Disposable Income Gone

Rubberchikken

City rental and purchase prices are crazy. I realise there are cheaper accommodation options outside these areas but probably inconvenient to most.
It's not 'scavenging' to shop in Aldi or Lidl.i don't buy much in them but what I get is fine. Lots of people do a weekly shop there and don't look bad for it.

There's always been rich. No shame in it. If people want disposable income maybe they need to spend less on their type of car. Insisting on a new one on credit isn't clever. Still wasting money on guy rot coffee from garages isn't clever. I could go on but I've work to get to. Allows me my disposable income.

DivingDuck

Alaia Incalculable Butcher wrote: »

I don't recognise this picture of people hemorrhaging money on lunches, coffee, the latest iphone and nights out at all. Everyone around me is living at home or housesharing in their 30s, afraid to turn on the heat, eating last night's dinner for lunch and nights out are a rarity. I might know one person who gets away for a week in any given year, cars are few and far between and ten years old. The sharp decline in disposable income is blatantly obvious the past 5-7 years.

The three "most broke" people I know are constantly buying crap. Online, offline, everywhere. Clothes, convenience food, nights out, convenience travel, beauty products, runners, novelty t-shirts, tech accessories— different things each. One person's living with family, the other two with a roommate.

None of it is expensive— every item would be sub €50, a lot of it under €20. But just €50 a week on rubbish is €2,600 a year. They constantly complain about how they have "no money" and they are "so poor" but all of these purchases are 1) not essential, and 2) poorly budgeted/planned. They don't seek deals, they don't consider alternatives, they just buy everything they see that they want if the money is available to them in that moment.

Are these folks entitled to do that? Absolutely, it's their cash— but the problem isn't lack of money, it's lack of impulse control.

Maybe there is less disposable income these days, but there has also been a huge shift away from saving/responsible purchasing and towards regularly impulse buying cheap rubbish for a quick serotonin hit.

mdmix

DivingDuck wrote: »

The three "most broke" people I know are constantly buying crap. Online, offline, everywhere. Clothes, convenience food, nights out, convenience travel, beauty products, runners, novelty t-shirts, tech accessories— different things each. One person's living with family, the other two with a roommate.

None of it is expensive— every item would be sub €50, a lot of it under €20. But just €50 a week on rubbish is €2,600 a year.

i get what your saying. they should save that money instead, and in just 10 short years they could have enough for half the deposit for a mortgage! wouldn't be enough for one of those "affordable houses" that Leo was telling us about, maybe something in Leitrim though.

deathtocaptcha

Rubberchikken wrote: »

City rental and purchase prices are crazy. I realise there are cheaper accommodation options outside these areas but probably inconvenient to most.
It's not 'scavenging' to shop in Aldi or Lidl.i don't buy much in them but what I get is fine. Lots of people do a weekly shop there and don't look bad for it.

There's always been rich. No shame in it. If people want disposable income maybe they need to spend less on their type of car. Insisting on a new one on credit isn't clever. Still wasting money on guy rot coffee from garages isn't clever. I could go on but I've work to get to. Allows me my disposable income.

In general I agree with the 'stop whinging, be frugal and don't borrow money to buy shiny things' philosophy but there's only so far that goes...

Not buying a cup of coffee every day isn't going to magically turn you in to a millionaire yet it's the sort of exaggerated message that is sent out by finance experts.

The reality is if you're struggling to gather a deposit on a house and have reached your peak in terms of earning potential, then there's not much you can do. All you can try to do is live within your means and spend wisely, saving where possible - but for a lot of people even doing that won't result in them ever owning a home so we shouldn't give them false hope by saying that if you make cutbacks and adjust your lifestyle you'll suddenly be able to buy a house and live a lifestyle you always wanted in a few years.

Most people earn under €30k/year yet the average 3 bed semi in Dublin is €400k... they'll get a mortgage for €105k assuming they have a €40k deposit. Buying a cheaper car, quitting coffee, making your own lunch etc... is all well and good but let's face it, it isn't going to result in you saving €255k needed to buy your own home...

Shenshen

server down wrote: »

The other argument that bugs me is the 50” telly. I had a CRT until a month ago but I bought a 49” TV with a 6 year guarantee for 460. That’s 6€ a month if I get rid after the guarantee runs out.



There’s a kernel of truth there, with everybody looking for a deal and buying on amazon etc there’s less money flowing around.

That is exactly what I'm talking about. We get more and more consumer goods for less and less money.
Someone pointed out earlier that in the 60s, people on average spent around 20% of their income on food. Today, that's come down to less than 6% (figures are from the US, but the trend is the same throughout the Western world).
And one of the reasons we're spending less is because labour costs are being squeezed dramatically. The electronic goods are being produced for a pitance in Asia, the fruit and veg are harvested by migrant workers, you name it.

I think it's worth considering that it's our very own spending habits that contribute significantly to the much-quoted wage-squeeze and race to the bottom.

There is a lot of poor impulse control behind some peoples self imposed poverty. I knew someone who had the same job I had, he was full time and it was his proper job, I was part time and it was a student job. He spent every penny as soon as his pay came in, on stupid impulse buys that the novelty wore off almost immediately, take-out and eating out ever meal, nights out where he'd subsidise his unemployed friends. He never had a penny and most bizarrely, since it was staring him in the face, he couldn't figure out why. As far as he was concerned everyone lived like he did.

He lived at home and didn't drive, so he was never going to starve or be homeless, he just hadn't a clue how to keep track of his spending.

On part time hours I paid all my bills, ran a car, and was able to save towards fees and expenses, but I was aware of where every single penny went. I didn't starve or freeze either, I had a pretty nice lifestyle compared to most because I spent it where it mattered.

ToddyDoody

hurler32 wrote: »

seeing as young people are only paid enough to exist, scavanging in Aldi-Lidl etc to make ends meet ??

The rich business owners- Bosses- Shareholders aren't contend to be Millionaires anymore they want to be Billionaires , hence those at the Bottom are a growing body of people just about existing??

The key to having no money is to just do nothing. Don't even leave the house.

wingsof daun

Dohnjoe wrote: »

You have better rights, equality, infrastructure, healthcare, education, job choice/options/mobility, better quality goods/services, transport, safety than previous generations

If you are female you have "better" rights, not males. Again women only benefited from so-called equality, or so it seems, have they really? They r expected to enter the workforce like men now to make them independent but they aren't any happier, actually many less happy. Health system joke in Ireland. There may be more variety and higher quality goods but that is creating a stress on our environment carrying them overseas. Also, too much reliance on air travel and car and we wonder why we have global warming?

r93kaey5p2izun

DivingDuck wrote: »

The three "most broke" people I know are constantly buying crap. Online, offline, everywhere. Clothes, convenience food, nights out, convenience travel, beauty products, runners, novelty t-shirts, tech accessories— different things each. One person's living with family, the other two with a roommate.

None of it is expensive— every item would be sub €50, a lot of it under €20. But just €50 a week on rubbish is €2,600 a year. They constantly complain about how they have "no money" and they are "so poor" but all of these purchases are 1) not essential, and 2) poorly budgeted/planned. They don't seek deals, they don't consider alternatives, they just buy everything they see that they want if the money is available to them in that moment.

Are these folks entitled to do that? Absolutely, it's their cash— but the problem isn't lack of money, it's lack of impulse control.

Maybe there is less disposable income these days, but there has also been a huge shift away from saving/responsible purchasing and towards regularly impulse buying cheap rubbish for a quick serotonin hit.

No this is not the case with people I know. Every penny is saved in the desperate hope of ever having their own home. People are literally sitting at home with nothing but Netflix for years. No nights out, no holidays, no shopping. Even days out have to be carefully considered with a trip out to Dun Laoghaire costing over €8 on a Leap card. This is normal life in my circle.

Lia_lia

McGaggs wrote: »

Ah come on now, people using travel agents? Pull the other one.

Well, yes. I do think it's a good example. You can (usually) make substantial savings booking flights and accommodation separately online instead of going to a travel agents and getting them to do it for you.

DivingDuck

mdmix wrote: »

i get what your saying. they should save that money instead, and in just 10 short years they could have enough for half the deposit for a mortgage! wouldn't be enough for one of those "affordable houses" that Leo was telling us about, maybe something in Leitrim though.

You could also invest it, or go on a nice holiday you'd actually remember and enjoy instead of just having a piece of rubbish you have to toss out in six months, or you could look into starting your own business, or spend it on fewer things of higher quality, or rent somewhere nicer, or spend it on courses to improve your career prospects and earning power. Not everything has to be about housing. €50 a week is the thin end of the wedge; it's often more, but that it would always be at least that, so that's at least two and a half grand a year. I don't know about you, but to me that's a decent amount of money.

There seems to be some kind of thinking along the lines of "I'll never be able to afford a house of my own where I want to live, so I'll just waste all my money on crap because it'll make me feel good for an hour" from some people. Everyone has the right to spend their money on what they want, but if you spend your money on ill-considered impulse buys, it's hard to take your financial complaints seriously.

mdmix

Shenshen wrote: »

That is exactly what I'm talking about. We get more and more consumer goods for less and less money.
Someone pointed out earlier that in the 60s, people on average spent around 20% of their income on food. Today, that's come down to less than 6% (figures are from the US, but the trend is the same throughout the Western world).
And one of the reasons we're spending less is because labour costs are being squeezed dramatically. The electronic goods are being produced for a pitance in Asia, the fruit and veg are harvested by migrant workers, you name it.

I think it's worth considering that it's our very own spending habits that contribute significantly to the much-quoted wage-squeeze and race to the bottom.

electronic goods are assembled for pittance in aisia. the parts used are made by skilled workers on decent wages in europe. no-one will spend more if they have the option of spending less for similar quality, so taking personal responsibility isn't going to change anything. this is something government to legislate for.

Lia_lia

Alaia Incalculable Butcher wrote: »

No this is not the case with people I know. Every penny is saved in the desperate hope of ever having their own home. People are literally sitting at home with nothing but Netflix for years. No nights out, no holidays, no shopping. Even days out have to be carefully considered with a trip out to Dun Laoghaire costing over €8 on a Leap card. This is normal life in my circle.

This just goes to show how expensive homes are in Dublin compared to other parts of the country. I live in Cork and could buy a house right now (on a mortgage of course) if I wanted. However I would rather wait a while and have more save to pay a larger deposit, plus our rent is relatively low and we are in no rush. Dublin rent and house prices are mental and I really feel for young people up there.

DivingDuck

Alaia Incalculable Butcher wrote: »

No this is not the case with people I know. Every penny is saved in the desperate hope of ever having their own home. People are literally sitting at home with nothing but Netflix for years. No nights out, no holidays, no shopping. Even days out have to be carefully considered with a trip out to Dun Laoghaire costing over €8 on a Leap card. This is normal life in my circle.

I'm not saying there aren't people out there who are genuinely badly off. There are, and always have been, and always will be.

But equally, there are a lot of people who could live differently and structure their spending differently, but choose not to.

Shenshen

Candie wrote: »

There is a lot of poor impulse control behind some peoples self imposed poverty. I knew someone who had the same job I had, he was full time and it was his proper job, I was part time and it was a student job. He spent every penny as soon as his pay came in, on stupid impulse buys that the novelty wore off almost immediately, take-out and eating out ever meal, nights out where he'd subsidise his unemployed friends. He never had a penny and most bizarrely, since it was staring him in the face, he couldn't figure out why. As far as he was concerned everyone lived like he did.

He lived at home and didn't drive, so he was never going to starve or be homeless, he just hadn't a clue how to keep track of his spending.

On part time hours I paid all my bills, ran a car, and was able to save towards fees and expenses, but I was aware of where every single penny went. I didn't starve or freeze either, I had a pretty nice lifestyle compared to most because I spent it where it mattered.

I know it's anecdotal, but I've had a very similar experience. I had started a new job, and one of my colleagues kept telling everyone how poor she was, how all her money was gone the moment she got paid every months, etc.
Now, she had been on the job a few years already, I had only started. It's fair to assume she earned at least what I did, probably actually more.
She shared an apartment with a friend, didn't drive, and her dad used to give her money towards the end of the month to "make ends meet".
At the same time, my husband was out of work, so we were single income. I paid the mortgage, all bills, health insurance and vet's bills (4 cats, it does add up). And still managed to save around 200 - 300 each month.

I have no idea what exactly she'd be spending her money on, and I wouldn't want to speculate. But discretionary income really, really depends on how you manage it, in my experience.

Stheno

deathtocaptcha wrote: »

Most people earn under €30k/year yet the average 3 bed semi in Dublin is €400k... they'll get a mortgage for €105k assuming they have a €40k deposit. Buying a cheaper car, quitting coffee, making your own lunch etc... is all well and good but let's face it, it isn't going to result in you saving €255k needed to buy your own home...

The average industrial wage is approx. 37k so a couple on that would qualify for a mortgage of 260 with a deposit of 26k if they were first time buyers

That's a total of 286k there are properties in Dublin for that particularly apartments

DivingDuck

Stheno wrote: »

The average industrial wage is approx. 37k so a couple on that would qualify for a mortgage of 260 with a deposit of 26k if they were first time buyers

That's a total of 286k there are properties in Dublin for that particularly apartments

Is that average nationwide, or for Dublin specifically?

Shenshen

mdmix wrote: »

electronic goods are assembled for pittance in aisia. the parts used are made by skilled workers on decent wages in europe. no-one will spend more if they have the option of spending less for similar quality, so taking personal responsibility isn't going to change anything. this is something government to legislate for.

You want the government force you to spend more money? That's an interesting take on the subject.

KevinOD88

hurler32 wrote: »

...it seems younger people starting out in Work have little to no disposable income.

And yet in Dublin from Thursday evening onwards, the city center is jammed with these 25's / 30's in restaurants, bars, shops, cafes. Perhaps they have no disposable income left once they have blown it all away. I remember that during the lower point of the crash, plenty of shops closed down, in the last 3 years I have seen plenty of new businesses opening. Surely they need people with income to dispose of. Last example, people pay 15 quids an hour to pet cats in a "cat cafe" in Smithfield...

Stheno

DivingDuck wrote: »

Is that average nationwide, or for Dublin specifically?

http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/elca/earningsandlabourcostsannualdata2016/

Nationally

36,919 last year

r93kaey5p2izun

DivingDuck wrote:

I'm not saying there aren't people out there who are genuinely badly off. There are, and always have been, and always will be.

But equally, there are a lot of people who could live differently and structure their spending differently, but choose not to.

These are professionals in their mid to late 30s. I honestly don't know anyone living as you describe. I'm not saying there aren't people out there who aren't spendthrifts with a budgeting problem but equally there are a lot of people living extremely frugally to try secure accommodation for their future.

Stheno

Alaia Incalculable Butcher wrote: »

These are professionals in their mid to late 30s. I honestly don't know anyone living as you describe. I'm not saying there aren't people out there who aren't spendthrifts with a budgeting problem but equally there are a lot of people living extremely frugally to try secure accommodation for their future.

Are they single or couples? And are they being realistic in their expectations as to what they can afford?

DivingDuck

Alaia Incalculable Butcher wrote: »

These are professionals in their mid to late 30s. I honestly don't know anyone living as you describe. I'm not saying there aren't people out there who aren't spendthrifts with a budgeting problem but equally there are a lot of people living extremely frugally to try secure accommodation for their future.

Of the three people I was talking about, one is early 20s, living with a flatmate, working in a warehouse. One is mid 30s, unemployed, and living at home. One is early 30s, only recently joined the workforce due to remaining in academia for a long time, and living with a flatmate.

None of these people have flash jobs, but they're putting forth zero consideration for their future requirements. It sounds like your friends are being mindful of their futures instead. Different people, different values. We are all entitled to make our choices.

But like in Shenshen and Candie's stories, some are able to make ends meet on the same budgets as others who find themselves struggling. We've all experienced that. Does it depend on what people consider "essential", or do you think your friends are just on very low wages?

r93kaey5p2izun

Stheno wrote: »

Are they single or couples? And are they being realistic in their expectations as to what they can afford?

They are single and I think they're realistic. What's currently affordable is not suitable for medium to long term so it would seem foolish to go down the "getting your foot on the ladder and trade up later" route if sharing a kippy house in a dodgy area with strangers and risk being turfed out at the drop of a hat so a landlord can "use it for family" is preferable to what's on offer.

hurler32

KevinOD88 wrote: »

And yet in Dublin from Thursday evening onwards, the city center is jammed with these 25's / 30's in restaurants, bars, shops, cafes. Perhaps they have no disposable income left once they have blown it all away. I remember that during the lower point of the crash, plenty of shops closed down, in the last 3 years I have seen plenty of new businesses opening. Surely they need people with income to dispose of. Last example, people pay 15 quids an hour to pet cats in a "cat cafe" in Smithfield...

Yes there are a share of younger people working in facebook-google-ESB with well paid jobs in Dublin but there's much more scurrying home with their few cans from Lidl...
A lot of focus on the argument from a Dublin perspective but walk around provincial towns and their dead in the evening and night as the young eat their frozen burgers etc from Lidl at home afraid to turn on the heating as their lives pass them bye ...
Meanwhile employers & bosses like Denis O brien , Michael O Leary , JP etc become richer by the minute ...

Stheno

Alaia Incalculable Butcher wrote: »

They are single and I think they're realistic. What's currently affordable is not suitable for medium to long term so it would seem foolish to go down the "getting your foot on the ladder and trade up later" route if sharing a kippy house in a dodgy area with strangers and risk being turfed out at the drop of a hat so a landlord can "use it for family" is preferable to what's on offer.

If they are single and hoping to buy in Dublin I think I read recently they would need to be earning 70k to afford to qualify for a mortgage to buy in Dublin

r93kaey5p2izun

DivingDuck wrote: »

Of the three people I was talking about, one is early 20s, living with a flatmate, working in a warehouse. One is mid 30s, unemployed, and living at home. One is early 30s, only recently joined the workforce due to remaining in academia for a long time, and living with a flatmate.

None of these people have flash jobs, but they're putting forth zero consideration for their future requirements. It sounds like your friends are being mindful of their futures instead. Different people, different values. We are all entitled to make our choices.

But like in Shenshen and Candie's stories, some are able to make ends meet on the same budgets as others who find themselves struggling. We've all experienced that. Does it depend on what people consider "essential", or do you think your friends are just on very low wages?

They're on average to slightly above average wages. They are managing fine to budget. But if they don't want to houseshare in their 60s then severe cutbacks to all non essential spending and saving everything is the only option. It just doesn't seem possible for saving to keep pace with price increases though. What was meant to be 3-5 years of pain is now nearing a decade.

r93kaey5p2izun

Stheno wrote: »

If they are single and hoping to buy in Dublin I think I read recently they would need to be earning 70k to afford to qualify for a mortgage to buy in Dublin

Buying in Dublin is not on their radar as it's simply unobtainable. Neighbouring counties with reasonable public transport is the dream.

Stheno

Alaia Incalculable Butcher wrote: »

Buying in Dublin is nkt on tbeir radar as it's simply unobtainable. Neighbouring counties with reasonable public transport is the dream.

Bad news is that the Midlands is rising even faster than Dublin.

I've a house there that is being sold next year and it was valued recently for 30% more than I expected

Five years ago it would have gone for 125k now it's more than double that

ToddyDoody

KevinOD88 wrote: »

Last example, people pay 15 quids an hour to pet cats in a "cat cafe" in Smithfield...

Fools! I know people who'll bring them to your door.

They'll also shag you but officially they're providing a cat-related service.