After BXD: The next big public transport project for Dublin?3

Dr Crayfish

Sam Russell wrote: »

What is there to making traffic lights wait for oncoming buses and trams?

Why not have buses fitted with dash cams to take pictures of cars in bus lanes? These would of course have to be accepted as robust evidence in FPN or subsequent court case.

Why not have some bus lanes designated as bus only (no taxis)?

Lots of small steps to make buses go faster. If a bus goes 10% faster, it is equivalent to having 10% more buses and more revenue.

Well basically what I'm saying is have routes like the Luas but just put buses on it. Why the need to have tracks laid etc? I know it's more comfortable but I wouldn't be complaining if we had fast reliable bus services that were prioritised in traffic.

Dr Crayfish

If you could just jump onto them and not have to dick around with money with the driver it would save a lot of time. So ticket dispensers at the stops and card scanning facilities on the buses themselves, with inspectors on the routes from time to time. It seems like a simple traffic solution to me.

bk

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

Well basically what I'm saying is have routes like the Luas but just put buses on it. Why the need to have tracks laid etc? I know it's more comfortable but I wouldn't be complaining if we had fast reliable bus services that were prioritised in traffic.

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

If you could just jump onto them and not have to dick around with money with the driver it would save a lot of time. So ticket dispensers at the stops and card scanning facilities on the buses themselves, with inspectors on the routes from time to time. It seems like a simple traffic solution to me.

Basically BRT, what is planned for Swiftway. They seem to be planning three of these routes.

Dr Crayfish

bk wrote: »

Basically BRT, what is planned for Swiftway. They seem to be planning three of these routes.

Is that what BRT is? I will look it up. I would have no problem having these routes over expensive Luaii.

bk

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

Is that what BRT is? I will look it up. I would have no problem having these routes over expensive Luaii.

BRT is cheaper then Luas/Tram, but it also can't carry as many passenger per route per hour. So if you build Luas or BRT should come down purely to the demand along the route, not really just cost.

Dr Crayfish

So i was just reading about swiftway etc I live on one of the proposed routes. Is it just pie in the sky now or have they started widening roads or building stops or whatever they need to do?

bk

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

So i was just reading about swiftway etc I live on one of the proposed routes. Is it just pie in the sky now or have they started widening roads or building stops or whatever they need to do?

It hasn't started. Seems to have gotten delayed due to the larger BusConnects project. Hopefully it or some form of it gets the go ahead.

Stephen15

bk wrote: »

It hasn't started. Seems to have gotten delayed due to the larger BusConnects project. Hopefully it or some form of it gets the go ahead.

Weren't there lots of objections as people thought it was a cheap alternative to MN.

4068ac1elhodqr

Hyperloop. (not on the list of options and probably highly unlikely, currently)

Plenty of folks already live in an insular vacum bubble, so won't take much getting used to
Cork-Dublin-Belfast in about the same time it takes to watch a single episode of fair city.

Uranium

Be great if the were all built but MN and interconnector are coming in at €4BN each

AngryLips

Teagan Lemon Dandruff wrote: »

Hyperloop. (not on the list of options and probably highly unlikely, currently)

Cork-Dublin-Belfast in about the same time it takes to watch a single episode of fair city.

But will it be built to Irish standard gauge? We should at least be able to send a few of the Mk3s down the new route

Peregrine

Uranium wrote: »

Be great if the were all built but MN and interconnector are coming in at €4BN each

MN won't cost anywhere near €4bn unless the new redesign includes several kms of tunnelling on the Southside also which is unlikely. The cost of the original MN was around €2.6bn.

markpb

Uranium wrote: »

Be great if the were all built but MN and interconnector are coming in at €4BN each

4bn is not actually a huge sum of money for the Irish government. It ignores the fact that the company building it would be hiring staff who will pay income tax in Ireland, they'll be renting construction equipment from Irish companies who will pay corporation tax and income tax. More importantly, it could be paid over 3-5 years (of construction) or over 30 years (of operation). For comparison, the state took in 51bn in tax, 3bn from the partial sale of AIB and 8bn in prsi last year alone.

Zebra3

Would be good to get the smaller net cost to the state out there.

4068ac1elhodqr

AngryLips wrote: »

But will it be built to Irish standard gauge? We should at least be able to send a few of the Mk3s down the new route

No idea, essentially it's a small vacum tube with a small footprint that moves people about in pods cleaner and quicker than a 747 racing up at 30,000ft at full throttle.

The aul hyperloop is probably another decade away from being a realistic option (outside of Cali or UAE).

But then again between quangos, unions, heavy construction etc., any serious construction project now might also be a decade or so from realisation.

MJohnston

Teagan Lemon Dandruff wrote: »

No idea, essentially it's a small vacum tube with a small footprint that moves people about in pods cleaner and quicker than a 747 racing up at 30,000ft at full throttle.

The aul hyperloop is probably another decade away from being a realistic option (outside of Cali or UAE).

But then again between quangos, unions, heavy construction etc., any serious construction project now might also be a decade or so from realisation.

Hyperloop is obviously complete sci-fi stuff at the minute and nowhere near becoming a reality, nevermind in Ireland. But more importantly, it would never work out on a cost basis as a public transport option in Dublin (the topic of the thread!).

4068ac1elhodqr

MJohnston wrote: »

Hyperloop is obviously complete sci-fi stuff at the minute and nowhere near becoming a reality, nevermind in Ireland. But more importantly, it would never work out on a cost basis as a public transport option in Dublin (the topic of the thread!).

Becoming a reality in many places over the next few years, HTT just signed an agreement for travel between Vijaywada to Amaravati (over in {not yet} 1st world, India).

Meanwhile Richard Branson is throwing some serious dollas behind the concept.

The 1st fully fledged system from Musk, is expected 2021.

MJohnston

Teagan Lemon Dandruff wrote: »

Becoming a reality in many places over the next few years, HTT just signed an agreement for travel between Vijaywada to Amaravati (over in {not yet} 1st world, India).

Meanwhile Richard Branson is throwing some serious dollas behind the concept.

The 1st fully fledged system from Musk, is expected 2021.

Yeah, so at least 20 years off from being a reality in Ireland. But still - nothing to do with Dublin public transport.

4068ac1elhodqr

MJohnston wrote: »

Yeah, so at least 20 years off from being a reality in Ireland. But still - nothing to do with Dublin public transport.

In terms of getting in and out of Dublin (to other major population centers) a 12 foot wide hollow tube on stilts doesn't sound too messy, and would relive pressure on all other city routes for the more local commuters). 2021 is just 3yrs away.

It's a bit like someone buying a 2.0 VW Diesel a couple of years ago for occasional trip, then having a spin around town in one of these new but basic electric cars, worlds apart.

MJohnston

Teagan Lemon Dandruff wrote: »

In terms of getting in and out of Dublin (to other major population centers) a 12 foot wide hollow tube on stilts doesn't sound too messy, and would relive pressure on all other city routes for the more local commuters). 2021 is just 3yrs away.

It's a bit like someone buying a 2.0 VW Diesel a couple of years ago for occasional trip, then having a spin around town in one of these new but basic electric cars, worlds apart.

It's not what the thread is about though.

Stephen15

Teagan Lemon Dandruff wrote: »

In terms of getting in and out of Dublin (to other major population centers) a 12 foot wide hollow tube on stilts doesn't sound too messy, and would relive pressure on all other city routes for the more local commuters). 2021 is just 3yrs away.

It's a bit like someone buying a 2.0 VW Diesel a couple of years ago for occasional trip, then having a spin around town in one of these new but basic electric cars, worlds apart.

But electric cars were around 3 years ago they're only increasing in popularity now. Hyperloops are not around yet.

4068ac1elhodqr

Stephen15 wrote: »

But electric cars were around 3 years ago they're only increasing in popularity now. Hyperloops are not around yet.

Suppose the question is would it be easier to wait a bit longer to evaluate and plan around it as a possibility, than rush ahead with existing options.

Bearing in mind 12 foot wide hollow tubes may well be easier to install, maintain and upgrade that large bridges, tracks, new roads or other.

Sending commuters in/out of central Dublin efficiently to elsewhere could be classed as a Dublin based infrastructure project.

Stephen15

Tbh with you hyperloops don't look very pleasant to travel in aswell. I personally would not like to travel in a vehicle without windows which hyperloops don't seem to have. They also don't look like a system that's capable of carrying a high capacity with a hyperloop vehicle incapable of carrying more passengers than a standard plane so about 190 people as opposed to train that could carry over 1,000 people so not really a practicle solution.

4068ac1elhodqr

Stephen15 wrote: »

Tbh with you hyperloops don't look very pleasant to travel in aswell. I personally would not like to travel in a vehicle without windows which hyperloops don't seem to have. They also don't look like a system that's capable of carrying a high capacity with a hyperloop vehicle incapable of carrying more passengers than a standard plane so about 190 people as opposed to train that could carry over 1,000 people so not really a practicle solution.

Perhaps, but that's actually the bonus. The individual pods would actually be very small, hence the low footprint. The capacity factor is present, thanks to the immense speed which equates to very high frequency. No moving parts, no machinery, just a sealed pod. From factory to back of truck, direct to loopstation.

Anyway once the concept is fully proven, shares in HTT would be an idea.

Van.Bosch

Teagan Lemon Dandruff wrote: »

Perhaps, but that's actually the bonus. The individual pods would actually be very small, hence the low footprint. The capacity factor is present, thanks to the immense speed which equates to very high frequency. No moving parts, no machinery, just a sealed pod. From factory to back of truck, direct to loopstation.

Anyway once the concept is fully proven, shares in HTT would be an idea.

I wouldn’t be worrying about hyperloop’s! We can’t even have a DART train run on time

marno21

Van.Bosch wrote: »

I wouldn’t be worrying about hyperloop’s! We can’t even have a DART train run on time

I would imagine the hyperloops would be automated.

You wouldn't have the hyperloop being represented by Dermot O'Leary or Brendan Ogle and going on strike regularly. The hyperloop wouldn't complain about getting a Dunnes voucher for Christmas either.

4068ac1elhodqr

Van.Bosch wrote: »

I wouldn’t be worrying about hyperloop’s! We can’t even have a DART train run on time

Sure, it's a all abit 2025.

But think of all the excuses that would be more or less eliminated: Leaves on tracks, traffic accidents, staff (yes fully automated, a specturm48 could probably run it), any type of weather event, track jumpers, derailments, cyclists, engine failure etc etc...

Stephen15

Teagan Lemon Dandruff wrote: »

Sure, it's a all abit 2025.

But think of all the excuses that would be more or less eliminated: Leaves on tracks, traffic accidents, staff (yes fully automated, a specturm48 could probably run it), any type of weather event, track jumpers, derailments, cyclists, engine failure etc etc...

You'd actually find the concept the hyperloop dates back to the 1800s but has yet to take off oddly enough Dalkey once had one.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_railway#

Stephen15

Teagan Lemon Dandruff wrote: »

Perhaps, but that's actually the bonus. The individual pods would actually be very small, hence the low footprint. The capacity factor is present, thanks to the immense speed which equates to very high frequency. No moving parts, no machinery, just a sealed pod. From factory to back of truck, direct to loopstation.

Anyway once the concept is fully proven, shares in HTT would be an idea.

But you would have to have hyperloops services well spaced in order to prevent a pod jam.

4068ac1elhodqr

Stephen15 wrote: »

You'd actually find the concept the hyperloop dates back to the 1800s but has yet to take off oddly enough Dalkey once had one.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_railway#

But did it do 387km/h (240mph) like the 3rd phase of successful testing at the DevLoop site in Nevada?

All components of the system were put through their paces during the full-scale test on December 15.

This includes the airlock, electric motor, advanced controls and power electronics, custom magnetic levitation and guidance, pod suspension, and the vacuum.

That arty chap Da Vinci b.1452 did some great conceptual/feasability sketches of helicopters, but seems they haven't got it right yet, sure people are still constantly making newer, better, faster ones.

MJohnston

Mods can we have a separate Hyperloop thread for all the loop hypers?

4068ac1elhodqr

Stephen15 wrote: »

But you would have to have hyperloops services well spaced in order to prevent a pod jam.

Maybe, but there's not a whole lot occupying space in a 'vacum' oddly enough to cause a jam.

Saying that, a 'truck jam' is exactly what will be putting over 100,000 truckers out of work over in the US withing a decade or so. They purposefully jam them together (couple of meters apart) to improve auto piloting abilities of an entire fleet, also known as 'doing the conga'.

4068ac1elhodqr

Sorry everyone, feel free to get back to the diesel engines and heavy moving machinery.

Stephen15

Teagan Lemon Dandruff wrote: »

But did it do 387km/h (240mph) like the 3rd phase of successful testing at the DevLoop site in Nevada?

Could Stevenson's rocket do 431km/ph and still conventional trains have been far more successful. Maybe in a few more years they'll get a lartigue train to do 400km/ph who knows.

sdanseo

In order of common sense, below should be done immediately

1/ DU - could have shovels in the ground early 2019 if they really wanted to. It was advanced enough.
2/ MN - as above. Redesign not warranted. Revert to original plan and start tunneling immediately.
3/ Extend Luas Broombridge to Finglas / Ikea area - could probably be OPEN by 2021 or 2022 with expedited planning.

+ later
4/ Upgrade of Luas Green to metro and connection to MN


What we'll probably get by 2021 instead
1/ MN may actually have started
2/ lots of fancy and extremely expensive renderings of DU
3/ Some new bi mode trains essentially doing exactly what the current Dart+Commuters do but without having to change at Malahide and Connolly
4/ A few fancy bus lanes

LeinsterDub

Teagan Lemon Dandruff wrote: »

The 1st fully fledged system from Musk, is expected 2021.

They are going to go from rusty tube with a car on wheels to 100's of KM of mag lev trains in 3 years (ignoring the actually time to build it )? Not a chance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwLnyzyybYs

Dr Crayfish

Well I'd be happy with a few fast bus routes, hyperloop ffs...

tom1ie

I notice brt is not in the above poll? A proper brt service coupled with strategically placed p+r’s in Dublin would sort out Dublin’s transport problems at a fraction of the cost of all the heavy rail, light rail and metro plans. It just doesn’t have the same political pazzaz!
When I say brt, by the way, I mean tunneling under the city center to allow the brt busses bypass traffic where theirs not enough room for qbc’s.
It’s done in Seattle, and it was used for busses for years very successfully, before they decided to upgrade to full metro because of demand.
Nothing to stop us doing this.

cgcsb

tom1ie wrote: »

I notice brt is not in the above poll? A proper brt service coupled with strategically placed p+r’s in Dublin would sort out Dublin’s transport problems at a fraction of the cost of all the heavy rail, light rail and metro plans. It just doesn’t have the same political pazzaz!
When I say brt, by the way, I mean tunneling under the city center to allow the brt busses bypass traffic where theirs not enough room for qbc’s.
It’s done in Seattle, and it was used for busses for years very successfully, before they decided to upgrade to full metro because of demand.
Nothing to stop us doing this.

We have the demand for metro now though.

tom1ie

cgcsb wrote: »

We have the demand for metro now though.

Yes but your not going to get metro lines, orbital routes and suburb to city center routes built all over Dublin. Whereas a brt system would be relatively easier and quicker to get built taking into account orbital brt’s and eg lucan to cc, swords to cc, Tallaght to cc.
However brt would have to be top standard and a stand alone system to Dublin bus, with integrated ticketing of course.
Dublin bus would act as the feeder system to the brt trunk routes.

markpb

tom1ie wrote: »

Yes but your not going to get metro lines, orbital routes and suburb to city center routes built all over Dublin. Whereas a brt system would be relatively easier and quicker to get built taking into account orbital brt’s and eg lucan to cc, swords to cc, Tallaght to cc.
However brt would have to be top standard and a stand alone system to Dublin bus, with integrated ticketing of course.
Dublin bus would act as the feeder system to the brt trunk routes.

I very much suspect that a high-quality, underground BRT route won't be much cheaper to build or run than an equivalent underground rail line. It will also be impossible to upgrade later without significant disruption.

Phil.x

Why all the separate types of transport, there's no need for a metro north on a different size track. Keep things simple

cgcsb

Phil.x wrote: »

Why all the separate types of transport, there's no need for a metro north on a different size track. Keep things simple

same track as luas

Sam Russell

Phil.x wrote: »

Why all the separate types of transport, there's no need for a metro north on a different size track. Keep things simple

The 'different size track' decision was made when Luas was started and went with 'standard gauge' (4ft 8.5 inch). By introducing the standard gauge into Ireland, there was always going to be an instance when the Irish gauge (1.6m) would clash. Metro will be standard gauge because it is designed to link with the Green Line south of Charlemont. Dart or any heavy rail and Metro can never mix.

The difference between the two gauges is small - 16.5 cm or 6.5 inches. Unfortunately that is too small to run a dual rail system, but enough to make converting bogeys to be expensive.

Unfortunately we are stuck with two incompatible systems.

tom1ie

markpb wrote: »

I very much suspect that a high-quality, underground BRT route won't be much cheaper to build or run than an equivalent underground rail line. It will also be impossible to upgrade later without significant disruption.

Yes but only some of the brt routes have to be underground. For example
On the n4 the brt route could go overground from Adamstown all the way to Heuston on a a dedicated qbc and then go via a tunnel through the city center (with appropriate stops) and emerge on the n1 where a bus lane can go all the way out to swords overground.
The entire brt service does not have to be underground.
Qbc’s and traffic transponders, plus city center (within the canals) congestion charges plus short sections of city center tunnels (where there is no space for qbc’s) would make all the difference and it would effect all of Dublin whereas metro north is probably going to only effect Dublin north.
Don’t get me wrong I’d love a bit of metro north as well but if we could get a system that benefited more people across the city I think that’d be better.

tom1ie

tom1ie wrote: »

Yes but only some of the brt routes have to be underground. For example
On the n4 the brt route could go overground from Adamstown all the way to Heuston on a a dedicated qbc and then go via a tunnel through the city center (with appropriate stops) and emerge on the n1 where a bus lane can go all the way out to swords overground.
The entire brt service does not have to be underground.
Qbc’s and traffic transponders, plus city center (within the canals) congestion charges plus short sections of city center tunnels (where there is no space for qbc’s) would make all the difference and it would effect all of Dublin whereas metro north is probably going to only effect Dublin north.
Don’t get me wrong I’d love a bit of metro north as well but if we could get a system that benefited more people across the city I think that’d be better.

Also rail can be laid in these short sections of tunnel, in case the tunnels are upgraded at a later date, they done this in Seattle, but made a Bollix of it so had to replace the rail anyway. I think they used the wrong type of rail?

LeinsterDub

https://www.facebook.com/NoelRockTD/videos/755460501316617/

Luas Finglas lobbying begins

budhabob

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://www.facebook.com/NoelRockTD/videos/755460501316617/

Luas Finglas lobbying begins

Out of all the light rail options out there, this one probably makes the most sense. It would benefit Finglas no end - an area that has been neglected in terms of investment etc.

Thich Nhat Hanh

What route would it take? I’d love to see that myself lot of city workers are in Charlestown etc nowadays

LeinsterDub

Thich Nhat Hanh wrote: »

What route would it take? I’d love to see that myself lot of city workers are in Charlestown etc nowadays

Get your crayons out and pick a route . There is not even a sniff of an official route currently.

Personally I would like something like this.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1LBbgGV80V1tDgqJgmml6157i8-BmWfIB&usp=sharing