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After BXD: The next big public transport project for Dublin?3

  • 11-12-2017 10:02pm
    #1
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 13,227 Mod ✭✭✭✭ marno21


    Varadkar, who started, Luas Cross City, has stated his ambitions to drastically improve public transport in Dublin in his 10 year Capital Plan.

    He has namedropped:

    Metro North
    DART Expansion
    Luas Poolbeg
    Luas F (Lucan)
    Luas Finglas

    Which one will start next?

    What is the next big public transport project to start in Dublin? 230 votes

    Metro North
    0% 1 vote
    Luas Line F (Lucan)
    57% 132 votes
    Luas Finglas extension
    7% 17 votes
    Luas Poolbeg extension
    3% 7 votes
    DART Expansion: Interconnector tunnel
    2% 5 votes
    DART Expansion: Maynooth
    14% 33 votes
    DART Expansion: Balbriggan
    13% 30 votes
    None. Shane Ross bus fetish to continue
    2% 5 votes


«13456710

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭ LeinsterDub


    marno21 wrote: »
    Varadkar, who started, Luas Cross City, has stated his ambitions to drastically improve public transport in Dublin in his 10 year Capital Plan.

    He has namedropped:

    Metro North
    DART Expansion
    Luas Poolbeg
    Luas F (Lucan)
    Luas Finglas

    Which one will start next?

    MN Lite will be next (hopefully) along with Bus Connects improvements


  • Registered Users Posts: 581 ✭✭✭ ricimaki


    If the question is which should start next, the answer is Metro North, followed by Dart expansion to Maynooth, then The inter-connector tunnel.

    If the question is which will start next, it will either be Metro North, or Luas extensions to Poolbeg or Finglas. Hopefully no BRT, but this is Ross....

    If the government changes before Metro north construction starts (highly likely), it will be re-designed yet again, some Luas extensions will get planned but not started, and probably lots of BRT lines will be built instead. I can see DART expansion getting kicked down the road.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 13,227 Mod ✭✭✭✭ marno21


    Personally, I think its a tossup between Metro North and DART expansion to Balbriggan. Both are programmed to start around 2021, and many of the other schemes, especially DART Underground/Interconnector are too far from being shovel ready to begin before then.

    Given the state of transport, it'll be important for one of these to start soon because Dublin really really needs it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭ LeinsterDub


    marno21 wrote: »
    Personally, I think its a tossup between Metro North and DART expansion to Balbriggan. Both are programmed to start around 2021, and many of the other schemes, especially DART Underground/Interconnector are too far from being shovel ready to begin before then.

    Given the state of transport, it'll be important for one of these to start soon because Dublin really really needs it.

    Is there much involved with the DART expansions bar the overhead cables?


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 13,227 Mod ✭✭✭✭ marno21


    Is there much involved with the DART expansions bar the overhead cables?
    Level crossing removal and resignalling definitely anyway.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,516 ✭✭✭✭ Idbatterim


    What Is the cheapest project? That will never the one that goes ahead next ...


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭ LeinsterDub


    sugarman wrote: »
    It should be Metro North AND Ballbriggan.

    Ballbriggan is arguably needed more than Metro North to ease central housing demands. So much potential and space for development but too inaccessible with irregular wanderly wagon bus routes and undependable train services.
    Ballybriggan will have a shocking frequency. I'm not sure it would help with housing demands


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,734 ✭✭✭✭ BonnieSituation


    DU in conjunction with Maynooth expansion. Please and thanks.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,173 ✭✭✭ roadmaster


    In the same sentence I think I heard Leo mention Metro North and the Luas to finglas. Did I hear right?


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,998 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    DART to Balbriggan achieves nothing that can't be done with diesels.

    The Maynooth line is of such an awful alignment and stop spacing that it needed electrics from the day it was reopened. There is no sane reason for Balbriggan electrification to be above it. Which means it'll probably be done before it!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,347 ✭✭✭✭ MJohnston


    marno21 wrote: »
    Level crossing removal and resignalling definitely anyway.

    There are no level crossings on the Balbriggan line, which is probably why it's such an attractive proposition for the government, while offering little to the public at large.

    There are 6 level crossings to remove on the Maynooth line. Ashtown is going to be the worst, I don't know whether land was ever reserved for a bridge here, but it's a real tight squeeze in the space of the current crossing, probably impossible to fit a bridge in there in fact. I wonder if this alignment would be possible:

    wJhVqjx.png

    Alternatively, maybe something could be constructed to meet the Navan Road Parkway junction? It would provide a better capacity than the Ashtown Road roundabout.

    The other major ones are Coolmine Road and Clonsilla Road. Coolmine I think there's probably enough space for a bridge here, maybe they can also lower the track a little as it seems to be quite high above the canal here? Clonsilla Road, I suspect there have been solid plans for this one before as it's a heavily used car route (I know there were draft plans for all of these crossings in the past), but there's plenty of room around too.

    Then there are a bunch of very minor road crossings that shouldn't be too much trouble. The old Porterstown Road one should be really simple to close, it's already "bypassed". Barberstown, there might be a couple of locals who grumble, but there is an alternative access route available that isn't too much of a diversion. Then there's another across from Intel, again a very short diversion is already available. I don't know why these 3 are still open at all to be honest.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,698 ✭✭✭ plodder


    Metro North and DART underground. Those are serious projects. Electrifying existing lines isn't really comparable, but if could be done cheaply then why not, but what we really need is infrastructure in areas that have none currently, and particularly in the case of DU, where it creates new links between existing lines. It's hard to see where new on-surface LUAS's will go in the city. Motorists probably want to get behind MN and DU I guess, as the only serious alternatives for getting commuters off the roads.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,173 ✭✭✭ roadmaster


    MJohnston wrote: »
    There are no level crossings on the Balbriggan line, which is probably why it's such an attractive proposition for the government, while offering little to the public at large.

    There are 6 level crossings to remove on the Maynooth line. Ashtown is going to be the worst, I don't know whether land was ever reserved for a bridge here, but it's a real tight squeeze in the space of the current crossing, probably impossible to fit a bridge in there in fact. I wonder if this alignment would be possible:

    wJhVqjx.png

    Alternatively, maybe something could be constructed to meet the Navan Road Parkway junction? It would provide a better capacity than the Ashtown Road roundabout.

    The other major ones are Coolmine Road and Clonsilla Road. Coolmine I think there's probably enough space for a bridge here, maybe they can also lower the track a little as it seems to be quite high above the canal here? Clonsilla Road, I suspect there have been solid plans for this one before as it's a heavily used car route (I know there were draft plans for all of these crossings in the past), but there's plenty of room around too.

    Then there are a bunch of very minor road crossings that shouldn't be too much trouble. The old Porterstown Road one should be really simple to close, it's already "bypassed". Barberstown, there might be a couple of locals who grumble, but there is an alternative access route available that isn't too much of a diversion. Then there's another across from Intel, again a very short diversion is already available. I don't know why these 3 are still open at all to be honest.

    Clonsilla would be good for cars as well I was stuck there for 30 mins tonight


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,672 ✭✭✭✭ Zebra3


    Metro North and electrification of Maynooth line.

    Compared to the northern line, the Maynooth line has very little outer suburban and inter city services competing with the inner suburban services. Huge amount of land south of Clonsilla and between Clonsilla and Leixlip available for development as well as along the branch off to Pace.

    The Maynooth line offers connections with Luas at Broombridge and Connolly, with MN at Drumcondra as well as connecting with Dart services.

    With level crossing closures bringing down travel times, I’d like to see a station around Ballybough to help offer better PT options for an area that badly needs a boost.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,347 ✭✭✭✭ MJohnston


    Regarding Dart Underground...I think it's time to start thinking pragmatically about this. It doesn't seem like it's ever going to happen, and yet it's clearly a vital piece of infrastructure. It's not even being mentioned at all. Which means there's something politically preventing it from being an achievable goal. I don't know whether it's just FG, or any government, but I suspect a lot of it has to do with CIE.

    So, that pragmatic thinking - what is there that can be done to expand the DART network without DART underground? Aside from linking Heuston line trains to Pearse, one of the big selling points of DU was relieving the pressure on capacity around Connolly. I think it's potentially time to start thinking about Docklands as an important station to the future of the DART network.

    I think the Maynooth line in particular, if upgraded to DART, could increase frequency substantially without DU by avoiding Connolly completely. The Broombridge Luas helps enable this too - passengers that want to connect to the DART lines could switch from Docklands bound trains at BB to Luas, or use the existing Red line connection to Connolly. Seems like you could also connect the northern DART line to Docklands too, with not too much engineering work.

    From the Hazelhatch line, maybe it's time to think more seriously about what the Phoenix Park Tunnel is capable of being upgraded to? If we had hybrid DARTs, capable of running without overhead lines for a short distance, does PPT become a possibility for use in Hazelhatch electrification?

    In the meantime, in parallel, we have to move forward with non-CIE owned projects that reduce the other reasons for DU being a necessity.


  • Registered Users Posts: 37,534 ✭✭✭✭ the_syco


    roadmaster wrote: »
    Clonsilla would be good for cars as well I was stuck there for 30 mins tonight
    Close it, and widen and straighten the Porterstown Road to a proper road, and use the existing crossing where Porterstown Road meets Consilla Road.
    MJohnston wrote: »
    Then there's another across from Intel, again a very short diversion is already available. I don't know why these 3 are still open at all to be honest.
    The crossing at Lock 13 could be closed off; since the bridge to the east was built, it's not really needed. Some people may be annoyed, but overall I'd say the people along the road leading to it will be pleased as it won't be treated as a shortcut.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,464 ✭✭✭ budhabob


    What it should be: Dart Underground. Its the only project that has far reaching benefits on all transport links into and out of the city - not just heavy rail.

    What it will be: some lower cost abomination that doesn't address the key issues i.e. increasing capacity on alternatives to the car.


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,367 ✭✭✭✭ blanch152


    MJohnston wrote: »
    There are no level crossings on the Balbriggan line, which is probably why it's such an attractive proposition for the government, while offering little to the public at large.

    There are 6 level crossings to remove on the Maynooth line. Ashtown is going to be the worst, I don't know whether land was ever reserved for a bridge here, but it's a real tight squeeze in the space of the current crossing, probably impossible to fit a bridge in there in fact. I wonder if this alignment would be possible:



    Alternatively, maybe something could be constructed to meet the Navan Road Parkway junction? It would provide a better capacity than the Ashtown Road roundabout.

    The other major ones are Coolmine Road and Clonsilla Road. Coolmine I think there's probably enough space for a bridge here, maybe they can also lower the track a little as it seems to be quite high above the canal here? Clonsilla Road, I suspect there have been solid plans for this one before as it's a heavily used car route (I know there were draft plans for all of these crossings in the past), but there's plenty of room around too.

    Then there are a bunch of very minor road crossings that shouldn't be too much trouble. The old Porterstown Road one should be really simple to close, it's already "bypassed". Barberstown, there might be a couple of locals who grumble, but there is an alternative access route available that isn't too much of a diversion. Then there's another across from Intel, again a very short diversion is already available. I don't know why these 3 are still open at all to be honest.


    Navan Road Parkway is probably the best option with development of the surrounding land for housing. Very difficult to see how Ashtown would work otherwise.

    As for Coolmine, have a look at the thread on the Dublin 15 forum to see some of the short-sighted objections to it going ahead.


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,367 ✭✭✭✭ blanch152


    MJohnston wrote: »
    Regarding Dart Underground...I think it's time to start thinking pragmatically about this. It doesn't seem like it's ever going to happen, and yet it's clearly a vital piece of infrastructure. It's not even being mentioned at all. Which means there's something politically preventing it from being an achievable goal. I don't know whether it's just FG, or any government, but I suspect a lot of it has to do with CIE.

    So, that pragmatic thinking - what is there that can be done to expand the DART network without DART underground? Aside from linking Heuston line trains to Pearse, one of the big selling points of DU was relieving the pressure on capacity around Connolly. I think it's potentially time to start thinking about Docklands as an important station to the future of the DART network.

    I think the Maynooth line in particular, if upgraded to DART, could increase frequency substantially without DU by avoiding Connolly completely. The Broombridge Luas helps enable this too - passengers that want to connect to the DART lines could switch from Docklands bound trains at BB to Luas, or use the existing Red line connection to Connolly. Seems like you could also connect the northern DART line to Docklands too, with not too much engineering work.

    From the Hazelhatch line, maybe it's time to think more seriously about what the Phoenix Park Tunnel is capable of being upgraded to? If we had hybrid DARTs, capable of running without overhead lines for a short distance, does PPT become a possibility for use in Hazelhatch electrification?

    In the meantime, in parallel, we have to move forward with non-CIE owned projects that reduce the other reasons for DU being a necessity.


    Is an interchange with Connolly possible where the Maynooth line to Docklands passes under the Northern Dart?


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 8,175 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Sierra Oscar


    MJohnston wrote: »
    Regarding Dart Underground...I think it's time to start thinking pragmatically about this. It doesn't seem like it's ever going to happen, and yet it's clearly a vital piece of infrastructure. It's not even being mentioned at all. Which means there's something politically preventing it from being an achievable goal. I don't know whether it's just FG, or any government, but I suspect a lot of it has to do with CIE.

    Oh the difficulties with CIE are definitely part of the issue holding up DART Underground. The Taoiseach alluded to this in the comments he made at the launch of Luas Cross City on Saturday (here).
    “As you know I'm a big fan of light rail. I always have been. It's reliable, easy to use, very attractive and once built requires no subvention whatsoever. It covers its own running costs. There are tentative plans for further LUAS lines to places like Poolbeg, which is going to be a new high density residential area for Dublin, an extension from Broombridge over the canal to Finglas and also the big project which will be the F line out to Lucan.”

    Unfortunately I don't think we will see any expansions of the DART network until the issues in Irish Rail / CIE are sorted. I don't think its a FG specific problem either. I can't see any party signing off on a big project with Irish Rail any time soon.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,651 ✭✭✭ trellheim


    MN Next . DU as well but it wont make the financial numbers so it'll keep getting canned.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,321 ✭✭✭ AngryLips


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Is an interchange with Connolly possible where the Maynooth line to Docklands passes under the Northern Dart?

    That would make Connolly even more of a sprawling mess than it is already, assuming it's possible.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,169 ✭✭✭ cgcsb


    What will happen next is a reorganization of Dublin Bus with some improvements to bus lanes and a clamp down on left turning motorists, then Metro North. Cars will be banned from Bachelors walk and the NTA will build a liffey cycle route after removing that project from DCC. Rate payers should seek legal advice on suing the council for spending 7 years wasting their money on that project.

    Better bus priority is needed. I drove into Dublin a couple of evenings ago and it seemed that the bus lane on left hand side of St Johns Road by Heuston station is not actually a bus lane, or rather the rules governing bus lanes just don't seem to apply to some cars. Why is that?

    Also what I would like to see brought in next is integrated ticketing. Leap is out 6 years now and we were promised that the leap was the precursor to integrated ticketing, however that is yet to materialize. Do we need to scrap leap and start again? what is the reason for it's failure? and why aren't we being told more about it?

    After all that basic and essentially free stuff is done I'd like to see metro north and Maynooth electrification go ahead. Electrifying Balbriggan doesn't do anything but increase journey times for everyone.

    I'd like to see more city centre luas lines as opposed to suburban extensions. A second east west line on the south side and a second north-south line to the west of Capel st is required before we go branching off into the burbs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,516 ✭✭✭✭ Idbatterim


    I'd like to see more city centre luas lines as opposed to suburban extensions. A second east west line on the south side and a second north-south line to the west of Capel st is required before we go branching off into the burbs.

    I am dead against more city centre luas lines on surface, which they would be! Cant wait to see what businesses will have to say if they think one will run outside their door, given the experience of LCC.

    Build DU, as much of a disgrace as CIE and the unions are, its too damaging for everyone to not build it, because CIE and the unions have to be tackled!

    Id like to see the luas linked to bray as is planned and then also extended from broombridge to outside the m50...


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,734 ✭✭✭✭ BonnieSituation


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    I am dead against more city centre luas lines on surface, which they would be! Cant wait to see what businesses will have to say if they think one will run outside their door, given the experience of LCC.

    Build DU, as much of a disgrace as CIE and the unions are, its too damaging for everyone to not build it, because CIE and the unions have to be tackled!

    Id like to see the luas linked to bray as is planned and then also extended from broombridge to outside the m50...

    I'm dead set against Luas going further than the M50. It's so slow. I'm dreading they'll plonk it out to Lucan.

    Heavy rail please and lots of it.

    I'd also settle for Kishoge opening at some point this side of my 40s.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,516 ✭✭✭✭ Idbatterim


    I'm dead set against Luas going further than the M50. It's so slow. I'm dreading they'll plonk it out to Lucan.

    Heavy rail please and lots of it.

    I'd also settle for Kishoge opening at some point this side of my 40s.

    its slow until it hits the on street running, but I see no point in not extending it a few km and then also having a park and ride off the m50 for it. Also extending it southwards, you open up lots of land around it for high density sustainable living, also once its connected to the dart line in bray, it opens up way more destinations for people...


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,464 ✭✭✭ munchkin_utd


    re. the Ashtown crossing suggestion, youre spot on.
    Heres the Irish rail proposal

    img_0637.png?w=660

    from : https://navanroad.com/2015/11/20/ashtown-level-crossing/


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,734 ✭✭✭✭ BonnieSituation


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    its slow until it hits the on street running, but I see no point in not extending it a few km and then also having a park and ride off the m50 for it. Also extending it southwards, you open up lots of land around it for high density sustainable living, also once its connected to the dart line in bray, it opens up way more destinations for people...

    Oh aye. I just really hate trams.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,516 ✭✭✭✭ Idbatterim


    Oh aye. I just really hate trams.

    having taken the trip from dundrum to broombridge yesterday, the amount of times they stopped at junctions when nothing else was approaching the junction and there is perfect line of sight was laughable!

    traffic should have to legally yield right of way to luas at minor junctions in my opinion, where there is very good visibility for all parties...


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭ LeinsterDub


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    having taken the trip from dundrum to broombridge yesterday, the amount of times they stopped at junctions when nothing else was approaching the junction and there is perfect line of sight was laughable!

    traffic should have to legally yield right of way to luas at minor junctions in my opinion, where there is very good visibility for all parties...

    Traffic can't even figure out red lights and yellow boxes...


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