After BXD: The next big public transport project for Dublin?3

Idbatterim

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Traffic can't even figure out red lights and yellow boxes...

yeah they are idiots, then why cant the operator change the signal when approaching such a junction or detectors do it automatically...

obviously when approaching such a junction, because of the idiots that you mention, the tram driver would probably have to or should bring to a halt or crawling speed...

hmmm

Why are all our LUAS lines trundling along slowly into the city centre, when they could be acting as feeder lines into heavy rail stations?

wakka12

Dublin needs ALL of those within next ten years just to reach adequacy levels of public transport

budhabob

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I'm dead set against Luas going further than the M50. It's so slow. I'm dreading they'll plonk it out to Lucan.

Heavy rail please and lots of it.

I'd also settle for Kishoge opening at some point this side of my 40s.

International best practice would also indicate that light rail is only effective over short (relative) distances. We have tended to push it to its limit in this country.

Similarly, international experience would also prove that light rail is not suitable for an airport the size of Dublin.

But why learn from other countries mistakes.

MJohnston

hmmm wrote: »

Why are all our LUAS lines trundling along slowly into the city centre, when they could be acting as feeder lines into heavy rail stations?

Eh, wrong question imo - why are cars allowed to choke up the city centre, making the place extremely difficult to run public transport through? I'd like to see a Quays congestion charge soon.

LeinsterDub

hmmm wrote: »

Why are all our LUAS lines trundling along slowly into the city centre, when they could be acting as feeder lines into heavy rail stations?

https://twitter.com/Father_Ted_/status/331488369039245312?s=17

Replace UHT milk with heavy rail . The DART for example struggles to maintain a 15 minute frequency and is shockingly slow in the central sections

Idbatterim

budhabob wrote: »

International best practice would also indicate that light rail is only effective over short (relative) distances. We have tended to push it to its limit in this country.

Similarly, international experience would also prove that light rail is not suitable for an airport the size of Dublin.

But why learn from other countries mistakes.

yeah but isnt that more expensive? the only thing that matters is the cheapest **** they can get away with here! :mad:

AngryLips

budhabob wrote: »

Similarly, international experience would also prove that light rail is not suitable for an airport the size of Dublin.

But why learn from other countries mistakes.

Similar international experience suggests that it is preferable to run an airport express service rather than a metro, if the aim is to connect the airport, but why let that inconvenient fact get in the way of the obsession with MN?

marno21

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://twitter.com/Father_Ted_/status/331488369039245312?s=17

Replace UHT milk with heavy rail . The DART for example struggles to maintain a 15 minute frequency and is shockingly slow in the central sections

I wouldn't be too worried about central section DART speed - I would think capacity is more of a desire than speed.

Of course, trying to squeeze 4 lines worth of commuter and 3 lines worth of intercity traffic through the 2 track section from north of Connolly station across the Loopline bridge is going to cause issues.

Perhaps a tunnel connecting the N and SW line and using the surface capacity for SE -> W may be an idea.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

So so far in here we've heard trams are ****e, heavy rail is ****e, buses are ****e, cars are ****e and metro underground will never happen cause unions are ****e. Anything to be said for some kind of zeppelin system?

budhabob

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

So so far in here we've heard trams are ****e, heavy rail is ****e, buses are ****e, cars are ****e and metro underground will never happen cause unions are ****e. Anything to be said for some kind of zeppelin system?

Twud avoid the congestion! I'm sold.

budhabob

MJohnston wrote: »

Eh, wrong question imo - why are cars allowed to choke up the city centre, making the place extremely difficult to run public transport through? I'd like to see a Quays congestion charge soon.

Removal of cars keeps getting mentioned as a solution, and it really is.....Once enough alternatives and capacity on the alternatives is available.

CatInABox

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

So so far in here we've heard trams are ****e, heavy rail is ****e, buses are ****e, cars are ****e and metro underground will never happen cause unions are ****e. Anything to be said for some kind of zeppelin system?

Zeppelins are ****e.

ncounties

Similar international experience suggests that it is preferable to run an airport express service rather than a metro, if the aim is to connect the airport, but why let that inconvenient fact get in the way of the obsession with MN?

Why would you prioritise a direct heavy rail link to Dublin Airport, serving nothing else but one stop in the city centre, when a light rail metro link can benefit an entire swathe of the City Centre, North City, Swords and the Airport itself. To prioritise an express (for 9km!) heavy rail link would be insane, besides, you'd be dumped in one place which was less likely to be near where you wanted to be than a city centre metro. And in terms of best practice, Heathrow has a metro and a heavy rail link, but the latter is flipping expensive, and the airport is 23km out of the city. Stockholm, Stanstead, Gatwick, etc. all have heavy rail links but thats because they're flipping miles away from their respective centres. Many German speaking cities, Portuguese, and other regions have metros to their airports, as well as the recently built Helsinki link.

LollipopJimmy

CatInABox wrote: »

Zeppelins are ****e.

Except for Led Zeppelin of course

BonnieSituation

budhabob wrote: »

Removal of cars keeps getting mentioned as a solution, and it really is.....Once enough alternatives and capacity on the alternatives is available.

It's chicken and egg.

Remove cars and bus services improve immeasurably.

Cars need to go. The city can't take it anymore. No point waiting on DU or MN etc. There's no real reason that cars need to navigate through the city at the rush hours. Sure there are exceptions. But out side of those...

Sitting on Arran Quay yesterday was a throw back to the mid 90s when there was no bus lane the length of the quays.

A congestion charge for even just the rush hour period would free up some serious road capacity.

orangerhyme

Luas to Finglas could be done relatively cheaply and quickly and would be great for the area. Also it would open up a huge area of cheap housing stock for buyers.

Maybe extend the Luas on a separate spur from Broombridge to Blanchardstown.
Theres like 100,000 living there so I'm sure the demand is there.

BonnieSituation

orangerhyme wrote: »

Luas to Finglas could be done relatively cheaply and quickly and would be great for the area. Also it would open up a huge area of cheap housing stock for buyers.

Absolutely extending it to Finglas Village should be on the cards and that should be a matter of course really.

Maybe extend the Luas on a separate spur from Broombridge to Blanchardstown.
Theres like 100,000 living there so I'm sure the demand is there.

But serving the sprawl of Blanch and Ongar with a tram... ha.

Perhaps removing Porterstown and Clonsilla LCs and increasing capacity on the Maynooth line with appropriate feeder connections might be a better idea.

The thoughts of getting a tram to Ongar should be enough of a reason to not even consider it.

Zebra3

Not sure a congestion charge is needed for the city, just a reprioritising of space to forms of transport that carry higher numbers.

Private vehicles and taxis need to be squeezed out.

bk

Well the next project to start will likely be BusConnects, the reorganisation and expansion of Dublin city Bus services, along with significant road widenings, more bus lanes, maybe BRT, etc.

After that Metro North/Dublin Metro will be the real big ones.

Though around the time we might see the Finglas and Poolbeg Luas extensions pick up speed, due to how relatively cheap and easy they are (Lucan not so much). Also either Balbriggan or Maynooth Electrification (IE and NTA seem to be arguing about this one).

bk

Zebra3 wrote: »

Not sure a congestion charge is needed for the city, just a reprioritising of space to forms of transport that carry higher numbers.

Private vehicles and taxis need to be squeezed out.

I don't think we will ever see congestion charging like in London. It wouldn't go down well in Irish society and politics. Congestion charging means the rich continue to drive into the city and only the poor are punished. That might go down well with the well heeled English, but it would kick off war here.

No, simply banning all cars for certain streets or even the whole city is what we do here and I think that is more fair. It is really just the car park owners blocking it.

BonnieSituation

Even congestion charging for sections of the day like the variance in PT charges.

So, you want to drive down the north quays between 630 and 1030 or 1530 and 1930? Grand. That's 20 blips please and thank you.

bk

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Even congestion charging for sections of the day like the variance in PT charges.

So, you want to drive down the north quays between 630 and 1030 or 1530 and 1930? Grand. That's 20 blips please and thank you.

As I said, it will just been seen as allowing rich people to continue to drive and to be unfair to the poor. I know it is pure optics, but it simply won't pass Irish politics, no point in even trying.

Instead go for full removal of cars while pushing the angle of enabling large numbers of bus/tram users and it is more likely (though still incredibly hard).

BonnieSituation

bk wrote: »

As I said, it will just been seen as allowing rich people to continue to drive and to be unfair to the poor. I know it is pure optics, but it simply won't pass Irish politics, no point in even trying.

Instead go for full removal of cars while pushing the angle of enabling large numbers of bus/tram users and it is more likely (though still incredibly hard).

I know what you're saying. But for once feck the optics and do what needs to be done.

There are more votes to be won out there for politicians who just get sh!t done rather than pandering to local morons and nimbys.

Idbatterim

Unlike Dublin, London actually has a transport system!

cgcsb

Idbatterim wrote: »

I am dead against more city centre luas lines on surface, which they would be! Cant wait to see what businesses will have to say if they think one will run outside their door, given the experience of LCC.

Build DU, as much of a disgrace as CIE and the unions are, its too damaging for everyone to not build it, because CIE and the unions have to be tackled!

Id like to see the luas linked to bray as is planned and then also extended from broombridge to outside the m50...

We need more Luas tracks in central Dublin before suburban extensions are added. Without capacity in the central area all your suburban trams have nowhere to go when they get into the central area

marno21

cgcsb wrote: »

We need more Luas tracks in central Dublin before suburban extensions are added. Without capacity in the central area all your suburban trams have nowhere to go when they get into the central area

We badly need a segregated east west and north south corridor in the city. The surface Luas lines are jammed without adding more traffic.

bk

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I know what you're saying. But for once feck the optics and do what needs to be done.

There are more votes to be won out there for politicians who just get sh!t done rather than pandering to local morons and nimbys.

Well, I'd actually personally be against congestion charging. I'm not a big fan of congestion charging in London. You have super rich bankers driving their massive SUV's into the city every day as they can easily afford it. I think it is rather unfair.

I much prefer an outright ban on cars in the city. That is the model that most European cities are moving too and it is the more fair option IMO and also probably the more effective (leaves even more room for buses and trams).

I would say in this case, it really isn't about getting **** done, it genuinely goes against Irish societal norms. Of course Irish society is full of inequality, but this one would be far too "in your face" for most people.

budhabob

BonnieSituation wrote: »

It's chicken and egg.

Remove cars and bus services improve immeasurably.

Cars need to go. The city can't take it anymore. No point waiting on DU or MN etc. There's no real reason that cars need to navigate through the city at the rush hours. Sure there are exceptions. But out side of those...

Sitting on Arran Quay yesterday was a throw back to the mid 90s when there was no bus lane the length of the quays.

A congestion charge for even just the rush hour period would free up some serious road capacity.

It's not chicken and egg - that's far too simplistic. Dublin Bus is the work horse of Dublin's public transport. As it stands, there isn't capacity in the existing network (all modes) to take a move from cars. Whilst banning cars frees up pavement, it doesn't address the bigger issues, more busses, more drivers, more express routes, more rail capacity, greater segregation for luas etc etc.

I know I sound negative, but we constantly avoid the main issue for the cheap alternative so I am negative about transport.

bk

budhabob wrote: »

It's not chicken and egg - that's far too simplistic. Dublin Bus is the work horse of Dublin's public transport. As it stands, there isn't capacity in the existing network (all modes) to take a move from cars. Whilst banning cars frees up pavement, it doesn't address the bigger issues, more busses, more drivers, more express routes, more rail capacity, greater segregation for luas etc etc.

I know I sound negative, but we constantly avoid the main issue for the cheap alternative so I am negative about transport.

I'm sorry, but that isn't the main issue at all!

It is relatively cheap and easy to add extra buses and drivers if you really want. The flexibility of buses is one of it's advantages.

The root problem is that their is no point in adding extra buses or trams if the existing ones are already queued up one after the other at peak times and their is no free road space. Their is zero point in adding extra buses to that.

What you need to do is gradually reduce cars to zero over a period of a few years while gradually increasing buses and trams over the same period. As they seem to be doing adding 10% extra buses to the Dublin City Bus fleet, in addition to the up coming increases in Luas.