Disposable Income Gone

Pithythefool

Deleted User wrote: »

I was thinking about Chinese & Indian factory workers who are earning an income for the first time ever.

I think the reality of the matter is that nobody can even somewhat accurately determine average wages or labour division across the world. Nobody!

There are very many people that don't get money at all, or its equivalent. You can also argue the PPP thing (purchasing power parity) that adjusts what a euro will buy you in different environments (like the "big mac" economy).

The problem with PPP is that it just is NOT comparable on a world scale. You can say that a Chinese person can afford a house after 10 years worth of wages, but what is not counted is the quality of the house. Or healthcare, or education etc.

But qualitatively speaking, everyone is feeding upwards in terms of production. And none of it bodes well.

Pithythefool

Pithythefool wrote: »

I think the reality of the matter is that nobody can even somewhat accurately determine average wages or labour division across the world. Nobody!

Until you've been to India or China, it's really quite difficult to imagine the sheer levels of poverty that a rather hefty portion of the world population has to live through. I've seen literally thousands of people standing in a street hoping to be picked for construction work or any other temp work that might be available, and the wages are truly tiny.

I'd agree with you than averages mean squat in these kinds of situations.

On a side note, when I entered China in 2010, I could buy a bowl of noodles with a bit of beef from a street vendor for 4-5 RMB. When I left this year, it would be difficult to find the same for 11 RMB. Cost of living has risen quite a bit even with the government trying to keep the costs down (although their 'encouragement' for people to move to the cities has had the side effect of fewer people on the farms for growing food, generally increasing the costs overall in the cities). Rents have doubled or tripled also in most city areas too, including the coffin type apartments (just room for a single bed in the room and the door doesn't open fully. Externally shared toilets too. )

The J Stands for Jay

namloc1980 wrote: »

Do you not get your cash from your bank account also?

Why would I do that?

Doltanian

Open borders and immigrant labour is entirely responsible for this, if Ireland left the EU we would be far better off to restrict the movement of people into the country. Basically the millionaire class have made a fortune and are the upper middle class, the middle class in Ireland has shrunk enormously while the working poor are now the worst off. The welfare scrounger class have better lives than the working poor and you'd want €20/hr or more to pay for a house and rear a family nowadays but companies won't pay that when some Eastern European or South American fraudulent English Language Student will work it for peanuts. Meanwhile families are split apart as people with enough cop on go to places like Australia to forge a new life because of what is happening here.

For me my solution is:

End free movement and leave the EU and negotiate free trade, Free Trade was what the EU was supposed to be about.

Scrap and cut back on benefits enormously, not Irish then no benefits, Irish and on benefits, kicked out on ass after 6 months, sink or swim, end the days of money for nothing.

End all social housing, why should the middle class and working poor killing themselves up at 5am and 6am commuting long journeys for low wages be swamped in debt to buy a house whilst those on the welfare get it for free.

Encourage highly skilled immigration from countries that speak English and share cultural and religious identity. e.g. Nurses from the Philippines. If your non-EU and not skilled then you have no business in Ireland.

What has happened is that crony capitalists control the political system and keep control of it through welfare by paying votes with crumbs from the table. What I would want is real capitalism dog eat dog with minimal state involvement on a conservative right wing basis.

Reform taxation and make business and the rich pay their share, I'm not advocating marxism but what is needed is fairness where corporate companies pay practically nothing yet the working poor pay far more proportionately. Tax avoidance and loopholes should all be closed off, cutting taxes for the small man and making the rich pay slightly more. Cutting Govt waste spending would allow for this. I could write alot more but its too late at night.

eurasian

We are a couple with no children and living in Cork in our own house. Just a few numbers of a one months average spendings:

Food 500 (no aldi or lidl, we shop in Dunnes, Tesco and MS)
Utilities (gas/electricity/rubbish) 150
Transport 100
Phone/Internet 50
Going out 200

Total a grand on average. One income. Minimum wage. Full time.
Remaining 300 go into savings account.

No, we dont buy new phones every year (my phone is 5 years old), spend very little on clothes and foreign travel and ignore Black fridays and Christmas hysterias. And we love to cook and eat at home.

The housing is the problem really.
Another problem is the lack of budgeting and managing your income. I wish we had more money coming every month but I feel it wouldn't change our habits dramatically and most of it would probably end on that regular saver.

jimmycrackcorm

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hurler32 wrote:

This post had been deleted.

Shortly after the boom collapse I heard a Tiler on the radio giving it that he couldn't make 4k a month.

Permabear wrote:

This post has been deleted.

I almost always agree with your opinions as very sensible PB, but I'm surprised you think it's beneficial that young people today are forced into massive mortgages and that you think the governed and central bank should be supporting that.

There's no reason why the state can't provide the framework that allows for cheaper housing for everyone and still allow for those who wish to pay a premium.

pilly

eurasian wrote:

Food 500 (no aldi or lidl, we shop in Dunnes, Tesco and MS) Utilities (gas/electricity/rubbish) 150 Transport 100 Phone/Internet 50 Going out 200

No mortgage?

A lack of mortgage or rent is a real deal breaker when it comes to having a sustainable lifestyle on a minimum wage.

BuboBubo

I'm in an older demographic than most of the posters on this I'm guessing (40's).

The one thing that really affected my spending power is that bloody USC.

That was money I spent on little things like magazines, coffees, 99's etc. The introduction of USC killed off a lot of small local businesses in my honest opinion.

I shop in Aldi, have a mortgage, a car, and feck all disposable income.

BillyBobBS

grahambo wrote: »

This is par for the course all over the country and indeed the world.

I'm just out of a long term relationship (had a kid and mortgage with the other person)
I ended up moving out, and I'm living back at home because I literally cannot afford to rent a place....

I'm 34 years old with a very good Job....

15 years ago I'd have been able to at least get somewhere to rent at a decent price.
It's pathetic.


There needs to be a world war to force the distribution of wealth away from the 1%'ers to the average Joe.
IE a massive destruction of wealth

Look at the US in the 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's. The quality of life they had at the time was the "American Dream", no one has that now.

As long as the 1%er's have the rest fighting over scraps and each other and the 99% can't see that nothing will change.

Until people organize and start electing politicians who actually view the good of the many over the good of the few the situation will continue to get worse.

BillyBobBS

Doltanian wrote: »

Open borders and immigrant labour is entirely responsible for this, if Ireland left the EU we would be far better off to restrict the movement of people into the country. Basically the millionaire class have made a fortune and are the upper middle class, the middle class in Ireland has shrunk enormously while the working poor are now the worst off. The welfare scrounger class have better lives than the working poor and you'd want €20/hr or more to pay for a house and rear a family nowadays but companies won't pay that when some Eastern European or South American fraudulent English Language Student will work it for peanuts. Meanwhile families are split apart as people with enough cop on go to places like Australia to forge a new life because of what is happening here.

For me my solution is:

End free movement and leave the EU and negotiate free trade, Free Trade was what the EU was supposed to be about.

Scrap and cut back on benefits enormously, not Irish then no benefits, Irish and on benefits, kicked out on ass after 6 months, sink or swim, end the days of money for nothing.

End all social housing, why should the middle class and working poor killing themselves up at 5am and 6am commuting long journeys for low wages be swamped in debt to buy a house whilst those on the welfare get it for free.

Encourage highly skilled immigration from countries that speak English and share cultural and religious identity. e.g. Nurses from the Philippines. If your non-EU and not skilled then you have no business in Ireland.

What has happened is that crony capitalists control the political system and keep control of it through welfare by paying votes with crumbs from the table. What I would want is real capitalism dog eat dog with minimal state involvement on a conservative right wing basis.

Reform taxation and make business and the rich pay their share, I'm not advocating marxism but what is needed is fairness where corporate companies pay practically nothing yet the working poor pay far more proportionately. Tax avoidance and loopholes should all be closed off, cutting taxes for the small man and making the rich pay slightly more. Cutting Govt waste spending would allow for this. I could write alot more but its too late at night.

You do realize most people who avail of social housing are working poor also and work long hours for peanuts. Any civilized society needs social housing and one of the biggest problems we have in Ireland is the lack of it.

But well done let's blame it on immigrants and people in social housing yeah they are the real problem :rolleyes:

pilly

Agreed. It was supposed to be a temporary measure and like all taxes turned permanent.

hurler32

A good example of the race to the bottom and the rich wanting to be richer ..
A factory near me on a substantial sized site employed a groundsman - landscaper about 45k pa , always had the place looking well etc .
Retired lately and now this company who are very profitable are looking for a replacement on just above minimum wage 22K per annum ...Very little interest locally but I guess they will get an Albanian or Romanian to do it ,scavenge in Lidl each week and send home 50 euro every week?
The company owners can put the 26K towards one of their racehorses and perhaps win more money ?
Paying minimum wage is the new standard whilst the rich get richer ? Be nothing in Ireland soon only foreigners in track suits with their Lidl shopping bags 😩... and of course a couple of hundred billionaires laughing at the peasants ?

BillyBobBS

hurler32 wrote: »

A good example of the race to the bottom and the rich wanting to be richer ..
A factory near me on a substantial sized site employed a groundsman - landscaper about 45k pa , always had the place looking well etc .
Retired lately and now this company who are very profitable are looking for a replacement on just above minimum wage 22K per annum ...Very little interest locally but I guess they will get an Albanian or Romanian to do it ,scavenge in Lidl each week and send home 50 euro every week?
The company owners can put the 26K towards one of their racehorses and perhaps win more money ?
Paying minimum wage is the new standard whilst the rich get richer ? Be nothing in Ireland soon only foreigners in track suits with their Lidl shopping bags ��... and of course a couple of hundred billionaires laughing at the peasants ?

Yeah it's a real race to the bottom out there but i wouldn't blame immigrants tbh i'd do the same if i where them. It's the politicians fault as they are in the back pocket of big business and IBEC. The media also play a massive role as in this country media is basically a mouthpiece for parts of the establishment. One or two big players run the show and tell us all what to think and do.

Keep voting for the same people and we will keep seeing the same results.

Allinall

hurler32 wrote: »

A good example of the race to the bottom and the rich wanting to be richer ..
A factory near me on a substantial sized site employed a groundsman - landscaper about 45k pa , always had the place looking well etc .
Retired lately and now this company who are very profitable are looking for a replacement on just above minimum wage 22K per annum ...Very little interest locally but I guess they will get an Albanian or Romanian to do it ,scavenge in Lidl each week and send home 50 euro every week?
The company owners can put the 26K towards one of their racehorses and perhaps win more money ?
Paying minimum wage is the new standard whilst the rich get richer ? Be nothing in Ireland soon only foreigners in track suits with their Lidl shopping bags 😩... and of course a couple of hundred billionaires laughing at the peasants ?

The grounds man that retired.

Where did he shop?

donegaLroad

Allinall wrote: »

The grounds man that retired.

Where did he shop?

Maybe Woodies :-)

All jokes aside though, a lot of people's disposable income have been decimated by the universal social charge, as a previous poster just mentioned.

hurler32

hurler32 wrote: »

A good example of the race to the bottom and the rich wanting to be richer ..
A factory near me on a substantial sized site employed a groundsman - landscaper about 45k pa , always had the place looking well etc .
Retired lately and now this company who are very profitable are looking for a replacement on just above minimum wage 22K per annum ...

I should let this go, but I'll bite.

How do you know the factory is profitable? The organisational ownership of the company? Is it a private or public company? etc.

Lowering the salary of the job could be down to cost-saving measures. And honestly, I don't see why lowering the salary amount after the previous employee left is an issue.

Very little interest locally but I guess they will get an Albanian or Romanian to do it ,scavenge in Lidl each week and send home 50 euro every week?

Very little interest locally, but you're bothered that an immigrant takes the work?

The company owners can put the 26K towards one of their racehorses and perhaps win more money ?

It's their money... I'm sure they can decide where to spend it. Would you be happy with posters on boards deciding where you spend yours?

Paying minimum wage is the new standard whilst the rich get richer ? Be nothing in Ireland soon only foreigners in track suits with their Lidl shopping bags ��... and of course a couple of hundred billionaires laughing at the peasants ?

Utterly Bizarre. a couple of hundred billionaires in Ireland? Exaggerating a bit, perhaps?

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

I should let this go, but I'll bite.

How do you know the factory is profitable? The organisational ownership of the company? Is it a private or public company? etc.

Lowering the salary of the job could be down to cost-saving measures. And honestly, I don't see why lowering the salary amount after the previous employee left is an issue.



Very little interest locally, but you're bothered that an immigrant takes the work?



It's their money... I'm sure they can decide where to spend it. Would you be happy with posters on boards deciding where you spend yours?



Utterly Bizarre. a couple of hundred billionaires in Ireland? Exaggerating a bit, perhaps?

As many have already stated, it's a race to the bottom, undercutting the wages of established employees, now locals who want a decent standard of living won't be able to achieve such on the wages offered. The migrant on the other hand has set his sights very low and can achieve that as they only intend to stay a short while.

Sierra Oscar

pilly wrote: »

Agreed. It was supposed to be a temporary measure and like all taxes turned permanent.

It was never really meant to be temporary in nature though. Some politicians sold it like that, but in reality it could never have been temporary. The USC essentially was just an amalgamation of the Income Levy and Health Levy, with a hike over a few years thrown in for good measure.

The Income Levy and Health Levy have been around for decades so completely abolishing the USC is pretty much impossible.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

As many have already stated, it's a race to the bottom, undercutting the wages of established employees, now locals who want a decent standard of living won't be able to achieve such on the wages offered. The migrant on the other hand has set his sights very low and can achieve that as they only intend to stay a short while.

The example given was an employee who had retired from the company, and the salary amount being advertised as being lower than what the retired employee was paid.

The retired employee was highly unlikely to have started and stayed at 45k from the beginning of his employment. He would have worked hard, been creative, gained the trust of his employer, etc and been rewarded with higher salary amounts/promotions over time. We have no idea of his contract and the terms of salary increments.

The problem with this is the expectation that a fresh applicant can replace the retired employee at the same salary without any definite proof of his worth to the company. This isn't undercutting existing employees. This is the problem with modern society. The expectation or entitlement that they should enter a job on the higher salaries without proving themselves.

Other examples in this thread show different scenarios of companies undercutting existing employees, which is a valid issue. This is different. This is expecting top salaries for the position (that the previous person worked up to) from the moment you enter the company.

For Forks Sake

hurler32 wrote: »

.
Retired lately and now this company who are very profitable are looking for a replacement on just above minimum wage 22K per annum ...Very little interest locally but I guess they will get an Albanian or Romanian to do it ,scavenge in Lidl each week and send home 50 euro every week?
?

I suspect that if you went back in time to 1960s London, Birmingham or Manchester that the locals would've been expressing very similar sentiments about Irish lads coming over looking for work on their building sites.....

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

topper75

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I feel so dirty stepping in on the govt getting a kicking, but for the sake of truth...

I think that is the central bank that imposed these borrowing restrictions?

Yes, bizarrely an Irish Central Bank still exists. Is it not independent of the govt?

I could be wrong it was a long time since I was in school learning this stuff.

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

topper75

For Forks Sake wrote: »

I suspect that if you went back in time to 1960s London, Birmingham or Manchester that the locals would've been expressing very similar sentiments about Irish lads coming over looking for work on their building sites.....

How much was Irish undercutting on price in 1960s UK, and how much was just a labour shortage that the Irish were simply making up the difference on? Because there is a distinction in terms of ultimate effect on native workers.

When the construction boom started in Ireland in the early years of the century, we also simply couldn't get the workers locally. The initial arrivals filled the shortfall. The much-maligned undercutting that drove native workers out of the game did not occur until later when demand fell back and something had to give on the supply side (2007-2010ish).

I don't think those 1960s Paddys were putting any Tommys on the dole across the pond. They were all needed.

topper75

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Excellent post- explains an awful lot really. So true.

Thing is - in human behavioural terms - there is no dialling back on such 'advances' once they are adopted. And so we have the collective whine about not being able to have cake and eat it.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

topper75

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

ha ha

Right, well, nominally then.

topper75

topper75 wrote: »

ha ha

Right, well, nominally then.

When it was first created, sure. Now? Err...