Luas cross city line

07Lapierre

Cycled into town this evening to see what all the fuss is about the Luas tracks around Dame Street.

First impression is that they are certainly challenging for anyone not used to tram tracks. I cycled up O Connell Street towards Parnell Street and I found turning right off Parnell Street onto Parnell Square West the most challenging as you have to cope with the traffic, the tram tracks and the cobbles!

It was also a new experience turning left at the bottom of Dawson Street and heading down to Dame street! That's been a one way Street in the opposite direction for as long as I can remember!

It will be interesting to see how long it takes for people to get used to the new Street layout.

ED E

07Lapierre wrote: »

turning right off Parnell Street onto Parnell Square West the most challenging

Fúckin lethal.


Props to the coach driver who gave me rakes of space on college green today.

Kaisr Sose

You would think they know by now how slippy cobbles can be – yet the obsession continues!

“They look so nice, and give a olde world asthethic to modern infastructure”

ozzy jr

07Lapierre wrote: »

I found turning right off Parnell Street onto Parnell Square West the most challenging as you have to cope with the traffic, the tram tracks and the cobbles!

I have the Strava KOM along Parnell Square West, so with the track and cobbles there now, I don't think it will ever be beaten

magicbastarder

this is the topic of the DCC meeting on monday.

Luas Cross City and Cycling
Monday, December 11, 2017
8pm, Central Hotel, Exchequer Street

The Luas Cross City is a boon for Dublin city, but what does it mean for people who cycle along or across this route? Cycling and on-street tram tracks is a safety issue all over the world. In general, cyclists learn fast, and realise that they must take greater care around the tracks, and ideally cross them at as close to a right angle as possible, while at the same time be aware of surrounding traffic.

Dublin Cycling Campaign have received numerous stories and reports of cycling crashes / incidents over the past months, some of them quite serious. Our December public meeting will discuss the impact for cyclists and whether changes are needed to make the route safer for cyclists.

Muahahaha

DCC are going to have to put rubber in the tracks. But it will take a number of bad injuries and maybe even worse before they actually realise it.

magicbastarder

btw, DCC in my post meant dublin cycling campaign; i assume you're referring to dublin city council?
i'm not sure how easy it is to retrofit the tracks with that rubber, but i doubt it would be DCC's responsibility, they don't operate the luas.

ED E

Muahahaha wrote: »

DCC are going to have to put rubber in the tracks. But it will take a number of bad injuries and maybe even worse before they actually realise it.

That stuff was tested and found to not last very long. Would need regular replacing and Transdev will in their arse pay to do it every fortnight.

OleRodrigo

Makes more sense for cyclists step up and improve their roadcraft, like they do in other cities with tram systems.

Nothing like going on your ear to improve your muscle memory.

magicbastarder

i've no muscles in my ear.

Mercian Pro

OleRodrigo wrote: »

Makes more sense for cyclists step up and improve their roadcraft, like they do in other cities with tram systems.

Nothing like going on your ear to improve your muscle memory.

Like in Manchester and Edinburgh where cyclists have been killed after falling on tram tracks? Do you really think they would still be alive if they had perfected the bunny-hop?

Cycling in cities should be safe for everyone, not just a small minority who think roadcraft will save them.

07Lapierre

OleRodrigo wrote: »

Makes more sense for cyclists step up and improve their roadcraft, like they do in other cities with tram systems.

Nothing like going on your ear to improve your muscle memory.

Makes you wonder how there are so many car crashes nowadays.....you'd think everyone would have learned to drive by now :rolleyes:

07Lapierre

ED E wrote: »

Fúckin lethal.


Props to the coach driver who gave me rakes of space on college green today.

I think the safest way to cycle from College Green to Parnell Square is to cycle right smack in the middle of the lane. When you need to cross the tracks, slow down (and make sure the cars behind you have slowed), then make the turn at as near to 90 degrees as possible.

magicbastarder

07Lapierre wrote: »

Makes you wonder how there are so many car crashes nowadays.....you'd think everyone would have learned to drive by now :rolleyes:

well, the crashes would help people be better drivers.

OleRodrigo

All the mindless hysteria on the internet wont change the fact that Dublin city centre is safe to cycle in ( if you're a competent, responsible, civic minded cyclist ) and the Luas extension is great addition to all walks of life here.

You can whinge all you like but those are the facts.

As I live off Parnell Square, I pass that junction at least once a day, in all weathers. Taking the lane early and crossing at a good angle and keeping left on the square works best for all conditions.

P_1

Never had any issues with the tracks myself. Agree that the city center is perfectly safe to cycle in, albeit painfully slow at times owing to the volume of slow moving cars.

magicbastarder

OleRodrigo wrote: »

As I live off Parnell Square, I pass that junction at least once a day, in all weathers. Taking the lane early and crossing at a good angle and keeping left on the square works best for all conditions.

you're a confident, experienced cyclist and you're able to deal with it; and that's great. but it's not that sort of cyclist who'll generally have trouble with it. it's the occasional dublin-bike using, or what have you, sort of cyclist, who'll more likely come a cropper - and it should have been part of the design brief to deal with that factor - and not simply stick up lazy 'cyclists dismount' signs which is an institutional way of doing a pontius pilate on the issue.

OleRodrigo

magicbastarder wrote: »

you're a confident, experienced cyclist and you're able to deal with it; and that's great. but it's not that sort of cyclist who'll generally have trouble with it. it's the occasional dublin-bike using, or what have you, sort of cyclist, who'll more likely come a cropper - and it should have been part of the design brief to deal with that factor - and not simply stick up lazy 'cyclists dismount' signs which is an institutional way of doing a pontius pilate on the issue.

Spare me the melodrama Magicbastarder

As the MD of Transdev said this week, in his experience, all tram projects he has worked on throughout the world, cyclists don't have a problem and soon adapt.

Whats so different about Dublin? Not much as it turns out.

You can google his remarks in the Irish Times.

AndrewJRenko

OleRodrigo wrote: »

Spare me the melodrama Magicbastarder

As the MD of Transdev said this week, in his experience, all tram projects he has worked on throughout the world, cyclists don't have a problem and soon adapt.

Whats so different about Dublin? Not much as it turns out.

You can google his remarks in the Irish Times.

He lied.
http://irishcycle.com/2017/12/08/luas-company-comments-on-cycling-false-and-dismissive-says-campaigners/

magicbastarder

i live on the projected path of metro north. i'll check back in here when it's completed and i will have some empirical data to report on how i have fared with light rail lines. that said, by then my bike will probably be artificially intelligent and i will have been asleep on it when the lines were traversed.

Corca Baiscinn

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

He lied.
http://irishcycle.com/2017/12/08/luas-company-comments-on-cycling-false-and-dismissive-says-campaigners/

Or at least was misinformed. Even Amsterdam deals with cycling injuries caused by tram tracks according to something I read this morning.

Kaisr Sose

When laying the revised track layout at Middle Abbey /O’Connell St, they didn’t even bother to put the tarmac level /seamless with the concete the track is encased in. Instead it’s lower/bumpy which just makes it a little bit harder on cyclists. How difficult is it to get it flush?

magicbastarder

OleRodrigo wrote: »

As the MD of Transdev said this week, in his experience, all tram projects he has worked on throughout the world, cyclists don't have a problem and soon adapt.

i guess others got there before me, but citing the person with possibly the most interest in downplaying the concerns, is not a way of convincing me there are none.

Kaisr Sose

magicbastarder wrote: »

i guess others got there before me, but citing the person with possibly the most interest in downplaying the concerns, is not a way of convincing me there are none.

It’s like comical Ali in BaghdadGulf War II!

Corca Baiscinn

magicbastarder wrote: »

i guess others got there before me, but citing the person with possibly the most interest in downplaying the concerns, is not a way of convincing me there are none.

How right you are...In the article Mr Transdev also said that he regards taxis as Public Tansport.

Well,he would, wouldn't he as according to this link https://www.transdev.com/en/Business/transport-demand

"With a solid presence on the taxi market in the United States, Transdev is the biggest operator in Baltimore, Denver, Pittsburg, and Kansas City. In Europe, its Dutch subsidiary Connexion Taxi is the leader in the Netherlands, with 30% of the market. Transdev is also a partner of taxi companies in Sweden and France".

AndrewJRenko

Corca Baiscinn wrote: »

Or at least was misinformed.

If you put yourself out there as an industry expert, you would be expected to have the relevant information to hand.

dr.fuzzenstein

magicbastarder wrote: »

well, the crashes would help people be better drivers.

That is like saying that it would be drier if it rained less.

Pinch Flat

ozzy jr wrote: »

I have the Strava KOM along Parnell Square West, so with the track and cobbles there now, I don't think it will ever be beaten

Hold my beer....

Moflojo

07Lapierre wrote: »

I think the safest way to cycle from College Green to Parnell Square is to cycle right smack in the middle of the lane. When you need to cross the tracks, slow down (and make sure the cars behind you have slowed), then make the turn at as near to 90 degrees as possible.

This makes the most sense to me too. What would be helpful would be to paint bicycle logos in the middle of the tracks to encourage people to cycle there (and legitimise the practice in the eyes of other road users) and take down those bloody stupid "Cyclists Dismount" signs.

Mercian Pro

I had thought that the yellow dots on the road near some of the luas tracks might have been the recommended cycling line but not so according to the Code of Practice for Contractors. They mark the outer edge of the trams. I did discover what to do if you fall in front or a tram:

• Warn drivers of approaching trams as follows:
- In daylight, by holding both hands over one’s head and at dusk or darkness by holding RED light steady in the direction of the tram.
- In daylight or darkness, by waving two arms, any coloured flag or light vigorously above one’s head or from side to side.

Wishbone Ash

OleRodrigo wrote: »

.....As I live off Parnell Square, I pass that junction at least once a day, in all weathers. Taking the lane early ....

How do you take the lane early there as it's a bit awkward to do so when you're on the left of double tram lines on the approach to the junction?

I use that junction regularly and have several ad hoc methods.

OleRodrigo

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

How do you take the lane early there as it's a bit awkward to do so when you're on the left of double tram lines on the approach to the junction?

I use that junction regularly and have several ad hoc methods.

Take a position in the centre of the West bound tracks early - straight after the turn from O'Connell St or after the crossing from Parnell St. If you end up on the left of the West bound tracks it'll make turning harder. Its not too difficult as you should be moving with the traffic from either approach when the light goes green, allowing you to take charge quickly and easily. If its already full, nose your way in when it starts to move.

You need to be in the centre of the West bound tracks or between the West and Southbound tracks.

Making the turn across the tracks on to the square as far down as possible, so you end up outside the Sinn Fein offices and have given plenty of space to traffic to pass on your right.

The problem that I have seen is cyclists intuitively take a position to the left of the ( West bound) tracks, between the tracks and the traffic island, which leaves them exposed to restless cars squeezing past, or worse, some delivery guy going straight ahead ( which is illegal ).

uck51js9zml2yt

OleRodrigo wrote: »

Take a position in the centre of the West bound tracks early - straight after the turn from O'Connell St or after the crossing from Parnell St. If you end up on the left of the West bound tracks it'll make turning harder. Its not too difficult as you should be moving with the traffic from either approach when the light goes green, allowing you to take charge quickly and easily. If its already full, nose your way in when it starts to move.

You need to be in the left of the West bound tracks or between the West and Southbound tracks.

Making the turn across the tracks on to the square as far down as possible, so you end up outside the Sinn Fein offices and have given plenty of space to traffic to pass on your right.

The problem that I have seen is cyclists intuitively take a position to the left of the ( West bound) tracks, between the tracks and the traffic island, which leaves them exposed to restless cars squeezing past, or worse, some delivery guy going straight ahead ( which is illegal ).

I'm normally in the left of those tracks and cross over almost perpendicular to the tracks up Parnell sq. That's of course before the luas went live.

My lesson was to be in the straight ahead lane on O'Connell bridge and stick to the middle of the tracks.( this may change) . Got caught on the right of the tracks in October and came off when I tried crossing them. 2 months on and my leg hasn't healed yet.

Wishbone Ash

OleRodrigo wrote: »

.....The problem that I have seen is cyclists intuitively take a position to the left of the ( West bound) tracks, between the tracks and the traffic island, which leaves them exposed to restless cars squeezing past, or worse, some delivery guy going straight ahead ( which is illegal ).

That's what I usually tend to do. I'll try your method the next time I'm there.

(If the pedestrian lights activate just before the junction, I sometimes use the delay of the red light to move sideways across both tram lines and continue to the turn on on the right side of the street).

tomasrojo

I'm not sure what I'm going to do yet. I don't go through the city centre much at the moment. I will probably avoid the areas with the new tracks for a while.

That Transdev guy is some joker though. "What, cyclists coming a cropper on tram tracks? Whoever heard of such a thing?"

OleRodrigo

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

That's what I usually tend to do. I'll try your method the next time I'm there.

(If the pedestrian lights activate just before the junction, I sometimes use the delay of the red light to move sideways across both tram lines and continue to the turn on on the right side of the street).

Keeping to the right can be problematic. Outside the Rotunda there's usually traffic trying to park/ ambulances etc...and then you have to move across traffic to get to left side of the square. Motorists tend to put the foot down once they turn at that point, as you have probably noticed, as its the first open stretch of road on a journey through the city centre. Keeping your trajectory towards the left avoids all of that, except for busses pulling in, but if you've taken the tracks earlier they cant pull across you.

Grassey

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Hold my beer....

While you flag it and have it removed as a dangerous segment? :D:D:D

carltonleon

OleRodrigo wrote: »

Keeping to the right can be problematic. Outside the Rotunda there's usually traffic trying to park/ ambulances etc...and then you have to move across traffic to get to left side of the square. Motorists tend to put the foot down once they turn at that point, as you have probably noticed, as its the first open stretch of road on a journey through the city centre. Keeping your trajectory towards the left avoids all of that, except for busses pulling in, but if you've taken the tracks earlier they cant pull across you.

In fairness OleRodrigo, for an inexperienced cyclist trying to get from O'Connell St to Parnell Sq it is daunting to try and get across 4 tram lines especially were it is almost impossible to dissect it at a 90degree angle. I have pointed this out in a couple of earlier threads on the subject. I crossed it many times over the Summer and always thought that someone will come a cropper there once the LUAS starts, especially on a wet or icy day

OleRodrigo

carltonleon wrote: »

In fairness OleRodrigo, for an inexperienced cyclist trying to get from O'Connell St to Parnell Sq it is daunting to try and get across 4 tram lines especially were it is almost impossible to dissect it at a 90degree angle. I have pointed this out in a couple of earlier threads on the subject. I crossed it many times over the Summer and always thought that someone will come a cropper there once the LUAS starts, especially on a wet or icy day

I disagree. Once or twice is enough to form an approach that works. The Parnell Sq junction is probably the trickiest of the new infrastructure but its still entirely manageable if you apply yourself and after a couple of attempts its done and dusted.

I don't buy all this ' inexperienced ' malarky, its a cop out. You cant become experienced without doing it in the first place.

You don't have to cross at 90 degrees - between 45 and 90 also works. Crossing four lines is the same as crossing one, once you have approached the first one correctly.

buffalo

OleRodrigo wrote: »

I disagree. Once or twice is enough to form an approach that works. The Parnell Sq junction is probably the trickiest of the new infrastructure but its still entirely manageable if you apply yourself and after a couple of attempts its done and dusted.

Once or twice is enough to take a tumble and decide not to cycle in the city centre again.

I was up that way during construction work, and I'm not looking forward to having to go through it at some point in the future.

carltonleon

OleRodrigo wrote: »

I disagree. Once or twice is enough to form an approach that works. The Parnell Sq junction is probably the trickiest of the new infrastructure but its still entirely manageable if you apply yourself and after a couple of attempts its done and dusted.

I don't buy all this ' inexperienced ' malarky, its a cop out. You cant become experienced without doing it in the first place.

You don't have to cross at 90 degrees - between 45 and 90 also works. Crossing four lines is the same as crossing one, once you have approached the first one correctly.

Of course you can't become experienced without doing it in the first place. What I am saying is that some people will look at it and just go '**** that, its too dodgy and I'm not cycling on it'.
I understand you don't have to cross at 90 degree angle but at best you cross these at about a 30 degree angle as the track curves around as you go across it.
Like I said, I have done it several times but I still think that it is tricky in traffic

tomasrojo

If you are crossing at 30 degrees everyday, you will eventually slide on the track, probably in the rain.

(By "you" I mean the impersonal everyman. "One" just sounded pretentious.)

07Lapierre

Crossing tracks at 30 degrees on a "Dublin Bike" should be ok. Crossing at 30 degrees on a road bike with 23mm tyres??

tomasrojo

After a year or so of crossing a track at about 30 degrees with no problems I slipped in torrential rain. 28mm tyres.

(I was fine.)

P_1

Well college green was a nightmare this morning coming from pearse street. Busses everywhere

magicbastarder

there was a signalling failure on the luas line this morning. before now, that'd only affect luas lines - now it seems it causes city centre bedlam. still, what timing, with the frost and proximity to christmas, and first rush hour shakedown of the luas, it was near a perfect storm.

uck51js9zml2yt

P_1 wrote: »

Well college green was a nightmare this morning coming from pearse street. Busses everywhere

D'olier st was no better.
Bikes had nowhere to go.
Took me 20 minutes from the bridge to the of d'olier st in the car.:(

Arcade_Tryer

Damien Happy Vane wrote: »

Took me 20 minutes from the bridge to the of d'olier st in the car.(

Good.

07Lapierre

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

Good.

Ah I wouldn't go that far! But I think the one mode of transport that is no longer welcome in the city centre is the single occupant private car. I think anyone that has to drive into the city centre is really at a disadvantage.

magicbastarder

magicbastarder wrote: »

this is the topic of the DCC meeting on monday.

Am at this meeting - we need a boards secret signal to identify each other when we meet in a public place.

Arcade_Tryer

07Lapierre wrote: »

Ah I wouldn't go that far! But I think the one mode of transport that is no longer welcome in the city centre is the single occupant private car. I think anyone that has to drive into the city centre is really at a disadvantage.

It's a favorable outcome.