Formula 1 2018: General Discussion Thread

pjohnson

Just noticed Perez has joined Hulkenberg & Magnussen on 53 pts, Alonso has 50 and Ocon 49.

Also tight between Renault and Haas for best of the rest in constructors!

Jordan 199

pjohnson wrote: »

Also tight between Renault and Haas for best of the rest in constructors!

I have a feeling Haas will finish fourth.

vectra

GarIT wrote: »

I don't think so, that was a championship defining moment. If he didn't attempt to pass Max he would be giving up his chance at the WDC. If he passed Max he could have caught Bottas, got into clean air after his pitstop and maybe passed Bottas when he pit to at least finish 2nd.

He was faster than Max, Max almost passed Bottas, hanging behind Max for 10-15 laps didn't seem like a good idea to me when he needed to be making up those seconds to the front.

He took a risk and it went wrong, I wouldn't judge him for it. In qualifying it was damp, he was doing his lap a minute and a half later than everyone other than Kimi so that was excusable.

I'm glad somebody is thinking along the same lines as I am.

pjohnson wrote: »

Could Vettel not have waited until after the corner to just fly past Max?

As above post by GarIT
Every corner and every lap he got stuck behind Max would have cost him valuable seconds.
He simply had to take the chance.

GarIT

vectra wrote: »

I'm glad somebody is thinking along the same lines as I am.

Vettel said the same on the radio after the race was over. "If I didn't go for that gap and that gap was there....... might as well stay at home..... sorry for the result"

vectra

GarIT wrote: »

Vettel said the same on the radio after the race was over. "If I didn't go for that gap and that gap was there....... might as well stay at home..... sorry for the result"

In fairness he almost had Max on the corner prior to that but Max raced him hard, while knowing Vettel was much faster than him and racing for the championship.

pjohnson

Well if Seb felt he had no choice but to rush the manouver then he should shut up and accept it was his mistake rather than blaming Max.

I'd say every corner/lap behind Sirotkin/Alonso was far more damaging to his wdc hopes than just one more corner behind Max.

flazio

pjohnson wrote: »

Just noticed Perez has joined Hulkenberg & Magnussen on 53 pts, Alonso has 50 and Ocon 49.

Also tight between Renault and Haas for best of the rest in constructors!

If Force India kept their Sahara points they'd be 10 points clear of Renault with 102 points.

Cookie_Monster

GarIT wrote: »

Vettel said the same on the radio after the race was over. "If I didn't go for that gap and that gap was there....... might as well stay at home..... sorry for the result"

maybe he's more suited to touring cars with that attitude...
there's going for a clear gap and then there's going for half a gap and hoping you get lucky... In F1 you can't pull off the later as the cars are made of glass carbon fibre.

recyclebin

OSI wrote: »

I always love posting this graph:

The overtaking was much lower but reliability was also much lower so making the chequered flag was not always guaranteed which added to the excitement. You also had bigger crashes off the start line. Now most passes are DRS enabled or you will have one of the big three teams starting down the grid and breezing past the field to make top 6.

ayux4rj6zql2ph

recyclebin wrote: »

The overtaking was much lower but reliability was also much lower so making the chequered flag was not always guaranteed which added to the excitement. You also had bigger crashes off the start line. Now most passes are DRS enabled or you will have one of the big three teams starting down the grid and breezing past the field to make top 6.

I'd rather have no DRS & reliability at the bottom of the barrel, it is incredibly boring again to watch F1, now more than at any other time in my life, 2000-2004 seasons have nothing on what we've seen since 2014 to date.

eviltimeban

Addyson Gray Glue wrote: »

I'd rather have no DRS & reliability at the bottom of the barrel, it is incredibly boring again to watch F1, now more than at any other time in my life, 2000-2004 seasons have nothing on what we've seen since 2014 to date.

I'd agree with that, I sort of checked out of this season about halfway through, when it became apparent that Alonso wasn't going to do well again, and while it looked like there might be a good Hamilton / Vettel fight, there just wasn't enough at stake or intrigue. Formula One by committee.

Seriously, once Alonso is gone and Kimi not far behind, who's left? F1 is missing characters and real rivals. At least Hamilton / Rosberg had that simmering under the surface, and that translated to tension on the track. Verstappen is good but he needs to calm down a bit, Dani Ric too but he won't be up to much next year in Renault.

The likes of Ocon, LeClerc, etc, I don't know enough about them to be interested in them.

donspeekinglesh

Addyson Gray Glue wrote: »

I'd rather have no DRS & reliability at the bottom of the barrel, it is incredibly boring again to watch F1, now more than at any other time in my life, 2000-2004 seasons have nothing on what we've seen since 2014 to date.

Same, I've only watched a 3/4 races a season since 2014.

H3llR4iser

recyclebin wrote: »

The overtaking was much lower but reliability was also much lower so making the chequered flag was not always guaranteed which added to the excitement. You also had bigger crashes off the start line. Now most passes are DRS enabled or you will have one of the big three teams starting down the grid and breezing past the field to make top 6.

Faster drivers used to get stuck behind slower cars that went like rockets on the straights because they ran little wing, with no hope of overtaking. I'll take DRS over a "Force India Train" any day.

The lower reliability certainly made things more interesting, including the fact that 30 years ago the driver could make a marked difference in these regards (comparing Prost's techincal DNFs with his peers of the time helps understanding why he was called "The Professor", for example). Not sure about the crashes, tbh, wouldn't call these "exciting".

What's amiss is the fact that cars now perform within very strict limits and parameters - it's very rare for somebody to be competitive on a single track and woeful anywhere else or vice vers, bar oddities (e.g. Williams in Barcelona 2012). I can't see how that can be mitigated 'though...banning computers in car design and setup? A "tiny bit" unrealistic, I'd say...

GarIT

Something major that I think would help the sport would be to have more race starts. Abandon the idea of a safety car, if there is an issue the cars should line up on the grid in their current positions to wait for the race to be restarted with a normal lights out start once the issue is cleared. Starting or restarting behind the safety car is complete bull****.

Or alternatively stop the cars where they are on track, and let them restart from wherever they stopped.

vectra

GarIT wrote: »

Something major that I think would help the sport would be to have more race starts. Abandon the idea of a safety car, if there is an issue the cars should line up on the grid in their current positions to wait for the race to be restarted with a normal lights out start once the issue is cleared. Starting or restarting behind the safety car is complete bull****.

Or alternatively stop the cars where they are on track, and let them restart from wherever they stopped.

Did they not look into this recently?
I never heard the outcome?
But it would be a fantastic idea.
Except for the possibility of a few crashers in front of the good guys.
There could be lots of restarts for a while :pac:

GarIT

vectra wrote: »

Did they not look into this recently?
I never heard the outcome?
But it would be a fantastic idea.
Except for the possibility of a few crashers in front of the good guys.
There could be lots of restarts for a while :pac:

They said they were doing away with starting behind the safety car after rain. If there is heavy rain before the start of a race they will do some laps behind the safety car until the track is dry. Then they will start on the grid with the lights.

I'd kill to see 5+ race starts in a single race. Crash on lap 1 means they have to try the start again on lap 2, and again on lap 3, then around the pitstops another start to mix it up and then one last start a few laps before the end for a sprint to the line.

vectra

GarIT wrote: »

They said they were doing away with starting behind the safety car after rain. If there is heavy rain before the start of a race they will do some laps behind the safety car until the track is dry. Then they will start on the grid with the lights.

I'd kill to see 5+ race starts in a single race. Crash on lap 1 means they have to try the start again on lap 2, and again on lap 3, then around the pitstops another start to mix it up and then one last start a few laps before the end for a sprint to the line.

That would be class alright
Would be a bit like Mario Kart with Max i'd imagine :pac:

g1983d

OSI wrote: »

I always love posting this graph:

Does it account for on track overtakes only or overtake in the pits via strategy?

AMKC

eviltimeban wrote: »

I'd agree with that, I sort of checked out of this season about halfway through, when it became apparent that Alonso wasn't going to do well again, and while it looked like there might be a good Hamilton / Vettel fight, there just wasn't enough at stake or intrigue. Formula One by committee.

Seriously, once Alonso is gone and Kimi not far behind, who's left? F1 is missing characters and real rivals. At least Hamilton / Rosberg had that simmering under the surface, and that translated to tension on the track. Verstappen is good but he needs to calm down a bit, Dani Ric too but he won't be up to much next year in Renault.

The likes of Ocon, LeClerc, etc, I don't know enough about them to be interested in them.

I agree all the good characters and teams are nearly gone from F1. Sure Renault are there and Mclaren is there but they are not the teams they were 10-15 years ago. Even the Ferrari team has changed and are not great either. Sauber do seem to be improving a lot do so there is some hope there.They were both far more competitive teams then.
I do think next year might be a better year than this year but I will not be watching live as its Sky only and will only watch the highlights if I hear it was good.

Harika

eviltimeban wrote: »

Seriously, once Alonso is gone and Kimi not far behind, who's left? F1 is missing characters and real rivals. At least Hamilton / Rosberg had that simmering under the surface, and that translated to tension on the track. Verstappen is good but he needs to calm down a bit, Dani Ric too but he won't be up to much next year in Renault.

The likes of Ocon, LeClerc, etc, I don't know enough about them to be interested in them.

We are in the midst of a generation break, from Alonso, Kimi to new ones. 14 years ago a F1 year book was called "The young wild ones" as Kimi, Alonso, Montoya emerged as serious contenders to Schumacher. Häkkinnen,Hill had already retired, Villeneuve disappeared from the front. It is the same thing now Alonso, Kimi are disappearing and will be followed by Hamilton and Vettel in some years. Verstappen is atm the only young front runner, but next year we get Leclerc in a Ferrari and Gasly at RedBull. Norris, Russell and Ocon are setting up in the background.
If you go further back. Early mid 90s. Piquet, Prost, Senna and Mansell left F1 and were replaced by Schumacher/Häkkinnen/Hill. Alesi showed talent like Rubens, Frentzen, Wendlinger and Irvine.

ayux4rj6zql2ph

Harika wrote: »

We are in the midst of a generation break, from Alonso, Kimi to new ones. 14 years ago a F1 year book was called "The young wild ones" as Kimi, Alonso, Montoya emerged as serious contenders to Schumacher. Häkkinnen,Hill had already retired, Villeneuve disappeared from the front. It is the same thing now Alonso, Kimi are disappearing and will be followed by Hamilton and Vettel in some years. Verstappen is atm the only young front runner, but next year we get Leclerc in a Ferrari and Gasly at RedBull. Norris, Russell and Ocon are setting up in the background.
If you go further back. Early mid 90s. Piquet, Prost, Senna and Mansell left F1 and were replaced by Schumacher/Häkkinnen/Hill. Alesi showed talent like Rubens, Frentzen, Wendlinger and Irvine.

Alesi had the skill but made a suicidal career choice when he chose Ferrari over Williams. Wendlinger would have been a contender for the title but possibly not a winner only for his crash which he was never the same driver after, Peter Sauber even gave him more than one chance to regain his old form.

For Alesi, when I think of all the victories he missed out on in one way or another that I can think of off hand.

Belgium 1994
Italy 1994
Nürburgring 1995
Japan 1995
Italy 1997
I reckon he could have possibly had the Jordan's in Belgium 1998 had he pushed them harder.

oceanman

Addyson Gray Glue wrote: »

Alesi had the skill but made a suicidal career choice when he chose Ferrari over Williams. Wendlinger would have been a contender for the title but possibly not a winner only for his crash which he was never the same driver after, Peter Sauber even gave him more than one chance to regain his old form.

For Alesi, when I think of all the victories he missed out on in one way or another that I can think of off hand.

Belgium 1994
Italy 1994
Nürburgring 1995
Japan 1995
Italy 1997
I reckon he could have possibly had the Jordan's in Belgium 1998 had he pushed them harder.

very true, and rubens was ok as a number two driver but never had it in him to be a world champion.

ayux4rj6zql2ph

oceanman wrote: »

very true, and rubens was ok as a number two driver but never had it in him to be a world champion.

You're spot on there, I think with Brawn, where it was his only realistic chance, I get the impression that once the rest of the field were catching up on them in 2009 the team put their weight behind Button, they were 1 & 2 in the championship for most of the season until Vettel eventually finished ahead of Barrichello in second.

Harika

oceanman wrote: »

very true, and rubens was ok as a number two driver but never had it in him to be a world champion.

Rubens was already verbally agreed by Ferrari for 1996 instead of Irvine to drive next to Schumacher, only for his father/manager to leave a plane in Brazil with a Ferrari cap on him. That photo caused Ferrari to sign Eddie over him.

ayux4rj6zql2ph

Harika wrote: »

Rubens was already verbally agreed by Ferrari for 1996 instead of Irvine to drive next to Schumacher, only for his father/manager to leave a plane in Brazil with a Ferrari cap on him. That photo caused Ferrari to sign Eddie over him.

Irvine was bought out of the contract with Jordan if I remember correctly.

H3llR4iser

Addyson Gray Glue wrote: »

Alesi had the skill but made a suicidal career choice when he chose Ferrari over Williams. Wendlinger would have been a contender for the title but possibly not a winner only for his crash which he was never the same driver after, Peter Sauber even gave him more than one chance to regain his old form.

For Alesi, when I think of all the victories he missed out on in one way or another that I can think of off hand.

Belgium 1994
Italy 1994
Nürburgring 1995
Japan 1995
Italy 1997
I reckon he could have possibly had the Jordan's in Belgium 1998 had he pushed them harder.

You can add to the list:

Belgium 1991
Belgium 1995 (second year in a row retiring from the lead at Spa)
Silverstone 1995 (challenging for the lead, had to fall back due to an oil leak)
Italy 1995
Monaco 1996 (one of only 2 technical issues that year - the race that eventually saw 4 finishers)

It's amazing to think someone like Herbert won three races without ever being actually able to mount a race lead challenge even once in his career, while Alesi only got one win (ironically inheriting it due to a technical issue on Schumacher's car).

In hindsight, Jean would most likely have become WDC had he signed for Williams instead of Ferrari - at the very least he would have given Mansell a run for his money much more than Patrese did the following two years. At the time, however (mid 1990 season) it was a matter of head as well as hearth - Ferrari were leading the championship with Prost, Williams were getting the odd race win when both Ferraris and McLarens ran into trouble...who could have imagined that it was the beginning of a 3 seasons winless spell for Ferrari.

Curiosity: for some unfathomable reason, Alesi was top-of-the-notch on balls-out-to-the-wind track like Monaco, Spa and Monza...but absolutely rubbish around the Hungaroring and especially Jerez, his true nemesis!

ayux4rj6zql2ph

H3llR4iser wrote: »

You can add to the list:

Belgium 1991
Belgium 1995 (second year in a row retiring from the lead at Spa)
Silverstone 1995 (challenging for the lead, had to fall back due to an oil leak)
Italy 1995
Monaco 1996 (one of only 2 technical issues that year - the race that eventually saw 4 finishers)

It's amazing to think someone like Herbert won three races without ever being actually able to mount a race lead challenge even once in his career, while Alesi only got one win (ironically inheriting it due to a technical issue on Schumacher's car).

In hindsight, Jean would most likely have become WDC had he signed for Williams instead of Ferrari - at the very least he would have given Mansell a run for his money much more than Patrese did the following two years. At the time, however (mid 1990 season) it was a matter of head as well as hearth - Ferrari were leading the championship with Prost, Williams were getting the odd race win when both Ferraris and McLarens ran into trouble...who could have imagined that it was the beginning of a 3 seasons winless spell for Ferrari.

Curiosity: for some unfathomable reason, Alesi was top-of-the-notch on balls-out-to-the-wind track like Monaco, Spa and Monza...but absolutely rubbish around the Hungaroring and especially Jerez, his true nemesis!

I think the prospect of driving for a team as big as Ferrari with the most successful French F1 racing driver of all time as your team mate swayed him a bit.

Patrese I don't remember at all other than what I see on google.

I always rated Alesi much higher than Herbert and while he wasn't able to hold off Schumacher in a straight fight on track at least Jean was good enough to be up there fighting with him, John Paul on the other hand was utterly useless, the victories aside, he is most well known for Barcelona 1995, not for the Benetton 1-2 but for running away with the jack after his stop.

He had a big accident at the Hungaroring in practice in 1999 now that you mention it.

Jerez was a strange circuit. is it any wonder we haven't seen it on the race calendar in 21 years.

H3llR4iser

Addyson Gray Glue wrote: »

I think the prospect of driving for a team as big as Ferrari with the most successful French F1 racing driver of all time as your team mate swayed him a bit.

Patrese I don't remember at all other than what I see on google.

I always rated Alesi much higher than Herbert and while he wasn't able to hold off Schumacher in a straight fight on track at least Jean was good enough to be up there fighting with him, John Paul on the other hand was utterly useless, the victories aside, he is most well known for Barcelona 1995, not for the Benetton 1-2 but for running away with the jack after his stop.

He had a big accident at the Hungaroring in practice in 1999 now that you mention it.

Jerez was a strange circuit. is it any wonder we haven't seen it on the race calendar in 21 years.

He actually crashed multiple times at the Hungaroring - I remember a big one in 1995 and if memory doesn't fail me, yet another one 1992 or 93; Jerez was indeed a strange track, more thought for bikes than cars, yet not much stranger than some of the absolute abominations we have on the calendar today.

The fact remain - for some odd reason, Jean was totally rubbish on these two tracks

g1983d

Addyson Gray Glue wrote: »

Irvine was bought out of the contract with Jordan if I remember correctly.

Jordan made a nice wedge out if that deal

LollipopJimmy

I just discovered a YouTube series called 'drinks with Eddie Irvine' it's pretty funny