Luas cross city line

magicbastarder

heading into town last night on the bus, we passed a taxi outside the provost's house at the bottom of grafton street - the taxi driver had gotten out of the car and was talking to his passengers. last i saw as the bus passed by, he was being approached by two gardai, one with a distinctive 'wtf are you doing' look on his face.

Kaisr Sose

magicbastarder wrote: »

not just motorists. i could easily foresee any potential court case involving death or injury being stymied by a judge questioning 'why didn't the cyclist dismount when instructed to?'

In the same way a motorist has to explain why, when overtaking, they did not pass safely, when the rules of the road instucts them to do so? As that requirement is so vague or quantifiable, it’s not enforceable. (Bring on the change to prescribed distances)

IMO, unless there is a statutory instrument or byelaw, obliging cyclists to dismount at that point or any point on the LUAS, a judge can’t /would be wrong to harp that point.

Kaisr Sose

magicbastarder wrote: »

heading into town last night on the bus, we passed a taxi outside the provost's house at the bottom of grafton street - the taxi driver had gotten out of the car and was talking to his passengers. last i saw as the bus passed by, he was being approached by two gardai, one with a distinctive 'wtf are you doing' look on his face.

Too right! Hopefully, it is illegal for a taxi to stop to take on/let off passengers on any part of road is on LUAS infastructure. Knowing some of their form, they will just pullover/ stop without looking...

ford2600

droidus wrote: »

How long until someone sues?

They probably already have, or at least it is in PIAB system but not yet in court system.

Is there anything different about Dublin trams, in terms of risk to cyclists when compared to our European neighbours?

There is no perfect solution, when you give over a section of public property to one mode of transport it is always at a cost to others. When Cork introduced bike lanes, loads of pedestrians sued and won. Most of those decisions were overturned in the high court.

New infrastructure takes time for people to get used to it and adapt.

The rubber insert isn't a real solution; given in probably won't last long with regular maintenance/road closures.

The only real solution, which would limit risk on right turn off Parnell street, would be a redesign of area (as suggested by Mercian Pro) but without knowing all the other inputs from stakeholders like property owners/utility providers/roads department/pedestrians design for disabled near trams etc I'm not sure how easy/feasible such a redesign would be.

droidus

One thing I think can be said fairly is that Cyclists were the one group of stakeholders utterly excluded from the process, to what seems to be an insanely reckless degree.

MB Lacey

Moflojo wrote: »

coming from Westmoreland Street you'd stay to the left, hook into the top of Bachelor's Walk and wait for the next light to proceed straight towards Eden Quay.

Coming from Bachelor's Walk you'd stay to the left, hook into the bottom of O'Connell Street and wait for the next light to proceed across O'Connell Bridge.

This worked a treat the other evening Moflojo, so that's one of the many Luas crossings sorted.

Moflojo

droidus wrote: »

One thing I think can be said fairly is that Cyclists were the one group of stakeholders utterly excluded from the process, to what seems to be an insanely reckless degree.

From what I've heard Dublin Bus were consulted with on an almost weekly basis. Now I'm not suggesting cycling advocates should have received the same treatment, but more than one consultation in the entire construction process would have been nice.

The frequently-changing nature of the road layout during construction, along with the sudden appearance of tram rails, caused an awful lot of falls.

To be perfectly honest, it is just through sheer blind luck that no one was killed during the construction phase. There was no protection for cyclists throughout construction. None at all.

Moflojo

MB Lacey wrote: »

This worked a treat the other evening Moflojo, so that's one of the many Luas crossings sorted.

Glad to hear it. Try to spread the word amongst your fellow commuters if you're stopped around those types of junctions.

Wishbone Ash

https://www.herald.ie/news/grisly-images-show-cyclists-horrific-luas-line-injuries-36412875.html

buffalo

Went from O'Connell St to Parnell Square today, had no idea where I was supposed to be. The bend from OCS past the Parnell monument is indeed dicey - the track curves from a tram-only lane to your right into the lane you want to be in, meaning you have to cross a curving line at an acute angle, or hope that any following car slows enough while you cycle perpendicular to the flow of traffic.

Turning right toward the Square is more clearcut, but still requires scrubbing any speed for safety.

I'm probably not explaining it very clearly, but I think a cyclist-only green would be very useful for people to pick their path without the intimidation of motor traffic, though I'm not sure the junction would take it judging from traffic chaos reports.

buffalo

Where Cyclists Have Collided with Luas Tracks, Mapped:
https://www.dublininquirer.com/2017/12/20/where-cyclists-have-collided-with-luas-tracks-mapped/

tomasrojo

My nemesis, St James', makes an appearance there.

tomasrojo

Weird to call coming a cropper on tracks "a collision", but good idea.

beauf

Theres one near the point not near luas lines....

buffalo

beauf wrote: »

Theres one near the point not near luas lines....

You can find out more details by clicking on it:

Cycling along west on the off-road cycle track near the 3 Arena in rain. I moved off the track to accommodate a cyclist traveling towards me. My front wheel passed over the fake Luas tracks and skidded out. I fell off bike.

Presumably the 'fake Luas tracks' are the old port train lines that are still embedded in the ground down there. (https://goo.gl/maps/32HxdhychPK2)

brocbrocach

Almost exactly a year ago people on boards were warning of all the trouble the new tracks were going to cause. It was obvious then that there would be injuries and accidents and any semi-competent consultation should have spotted what most people on that thread saw as obvious. Now a year later, people are hospitalised and suing.
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057679093

LuckyLloyd

If it’s dangerous to be cycling through this section of the City lads, get off yer bike and seek an alternative solution. It’s your life you’re playing with.

LuckyLloyd

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

If it’s dangerous to be cycling through this section of the City lads, get off yer bike and seek an alternative solution. It’s your life you’re playing with.

Bike forum posters in cycling advocacy shocker!

07Lapierre

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

If it’s dangerous to be cycling through this section of the City lads, get off yer bike and seek an alternative solution. It’s your life you’re playing with.

Here's a solution...what about signs that say: "Motorists, Beware of Cyclists trying to cross Luas tracks, Give them space!"

Ok a lot to put on a single sign, so maybe one of this LED signs like the ones that they have on Motorways that can display a message by scrolling the message across the screen?

Or what about painting lines on the road to show inexperienced cyclists the correct angle to cross the tracks at Dame street and Parnell Square?

beauf

Pity we don't have a route find app in google maps where you can exclude certain roads and junctions.

The only way I know is to drag the route off to my preferred route and see what it comes up with. or add way points.

As a cyclist have I sometimes prefer not to take the shortest route, but the route I prefer to cycle on. Which is usually to avoid certain roads and junctions.

Arcade_Tryer

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

If it’s dangerous to be cycling through this section of the City lads, get off yer bike and seek an alternative solution. It’s your life you’re playing with.

As bad as the Luas Tracks are in places, by far the biggest danger to cyclists in Dublin is still drivers. Doubly so when they pressure cyclists to perform dangerous manoeuvres around Luas Tracks by tailgating and beeping horns.

LuckyLloyd

Lads, I have no quarrel here on the dangers faced by cyclists and the hierarchy of vulnerability on the road. Nor am I arguing that the appropriate consideration has been made for cyclists during the CC implementation - cyclists are one part of a very poorly planned implementation that isn’t operationally ready from what I can see.

However, in the context of the current situation and the dangers being adequately described why risk that section around Parnell Square at all? One misjudgement and you’re goosed. By all means lobby and advocate for improvements.

07Lapierre

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

However, in the context of the current situation and the dangers being adequately described why risk that section around Parnell Square at all? One misjudgement and you’re goosed. By all means lobby and advocate for improvements.

Agreed...lots of cyclists will avoid the area, which is a big problem. Cycling is to be encouraged, not discouraged. Less cyclists will mean more traffic etc. We should be doing everything possible to make cycling safe and efficient.

IMO the best way to do this "in the context of the current situation" is to ban private cars from the city centre. Less cars will give cyclists (and pedestrians) more room to manoeuvre across the Luas tracks.

Have you ever been to Ghent? The whole city centre is cobble stone streets, with trams running along them, but it's very safe to cycle in as cars are not allowed in the area.

Mercian Pro

Just to put this in context especially for those advocating that cyclists should dismount or avoid the College Green and Parnell St areas:

The Dublin City Centre Transport Study was adopted by Dublin City Council and the NTA as recently as 2016. This followed a full consultation period and factored in the Luas Cross City line which was then under construction. The Study includes an objective to develop key Primary Cycle routes from the 2013 Greater Dublin Area Cycle Network Plan. The North-South Central Spine route in this Plan runs from College Green to Parnell Square via O'Connell Street and the East-West Central Spine runs from Nassau Street to College Green.

Interestingly, the Plan seems to indicate that the North-South Spine should continue up the east side of Parnell Square from O'Connell Street rather than go around the south and west sides as it currently does but I suspect we could be waiting a while for this to happen.

OleRodrigo

Another day, of cyclists navigating the new infrastructure with no dramas.

Perhaps its those of us that live and/ or work around the city center that don't have a problem? It does seem the further away you live, the more shrill your indignation will be.

Is it just suburban NIMBY-ism rearing its head again, looking for something to complain about? I think so. The original Luas tracks and also, believe it or not, the Dublin Bike scheme was met with the same breathless outrage, by those living on the fringes of the city.

brocbrocach

OleRodrigo wrote: »

Another day, of cyclists navigating the new infrastructure with no dramas.

Perhaps its those of us that live and/ or work around the city center that don't have a problem? It does seem the further away you live, the more shrill your indignation will be.

Is it just suburban NIMBY-ism rearing its head again, looking for something to complain about? I think so. The original Luas tracks and also, believe it or not, the Dublin Bike scheme was met with the same breathless outrage, by those living on the fringes of the city.

Suburban NIMBYism? The accounts in this thread and the DCC map on their own are evidence that it's a problem.
Why do you feel you can discount that evidence?

eeeee

You can fall on the luas tracks not matter how long you're going in and out of the city centre, or how experienced you are.

I have a friend that has been racing for 7 years, extremely confident and experienced cyclist, has been commuting through the city centre for 10 years, and he fell on it causing lasting shoulder damage this year.
Another friend broke her wrist falling on the tracks.

You don't hear about half the incidents that happen, so i think it's naive and arrogant to assume those who fall or have issues are suffering from 'suburban nimbyism' :rolleyes: talk about hyperbole! The 'I'm fine, everyone who isn't is a fool' attitude helps no one, and, from the heft of evidence and incidents indicate the lines are not without issue.

They are an issue, they're not going anywhere and we are going to have to find a way to safely navigate them. It's certainly not pleasant in the rain. That is an undeniable fact. We can hope for and work towards a better street design with them.

ThisRegard

OleRodrigo wrote: »

It does seem the further away you live......

Is it just suburban NIMBY-ism...

How does that work out as NIMBYism then?

magicbastarder

On the bus passing the side of the rotunda last night (i.e. the car park at the side, beside the ambassador) it was interesting to see how dark the shadows were. The lighting on that stretch all seems to be on one side of the road so whether a bus is sitting waiting it casts a deep shade onto the luas tracks.

tomasrojo

nee wrote: »

You can fall on the luas tracks not matter how long you're going in and out of the city centre, or how experienced you are.

It's generally(*) agreed that I'm completely awesome, and I slipped on them.

(*) Ok then, "universally".