

The only places where there are bed shortages are in Mounjoy Womens Prison where there are 125 prisoners and a capacity for 105.

Seems strange that there are only 133 prison spaces for females compared to 4140 for men.

Overall the figures don't seem to say that the prisons are full up and people being let out due to lack of space.

dxhound2005

If Ireland had as many prisoners per head of population as the USA, we would have about 37,000. The USA has adopted a three strikes and your out / throw away the key system. Which means that many of their 2 million plus inmates are 90 years old or more but have to be kept in because that is the sentence they got.

It hasn't solved the gun crime in America. I wonder if we had thousands of 90 year olds in our prisons would our crime rate go down.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

dxhound2005 wrote: »

If Ireland had as many prisoners per head of population as the USA, we would have about 37,000. The USA has adopted a three strikes and your out / throw away the key system. Which means that many of their 2 million plus inmates are 90 years old or more but have to be kept in because that is the sentence they got.

It hasn't solved the gun crime in America. I wonder if we had thousands of 90 year olds in our prisons would our crime rate go down.

90 year olds are not going to be committing murderous armed-robberies.

It's already been proven in this thread that more prisons or tougher prisons does not automatically mean (or is even likely to mean) less crime. The US statistics and their three-strikes rule bear this out.

weldoninhio

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

90 year olds are not going to be committing murderous armed-robberies.

It's already been proven in this thread that more prisons or tougher prisons does not automatically mean (or is even likely to mean) less crime. The US statistics and their three-strikes rule bear this out.

There are a finite amount of scum in Ireland. We are nowhere near the scale of USA. Comparing us with them is a pathetic attempt to sidetrack the conversation.

If Anto and his scanner mates are locked up for a long time, it also means Jacinta is popping out less feral kids, which means even less criminals in the future and a lower SW bill. Get them off the streets and give them minimal human rights, literally just as much as the state can get away with without being sued.

Ewan Hoosarmi

In the rural areas, it's well known that there need to be two bangs. One for the scumbag, then one for the ceiling to show that you gave a warning shot.

Anyone who takes away the human rights of another, by committing a crime against them, should automatically lose their human rights, and be treated accordingly. Prisoners' rights? That should be a contradiction in terms.

The criminal classes see our society as a soft touch. How do you propose to change that view? By being an even softer touch?

Vic_08

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

90 year olds are not going to be committing murderous armed-robberies.

It's already been proven in this thread that more prisons or tougher prisons does not automatically mean (or is even likely to mean) less crime. The US statistics and their three-strikes rule bear this out.

That's crap. All that the US statistics prove is that the US is cracked. They have huge problems with their society that they won't address so instead have turned being poor into a massive prison trap. They have no social welfare and a deeply corrupt greed driven society where poverty = failure = your own damn fault. Inequality and targeting of the poor by law enforcement is out of control there, it is no model for any civilised country to follow.

Ireland is nothing like the USA, we provide a comprehensive welfare safety net, unlike in America if you can't or won't pay your own way here you get a lot of assistance from the state.

Mass incarceration doesn't work in America because they have systematically removed policies designed to deal with the causes of poverty as well as programs designed to help people deal with their situations in favour of criminalising entire communities with military-style policing and on top of that give them all easy access to guns. A crazy country circling the drain due to their own arrogance and stupidity.

If there is one thing that can be learned from them it is the utter failure of the war on drugs. The drugs trade and users' desperation for large amounts of cash to feed their habit is a big cause of crime here. Sending users through the revolving door criminal system we currently have is just a waste of money and effort. Add that to the destruction caused by the criminal scum gangs that our system cannot control. Until we have a complete change of policy regarding drugs we are never going to get on top of this disease on our communities. We need to grow the fukk up and admit that prohibition and criminalisation of drug use does not work.

I am all in favour of progressive policies to help people out of bad situations but the idea that carrot alone is good enough is just bleeding-heart fantasy. There also needs to be a proper system to hold people to account for unacceptable behaviour against others.

It angers me how much care and compassion certain groups have for the rights and welfare of criminals while completely ignoring the rights of victims to not be victimised in the first place or to receive proportionate justice when they have been wronged.

Rehabilitation is all good but it needs to come after people have paid for their criminal behaviour not instead of it as we currently do, suspended sentences and community orders are a kick in the face to victims and it just doesn't work for career criminals.

Carrot without stick is just rewarding bad behaviour, like it or not there is a small but very active part of our society that just don't care what effect they have on others, instead of hand wringing over how much more we should be doing for them we should be protecting the rest of society by removing them from society.

dxhound2005

I predict that if we had 40,000 in prison and they were a rolling population in there until death, we would still have a lot of crime.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

weldoninhio wrote: »

There are a finite amount of scum in Ireland. We are nowhere near the scale of USA. Comparing us with them is a pathetic attempt to sidetrack the conversation.

Be curious to know you're reckoning on the first part (regarding more scum in the US) - not disagreeing with you, just would be interested in seeing if it's true or not. Also be interesting to know if the scum was creating the system or vice versa.

Comparing Ireland ot the US is, rightly or wrongly, what wa lot of posters have been doing on both sides of the argument.

If Anto and his scanner mates are locked up for a long time, it also means Jacinta is popping out less feral kids, which means even less criminals in the future and a lower SW bill. Get them off the streets and give them minimal human rights, literally just as much as the state can get away with without being sued.

This is flawed logic - Jacinta's just going to find a different Anto can carry on.

goose2005

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

It's reduced by 100% while they are inside.

except for all the stabbing, assault, extortion, rape, drug dealing and murder they commit while in prison? But sure their victims are just other "scum" anyway

goose2005

myshirt wrote: »

Christ, 15 children. How does he manage to afford to support them? That's some going.

You mean, How do we manage to afford to support them?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Vic_08 wrote: »

That's crap. All that the US statistics prove is that the US is cracked. They have huge problems with their society that they won't address so instead have turned being poor into a massive prison trap. They have no social welfare and a deeply corrupt greed driven society where poverty = failure = your own damn fault. Inequality and targeting of the poor by law enforcement is out of control there, it is no model for any civilised country to follow.

Ireland is nothing like the USA, we provide a comprehensive welfare safety net, unlike in America if you can't or won't pay your own way here you get a lot of assistance from the state.

Mass incarceration doesn't work in America because they have systematically removed policies designed to deal with the causes of poverty as well as programs designed to help people deal with their situations in favour of criminalising entire communities with military-style policing and on top of that give them all easy access to guns. A crazy country circling the drain due to their own arrogance and stupidity.

If there is one thing that can be learned from them it is the utter failure of the war on drugs. The drugs trade and users' desperation for large amounts of cash to feed their habit is a big cause of crime here. Sending users through the revolving door criminal system we currently have is just a waste of money and effort. Add that to the destruction caused by the criminal scum gangs that our system cannot control. Until we have a complete change of policy regarding drugs we are never going to get on top of this disease on our communities. We need to grow the fukk up and admit that prohibition and criminalisation of drug use does not work.

I am all in favour of progressive policies to help people out of bad situations but the idea that carrot alone is good enough is just bleeding-heart fantasy. There also needs to be a proper system to hold people to account for unacceptable behaviour against others.

It angers me how much care and compassion certain groups have for the rights and welfare of criminals while completely ignoring the rights of victims to not be victimised in the first place or to receive proportionate justice when they have been wronged.

Rehabilitation is all good but it needs to come after people have paid for their criminal behaviour not instead of it as we currently do, suspended sentences and community orders are a kick in the face to victims and it just doesn't work for career criminals.

Carrot without stick is just rewarding bad behaviour, like it or not there is a small but very active part of our society that just don't care what effect they have on others, instead of hand wringing over how much more we should be doing for them we should be protecting the rest of society by removing them from society.

While I'm not disagreeing with you, none of this actually challenges my point. Now, I'm open to a much tougher sentence based on repeat crimes - I've said so - but it would want to be for very serious crime (and I'd argue you should be too old to commit a third strike by the time you finish the second).

I don't think we're all that great at tacking the causes of poverty here to be honest.

Totally agree with you on the drugs stance. But again - that's nothing to do with putting more people in prison.

splinter65

goose2005 wrote: »

except for all the stabbing, assault, extortion, rape, drug dealing and murder they commit while in prison? But sure their victims are just other "scum" anyway

Don’t want to end up murdered in prison? Don’t break the law! It’s so simple even small children can understand.

weldoninhio

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Be curious to know you're reckoning on the first part (regarding more scum in the US) - not disagreeing with you, just would be interested in seeing if it's true or not. Also be interesting to know if the scum was creating the system or vice versa.

Comparing Ireland ot the US is, rightly or wrongly, what wa lot of posters have been doing on both sides of the argument.



This is flawed logic - Jacinta's just going to find a different Anto can carry on.

Ireland is a lot smaller than the US. We don’t have gangs like MS-13, white supremicist gangs, Bikie gangs and Mexican cartels. We are moving in that direction, but it could be nipped in the bud. High security prisons for high profile prisoners and repeat offenders. All visits from behind Perspex screens, no contact with visitors, no drugs in prison. No tv, no radio. Plenty of books for them to read. 1 hour exercise a day. A spartan life.

Softly softly doesn’t work with scum. It never has and never will.

dxhound2005

weldoninhio wrote: »

Ireland is a lot smaller than the US. We don’t have gangs like MS-13, white supremicist gangs, Bikie gangs and Mexican cartels. We are moving in that direction, but it could be nipped in the bud. High security prisons for high profile prisoners and repeat offenders. All visits from behind Perspex screens, no contact with visitors, no drugs in prison. No tv, no radio. Plenty of books for them to read. 1 hour exercise a day. A spartan life.

Softly softly doesn’t work with scum. It never has and never will.

What sort of regime would you have for them when they are 95 and suffering from dementia?

weldoninhio

dxhound2005 wrote: »

What sort of regime would you have for them when they are 95 and suffering from dementia?

One way plane ticket to Switzerland.

pjohnson

dxhound2005 wrote: »

What sort of regime would you have for them when they are 95 and suffering from dementia?

Execution

dxhound2005

pjohnson wrote: »

Execution

I like it. But to save money do it when they are 20.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

weldoninhio wrote: »

Ireland is a lot smaller than the US. We don’t have gangs like MS-13, white supremicist gangs, Bikie gangs and Mexican cartels. We are moving in that direction, but it could be nipped in the bud. High security prisons for high profile prisoners and repeat offenders. All visits from behind Perspex screens, no contact with visitors, no drugs in prison. No tv, no radio. Plenty of books for them to read. 1 hour exercise a day. A spartan life.

Softly softly doesn’t work with scum. It never has and never will.

Not every part of a America has those problems. Dublin does have gang problems though.

Nipping it in the bud is one thing but I don't see how ore of the same would work.

Would agree with the last few sentences.