Luas Tracks - Be Careful out there

Finnrocco · 06-12-2016 3:35pm #1

Saw a young lady take a fierce hard fall on O'Connell Bridge this morning.

The way she went down made me think she hit a patch of ice, but then I copped it was Luas tracks.

2 other lads helped her up and got her in off the road but she was very shaken.

Watch out folks, its a minefield out there!

Idbatterim · 06-12-2016 3:48pm

when I was in france for the euros, I noticed this in bordeaux, a lot of people just coming off their bikes due to lack of vigilance, you are crossing a bloody tram track. are they stupid or something?

Carawaystick · 06-12-2016 3:52pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

are they stupid or something?

Who? the engineers who placed a dangerous obstacle in the way of cyclists?

Idbatterim · 06-12-2016 3:57pm

it doent take a genius to work out, that you simply go across them at a correct angle...

OleRodrigo · 06-12-2016 3:57pm

The Luas works are well signposted and at key points, well marshalled. The Engineers stop short of taking someones bike and showing them how to cross a track at an angle, but maybe they should be doing this too ?

I've seen them stop pedestrians from walking into danger because they were glued to their phones.

Leroy42 · 06-12-2016 4:05pm

This tracks at O'Connell bridge do create a particular problem. They run up the inside of the leftmost right turning lane, basically right where a bicycle should be positioning itself.

Its all well and good saying cut across them at right angles, but that particular stretch, with all the traffic etc seems overly difficult.

in saying that, I go that route every day and never had a real issue apart from being extra careful

Carawaystick · 06-12-2016 4:08pm

The tram tracks cross at very oblique angles across bike traffic flow at the junction of O'Connell Bridge and Westmoreland st, and again on O' Connell street.

The traffic lanes should have been configured to have traffic crossing the tracks at steeper angles.

The Engineers Ireland code of ethics section 1.9 wrote:

At all times in their relations with the public, Members shall
apply their skill and experience to the common good and the
advancement of human welfare with proper regard for the
safety, health and welfare of the public. A Member shall not
engage in any activity which he/she knows or has reasonable
grounds for believing is likely to result in a serious detriment
to any person or persons.

Ryder · 06-12-2016 4:10pm

OleRodrigo wrote: »

The Luas works are well signposted and at key points, well marshalled. The Engineers stop short of taking someones bike and showing them how to cross a track at an angle, but maybe they should be doing this too ?

I've seen them stop pedestrians from walking into danger because they were glued to their phones.

Pretty slippery when wet. Not something you might expect if not cycling too often

Also James's Street being an example of where the tracks run within 2 feet of the kerb. Easy to stray onto the tracks there as cars coming from the estates encroach on the junction.

Mousewar · 06-12-2016 4:16pm

Could not they put a bit of grip on the tracks? Like a bit of cross-hatching or something?

Moflojo · 06-12-2016 4:57pm

OleRodrigo wrote: »

The Engineers stop short of taking someones bike and showing them how to cross a track at an angle, but maybe they should be doing this too?

There are signposts that specifically alert cyclists about the tram lines, although this assumes that the cyclist understands the inherent danger that tram lines pose. Unfortunately some cyclists learn this the hard way, but I do think that knowing the inherent danger of tram lines [in a country with only two tram lines] probably falls slightly outside the bounds of "common sense" so, to come full circle, yes I agree that there should probably be more done to alert and educate cyclists about the danger of the tram lines.

irlirishkev · 06-12-2016 4:58pm

Ryder wrote: »

..
Also James's Street being an example of where the tracks run within 2 feet of the kerb. Easy to stray onto the tracks there as cars coming from the estates encroach on the junction.

Also that particular stretch has some nice pot-holey drains to avoid as well, reducing your space down to a couple of inches.. It's a bit of an obstacle course.

schemingbohemia · 06-12-2016 5:03pm

Well they have put information up on their website and tweeted it, but should really be on the main luas site rather than just the cross-city site

http://www.luascrosscity.ie/news/track-aware-cycle-safety/

http://www.luascrosscity.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Luas-Cross-City-Track-Awareness-for-Cyclists-with-guidelines.jpg

FortySeven · 06-12-2016 5:05pm

I used to ride 20 odd miles every day and crossed the same tracks. I got caught once or twice. No warning, one minute you're grand, the next horizontal and heading for the tarmac.

Can catch the best of us out.

Annie get your Run · 06-12-2016 5:37pm

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Well they have put information up on their website and tweeted it, but should really be on the main luas site rather than just the cross-city site

http://www.luascrosscity.ie/news/track-aware-cycle-safety/

http://www.luascrosscity.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Luas-Cross-City-Track-Awareness-for-Cyclists-with-guidelines.jpg

What a stupid place to put these warnings, I didn't even know that website existed. Putting it on the main Luas website is no use to cyclists either unless they also use the Luas! Perhaps ask cycling forums to send it out on FB or twitter or the RSA. Having said that I cross that junction every day and just slow down but I can see how easy it would be to loose grip and balance.

jos28 · 06-12-2016 5:43pm

Took a bad tumble myself today and I was 2 feet away from the track. Heading down Abbey St towards Liffey St, I had made up my mind to get off the bike and cross at the pedestrian crossing. Met a slippy patch before I got there and hit the deck. My helmet hit the edge of the track but my shoulder, elbow, knee and my pride took the worst of it. Gonna be sore tomorrow. Please take care out there, the roads are so slippy in these conditions.

magicbastarder · 06-12-2016 5:48pm

my wife saw someone come a cropper on them up on parnell street today too.

Wishbone Ash · 06-12-2016 6:32pm

The ones that are not in use yet usually have the ruts temporarily filled in until they are active - such as at Trinity college. I'm pretty sure O'Connell Bridge is the same.

listermint · 06-12-2016 6:36pm

If you can't handle tracks get off and walk to the other side.,thats the long and short of it. Expecting engineers to engineer their way out of all eventualities is impossible.

Personally responsibility has to take place. You see the signs you know their slippy when wet.

I know the same for circular shores on the motorbike in fact it's part of the training.

Be smart or be oblivious its your choice

brocbrocach · 06-12-2016 7:10pm

listermint wrote: »

If you can't handle tracks get off and walk to the other side.,thats the long and short of it. Expecting engineers to engineer their way out of all eventualities is impossible.

Personally responsibility has to take place. You see the signs you know their slippy when wet.

I know the same for circular shores on the motorbike in fact it's part of the training.

Be smart or be oblivious its your choice

How about expecting that engineers take cyclists into account when building such new infrastructure? Traffic actually sways across three lanes there. Cyclists, good and bad, will be pushed into those tracks at a poor angle. If they couldn't build it with a reasonable degree of safety they shouldn't have built it.
Cyclists are a huge percentage of city-centre traffic after all, and this is an obstacle course in the middle of the busiest street in Ireland. The college green stretch is a similar deathtrap. It's not a nice theoretical problem to dismiss so smugly - people will be killed or hurt on it.

magicbastarder · 06-12-2016 7:17pm

i've a vague memory of hearing that tram tracks in toronto (a city in canada anyway i think) have rubber flanges on them which are too heavy duty for the weight of a cyclist to push out of the way. must look that one up.

tomasrojo · 06-12-2016 9:22pm

FortySeven wrote: »

I used to ride 20 odd miles every day and crossed the same tracks. I got caught once or twice. No warning, one minute you're grand, the next horizontal and heading for the tarmac.

Can catch the best of us out.

Yeah, happened to me in torrential rain passing the entrance to St. James' Hospital. Unbelievably swift disappearance of the bike and me like Wile E. Coyote where the bike used to be. No warning at all. The bike was just whipped out from under me.

I know about crossing tracks at the correct angle, and I wasn't far off a right-angle approach.

I should have maybe used the cycle track, but I didn't like losing priority for no good reason at the entrance to the hospital. After that fall, I just went a different way home.

listermint · 06-12-2016 9:56pm

brocbrocach wrote: »

How about expecting that engineers take cyclists into account when building such new infrastructure? Traffic actually sways across three lanes there. Cyclists, good and bad, will be pushed into those tracks at a poor angle. If they couldn't build it with a reasonable degree of safety they shouldn't have built it.
Cyclists are a huge percentage of city-centre traffic after all, and this is an obstacle course in the middle of the busiest street in Ireland. The college green stretch is a similar deathtrap. It's not a nice theoretical problem to dismiss so smugly - people will be killed or hurt on it.

Smugly.?

Im a cyclist myself cycling decades. If you can't handle tracks then youve no business being out on the road.

irlirishkev · 06-12-2016 10:11pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

I know about crossing tracks at the correct angle, and I wasn't far off a right-angle approach.

I should have maybe used the cycle track, but I didn't like losing priority for no good reason at the entrance to the hospital. After that fall, I just went a different way home.

Yeah It's a pain in the ass, that junction. By the time you merge onto the cycle track, there's a line of cars behind you, who then pass you out, and turn left into the hospital, for which you have to stop and wait for

tomasrojo · 06-12-2016 10:51pm

listermint wrote: »

Im a cyclist myself cycling decades. If you can't handle tracks then youve no business being out on the road.

I've been cycling decades too. I've fallen a handful of times -- it's mercifully very rare -- but I've never experienced anything like the bike just being whipped out from under me. It's completely outside the usual frame of reference. It's not like sliding on gravel on ice or going into a skid. And I should say that I'm very well aware of the importance of a right-angled approach, and I got as close as I could to one, and the bike still just disappeared from under me.

A lot of these tracks, including the track outside St. James', make it pretty hard to get a right-angled approach to the track. A combination of road geometry and the impatience of following traffic can make it hard work. Edinburgh also designed streets that brought cyclists across tram tracks at severely suboptimal angles (about fifteen degrees). They're being sued a lot, and are now looking into fixes.

Weepsie · 07-12-2016 12:54am

magicbastarder wrote: »

i've a vague memory of hearing that tram tracks in toronto (a city in canada anyway i think) have rubber flanges on them which are too heavy duty for the weight of a cyclist to push out of the way. must look that one up.

There are a few systems around the world like that. Basically as you say the groove or whatever it's called has rubber that can only be pushed down by force of the team or a truck or similar.

Its too simple a solution to have here. The LUAS works from their inception have been an utter shambles considering the cost and delay and the state should be embarrassed by it all. Even when finished it'll be a crap network.

magicbastarder · 07-12-2016 1:20am

the luas - l'enfer du nordside.

brocbrocach · 07-12-2016 12:23pm

listermint wrote: »

Smugly.?

Im a cyclist myself cycling decades. If you can't handle tracks then youve no business being out on the road.

I know 5 or 6 people who had bad falls on them.
So far 1 old problem area (St James) and two new problem areas (O'Connell Bridge, College Green) have been mentioned. Nowhere else. So if you can handle every single road in Ireland but don't think those 3 places are safe you've no business out on a bike?

average_runner · 07-12-2016 1:56pm

Annie get your Run wrote: »

What a stupid place to put these warnings, I didn't even know that website existed. Putting it on the main Luas website is no use to cyclists either unless they also use the Luas! Perhaps ask cycling forums to send it out on FB or twitter or the RSA. Having said that I cross that junction every day and just slow down but I can see how easy it would be to loose grip and balance.

Feck sake, the website is advertised all over the place, on buses, on billboards etc

average_runner · 07-12-2016 1:58pm

brocbrocach wrote: »

How about expecting that engineers take cyclists into account when building such new infrastructure? Traffic actually sways across three lanes there. Cyclists, good and bad, will be pushed into those tracks at a poor angle. If they couldn't build it with a reasonable degree of safety they shouldn't have built it.
Cyclists are a huge percentage of city-centre traffic after all, and this is an obstacle course in the middle of the busiest street in Ireland. The college green stretch is a similar deathtrap. It's not a nice theoretical problem to dismiss so smugly - people will be killed or hurt on it.

I think you will find the engineers met all safety requirements when doing this project.

magicbastarder · 07-12-2016 2:01pm

Annie get your Run wrote: »

What a stupid place to put these warnings, I didn't even know that website existed. Putting it on the main Luas website is no use to cyclists either unless they also use the Luas! Perhaps ask cycling forums to send it out on FB or twitter or the RSA. Having said that I cross that junction every day and just slow down but I can see how easy it would be to loose grip and balance.

why would a cyclist need to go to a website to realise tram lines are being installed?
i suspect there's no explicit ban on cycling blindfolded, but you wouldn't get away with it for very long.

Mercian Pro · 07-12-2016 2:25pm

listermint wrote: »

If you can't handle tracks get off and walk to the other side.,thats the long and short of it. Expecting engineers to engineer their way out of all eventualities is impossible.

Personally responsibility has to take place. You see the signs you know their slippy when wet.

I know the same for circular shores on the motorbike in fact it's part of the training.

Be smart or be oblivious its your choice

listermint wrote: »

Smugly.?

Im a cyclist myself cycling decades. If you can't handle tracks then youve no business being out on the road.

If you have been cycling decades at rush hours in areas of the city where there are tram tracks, you should well know that the main danger occurs when you are forced into the tracks at a shallow angle by traffic or pedestrians. There are many situations where the glib advice of crossing the tracks at right angles is utterly impractical and would almost certainly result in a collision.

A case in point: a few years ago, having crossed Butt Bridge and heading for Gardiner Street, I was forced into the gap between the two lanes of traffic by a bus pulling out from a stop. As the bus, myself and a van outside me swung right at the end of Abbey Street, I managed to bunny jump the front wheel over the Luas track but the rear wheel dropped into the gap. Somehow I managed to stay upright (at the expense of a new wheel) but I could easily have fallen under the bus or van. From what I have seen of the new Luas line, there are quite a few corners where something similar could easily happen.

Luas Tracks - Be Careful out there

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