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'Travellers have a right to a home that is culturally appropriate'

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    #302
    nullzero
    Registered Users Posts: 16,485 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    ****


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    But you don't accept the findings of groups tasked to find examples of discrimination and bigotry and resort to the "no no, they really deserve it" line. We can look back on your quotes, taking out the "but I empathise" stuff...



    It's the exact same as someone referring to any ethnic group around the world that were subject to bigotry and discrimination and saying "but this lot don't deserve sympathy because they actually deserve their lot and all the groups that made findings are living in ivory towers.

    As you like the "you have some neck" phrase, you have some neck backtracking and trying to pretend you are objective in the matter when you don't like them.

    Again you are the one saying I don't like them. I know a lot of them and some I dislike and others I like. How many do you know on a personal level?

    You have a brass neck telling me how I feel about Travellers, I made a statement of fact about the reality surrounding them. I don't feel that EU or UN think tanks are above reproach, the world we live in is rife with injustice, some of which is perpetrated by those types of organizations which you blindly put your faith in.

    I have encountered you on this site previously and you were just as pretentious and condescending then.
    I would ask you to stop twisting what I have said and instead address the actual content something which you have avoided thus far, instead finding an angle to jab at the points I have made to invalidate them.

    It is worth noting that the words you put inside inverted commas(aside from me saying you have some neck) were not written by me in any of my posts. You are misrepresenting me yet again, shame on you and your pathetic behaviour.


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    #303
    B00MSTICK
    Registered Users Posts: 1,917 ✭✭✭B00MSTICK


    Looking at the OP and the author of the article quoted is anyone at all surprised? A traveller is saying they should be entitled to more? Well I never! Its like the VFI or SIMI - what do you expect!



    Unfortunately the problem Travellers have is that their culture does not lend itself to modern, civilised living.

    People can bitch and moan about travellers until the cows come home.
    "They can do A,B, C and get away with it." "They get X,Y,Z for free."
    But taking that into consideration would anyone actually like to be a traveller?

    How would you feel if you had to give up your child to a traveller family? Or if you were somehow re-born into a traveller family?
    It really does seem like a miserable existence.

    - 50% die before they are 40, 70% before they are 60.
    - Huge suicide rates
    - Major health issues due to diet/lack of education etc.
    - Very few are well educated (1% make it to college level)
    - Massive unemployment
    - Awful living conditions
    - Pressure to get involved in shady activities
    - Pressure to marry young and have a lot of children (Religion enters into too I suppose)
    - Lack of parental support/care in general
    - Distrust of authority/settled community (including doctors etc.)
    etc. etc.

    My point is - it is clear that the Travellers way of life is not pleasant for many. In fact, I really pity any child unlucky enough to be born into a traveller family.
    Is it fair to even allow it to continue?
    By this I don't mean a genocide but rather a culling of the antiquated and harmful customs that are part of traveller culture.

    It seems that if you are a traveller and want to get on in life you have to abandon a lot of your "culture" anyway.
    Recent example this college educated traveller - Now lives in an apartment, was married but got divorced, doesnt seem to have kids - certainly not the kind of life/lifestyle that comes to mind when you think of a traveller.

    Taken from an article written by a traveller:
    'The ESRI has described the conditions that most travellers live in as “intolerable”, stating that “no humane and decent society, once made aware of such circumstances, could permit them to persist.”'
    Again settled people are responsible for some part of this, but travellers themselves have to accept that a lot of it is their own doing.

    So using the above, as a "humane and decent society" should we allow the travellers current way of life to continue? How much support can we give them if their very culture is at odds with today's world and inherently causes so much hurt to their own people? Or is it simply our obligation to house them all?

    The main issue in my opinion is education.
    - They are nomadic, they move often, its not conducive to doing well in school.
    - Chances are the parents are not educated to a high level with many leaving after primary school so they get no/little support there
    - There have big families so there's little/no individual attention or help
    - Education is looked down on my some members of the community
    - They are discriminated against by both the settled and traveller community

    I think if we can somehow sort the traveller education issue out we might see them starting to have the type of opportunities and the quality of life settled people enjoy. Until they make a conscience effort to implement change (as a ethnic group as a whole ) then they will remain as they are...


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    #304
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    nullzero wrote: »
    Again you are the one saying I don't like them. I know a lot of them and some I dislike and others I like. How many do you know on a personal level?

    You have a brass neck telling me how I feel about Travellers, I made a statement of fact about the reality surrounding them. I don't feel that EU or UN think tanks are above reproach, the world we live in is rife with injustice, some of which is perpetrated by those types of organizations which you blindly put your faith in.

    I have encountered you on this site previously and you were just as pretentious and condescending then.
    I would ask you to stop twisting what I have said and instead address the actual content something which you have avoided thus far, instead finding an angle to jab at the points I have made to invalidate them.

    It is worth noting that the words you put inside inverted commas(aside from me saying you have some neck) were not written by me in any of my posts. You are misrepresenting me yet again, shame on you and your pathetic behaviour.

    Simple yes or no, do you agree with the EU description of them as the most discriminated against group of people in Europe?


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    #305
    Omackeral
    Registered Users Posts: 32,956 ✭✭✭✭Omackeral


    B00MSTICK wrote: »
    Well I never! Its like the VFI or SIMI - what do you expect!


    Ya junkie's junkie's bastard!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5zZjfjAq9I


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    #306
    Omackeral
    Registered Users Posts: 32,956 ✭✭✭✭Omackeral


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Simple yes or no, do you agree with the EU description of them as the most discriminated against group of people in Europe?

    I would have thought Roma gypsies would trump them in that department.


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    #307
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    I interact with the travelling community every day.
    Like every other community there are some absolute dickheads but in general I’m treated with respect and courtesy which I don’t always get from the settled folk who come through the door.
    There’s a huge sense of entitlement and expectation that all their needs will be met.
    But then you’ll get that from settled folk too.
    The big difference is that settled folk will leave it at 3 or 4 ankle biters.
    Double figures is still the standard for traveller families and as they continue to marry at 18/19 for the girls 20/21 for the boys this is easily achievable .
    I think if the settled public knew some of the real weekly SW payments to a huge amount of traveller families there would be outrage.


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    #308
    B00MSTICK
    Registered Users Posts: 1,917 ✭✭✭B00MSTICK


    Omackeral wrote: »
    Ya junkie's junkie's bastard!

    Poor lad must be hoarse from all the DVDs he makes


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    #309
    One_Of_Shanks
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,436 ✭✭✭One_Of_Shanks


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Simple yes or no, do you agree with the EU description of them as the most discriminated against group of people in Europe?

    Any idea where they would figure in terms of tax evaders in Europe?

    Just seeing as we're asking questions.

    Or how about where they'd figure in terms of pollutants/rubbish/begging/robberies?

    Just if we could view all tables at the same time to get an overall picture, it would be great.


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    #310
    server down
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,613 ✭✭✭server down


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Simple yes or no, do you agree with the EU description of them as the most discriminated against group of people in Europe?

    Have you got a link to that. I google that phrase and get the Roma.


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    #311
    foxatron
    Registered Users Posts: 252 ✭✭foxatron


    splinter65 wrote:
    I interact with the travelling community every day. Like every other community there are some absolute dickheads but in general I’m treated with respect and courtesy which I don’t always get from the settled folk who come through the door. There’s a huge sense of entitlement and expectation that all their needs will be met. But then you’ll get that from settled folk too. The big difference is that settled folk will leave it at 3 or 4 ankle biters. Double figures is still the standard for traveller families and as they continue to marry at 18/19 for the girls 20/21 for the boys this is easily achievable . I think if the settled public knew some of the real weekly SW payments to a huge amount of traveller families there would be outrage.

    splinter65 wrote:
    I interact with the travelling community every day. Like every other community there are some absolute dickheads but in general I’m treated with respect and courtesy which I don’t always get from the settled folk who come through the door. There’s a huge sense of entitlement and expectation that all their needs will be met. But then you’ll get that from settled folk too. The big difference is that settled folk will leave it at 3 or 4 ankle biters. Double figures is still the standard for traveller families and as they continue to marry at 18/19 for the girls 20/21 for the boys this is easily achievable . I think if the settled public knew some of the real weekly SW payments to a huge amount of traveller families there would be outrage.


    Thats exactly it though. They are getting so much for so little and i dont discriminate i hate the settled lazy fooks too. What an absolute waste of space. Id ship the whole lot to Aus, except thatd frowned upon now. To many spongers in this country with a system that allows them to do so. Sad really


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    #312
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    foxatron wrote: »
    Thats exactly it though. They are getting so much for so little and i dont discriminate i hate the settled lazy fooks too. What an absolute waste of space. Id ship the whole lot to Aus, except thatd frowned upon now. To many spongers in this country with a system that allows them to do so. Sad really

    They’re not getting anything they’re not entitled to, by and large.
    A lot of the Disabilty Allowance and Carers Allowances decisions are very questionable and are only awarded on Appeal after a lot of pressure .
    It’s morally wrong to have more children then you can afford to look after yourself.
    It’s particulaly bad for the children themselves.
    Mostly the father takes a disproportionate amount of the weekly SW income for himself and the children end up a kinda neglected .
    Obeying RCC rules and not using contraception is part of the famous “culture” but so is keeping quiet about the drunken slaps and digs.
    The competition amongst the women to have more children then your sisters is frightful.
    However I can tell you that without a shadow of a doubt that had we the benefits cap here that they have in the UK that the big families would disappear in a generation.
    Our welfare system dictates that the more kids you have the more money you will get, unlimited and for as long as you need it.
    It’s crazy.


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    #313
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,998 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    splinter65 wrote: »
    However I can tell you that without a shadow of a doubt that had we the benefits cap here that they have in the UK that the big families would disappear in a generation.

    the small amount of evidence i have come across from the uk via television and radio whenever this topic comes up, shows that the benefits cap actually has little effect in terms of cutting large families. so i wouldn't be holding out huge hope for it being effective, not for now at least.
    splinter65 wrote: »
    Our welfare system dictates that the more kids you have the more money you will get, unlimited and for as long as you need it.
    It’s crazy.

    agreed. but it's also necessary to support the children. that's the issue ultimately, the children need support regardless of our opinion on the parents decisians.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #314
    Omackeral
    Registered Users Posts: 32,956 ✭✭✭✭Omackeral


    Just wondering if you'll get back to this one EOTR...
    end of the road wrote: »
    you would be best putting that question to the gardai, minister for justice and other politicians as to why horsedrawn carriges aren't being removed from the main roads.
    if responsible drivers are breaking the law and the gardai catch them, even if it's a minor infraction, they are still breaking the law.
    Omackeral wrote: »
    Ok, let's say myself and a few concerned citizens were privy to a sulky race going down on the M7 via a message boards or chat group. Let's say we decided to film it and call the Gardai as we did so. Then imagine we handed over the evidence to the Gardai. Would you be on board with that? Or would you call that abnormal behaviour and say leave the police work to the police?

    Oh and this...
    Omackeral wrote: »
    Also, why did you thank the post saying settled people dump loads of waste on traveller sites? Asked you about 4 5 times now...


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    #315
    Omackeral
    Registered Users Posts: 32,956 ✭✭✭✭Omackeral


    splinter65 wrote: »
    I interact with the travelling community every day.
    Like every other community there are some absolute dickheads but in general I’m treated with respect and courtesy which I don’t always get from the settled folk who come through the door.

    Same, I deal with Traveller folks everyday in my line of work*. In the interest of fairness I'll be quite honest, I seldom have trouble with them at all. Most of them address me as 'sir' and are very polite and nearly always exceptionally well mannered. I actually knock a great bit of craic out of them and vice versa. They're very family orientated too in my experiences with them through my job. All in all, I find them to be grand to work around. On a person to person level, I've no issue with them.

    *
    I must point out that I work in a prison so they're not in there for being good boys.


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    #316
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    end of the road wrote: »
    the small amount of evidence i have come across from the uk via television and radio whenever this topic comes up, shows that the benefits cap actually has little effect in terms of cutting large families. so i wouldn't be holding out huge hope for it being effective, not for now at least.



    agreed. but it's also necessary to support the children. that's the issue ultimately, the children need support regardless of our opinion on the parents decisians.

    The money intended for the care of the children is mostly misspent I’m afraid, by the parents, most usually their father.
    The CWO has more or less totally stopped giving any further “emergency “ payments now, it had to stop somewhere.
    You have a traveller father sitting in a mobile home snorting line after line of cocaine while his wife waits at the reduced counter in Tescos to see what will appear for tea.
    Substance abuse is rife in traveller men but your not allowed to say that.
    It’s directly linked to their sky rocketing suicide figures.
    I know families that have SW payments approaching and exceeding €1000 per week for a period of time when they had 10 kids under 18.
    I can assure you that if they had to manage on the average industrial wage those kids would not be here.
    The benefits cap in the UK is lifted where a parent is working at least 16 hours per week.
    That won’t apply here to travelers because traveller men simply do not go to work. End of.


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    #317
    Omackeral
    Registered Users Posts: 32,956 ✭✭✭✭Omackeral


    splinter65 wrote: »
    That won’t apply here to travelers because traveller men simply do not go to work. End of the road.

    FYP


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    #318
    Omackeral
    Registered Users Posts: 32,956 ✭✭✭✭Omackeral


    Ah good old end of the road, caught you attempting to lie you little snake. See, this is what you originally posted;
    end of the road wrote: »
    police work should always be left to the police. and i never thanked the post you claimed that i thanked.

    Yes you did you liar, everyone saw it earlier when it was quoted. I'm sure joeytheparrot (and a host of others who saw the post quoted thereafter) will vouch for this in the name of honesty. So after being asked the question 5 times you decided to change your approach because you had no good reply to it. You went back and removed your thanks. You edited the above quoted post also. Stand by your convictions. Nice little edit timestamped under your post now and everything for everyone to see. 7 mins of backtracking. Whatever credibility you had is gone now. Pathetic.


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    #319
    EndaHonesty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,544 ✭✭✭EndaHonesty


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Simple yes or no, do you agree with the EU description of them as the most discriminated against group of people in Europe?

    Simple question.

    What positive things from the Irish Traveller ethnic minority are worth saving?


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    #320
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,998 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    splinter65 wrote: »
    Substance abuse is rife in traveller men but your not allowed to say that.

    according to who are you not allowed to say that? if it's not illegal to say something then you can say it if you like, nobody is going to stop you.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #321
    Omackeral
    Registered Users Posts: 32,956 ✭✭✭✭Omackeral


    Omackeral wrote: »
    Ah good old end of the road, caught you attempting to lie you little snake. See, this is what you originally posted;



    Yes you did you liar, everyone saw it earlier when it was quoted. I'm sure joeytheparrot (and a host of others who saw the post quoted thereafter) will vouch for this in the name of honesty. So after being asked the question 5 times you decided to change your approach because you had no good reply to it. You went back and removed your thanks. You edited the above quoted post also. Stand by your convictions. Nice little edit timestamped under your post now and everything for everyone to see. 7 mins of backtracking. Whatever credibility you had is gone now. Pathetic.

    Then actually goes back, deletes the post and retypes it again so people can't see your big dirty edit tattooed on your post! Unbelievably cowardly and sychophantic. You're a disgrace to debate.
    end of the road wrote: »
    according to who are you not allowed to say that? if it's not illegal to say something then you can say it if you like, nobody is going to stop you.


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    #322
    EndaHonesty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,544 ✭✭✭EndaHonesty


    end of the road wrote: »
    according to who are you not allowed to say that? if it's not illegal to say something then you can say it if you like, nobody is going to stop you.

    End of the road - genuine question: what age are you?


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    #323
    rebel456
    Registered Users Posts: 282 ✭✭rebel456


    splinter65 wrote: »
    However I can tell you that without a shadow of a doubt that had we the benefits cap here that they have in the UK that the big families would disappear in a generation.
    Our welfare system dictates that the more kids you have the more money you will get, unlimited and for as long as you need it.
    It’s crazy.

    I have a friend who inveaitgated benefits caps for the Dept of Social Protection during the time of Leo Varadkars tenure. They decided against them based on UK evidence as the UK authorities had to make so many exceptions for gypsy families. They also envisaged a high profile legal challenge on the basis of traveller rights.


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    #324
    EndaHonesty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,544 ✭✭✭EndaHonesty


    rebel456 wrote: »
    I have a friend who inveaitgated benefits caps for the Dept of Social Protection during the time of Leo Varadkars tenure. They decided against them based on UK evidence as the UK authorities had to make so many exceptions for gypsy families. They also envisaged a high profile legal challenge on the basis of traveller rights.

    Your statement looks kinda valid if you read it without thinking.

    But if you actually digest it, it makes absolutely no sense!

    The Irish DoSP investigated a cap on benefits but abandoned it because the UK authorities had difficulties investigating gypsies.

    WTF!?!


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    #325
    rebel456
    Registered Users Posts: 282 ✭✭rebel456


    EndaHonesty wrote: »
    Your statement looks kinda valid if you read it without thinking.

    But if you actually digest it, it makes absolutely no sense!

    The Irish DoSP investigated a cap on benefits but abandoned it because the UK authorities had difficulties investigating gypsies.

    WTF!?!

    Where in my post did I say the UK authorities had a difficulty investigating UK gypsies?

    As I stated before. The Irish Dept Social Protection did some research (maybe 1/2 years ago) into having a benefits cap. But upon talking to their UK counterparts who implemented such a scheme the idea was dropped. The UK authorities experience was that they had to make constant exceptions to the policy for gypsy families who have a much higher number of kids per family than the national average - to prevent hardship (or claimed hardship) exceptions had to be granted.

    It was noted that if a stringent scheme was introduced in Ireland it would likely lead to discrimination cases against Traveller families.

    Personally I'm in favour of caps - but I'm giving the reason behind the most recent decision to abandon such.


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    #326
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    EndaHonesty wrote: »
    Simple question.

    What positive things from the Irish Traveller ethnic minority are worth saving?

    Sure you could say that about any group. What positive things from people on the dole, people from Cavan, Hasidic Jews and people with curly hair are "worth saving"?


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    #327
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Multiculturalism falls at the first hurdle if one of the smaller cultures places little value on concepts which are central to the prevailing culture.


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    #328
    THall04
    Registered Users Posts: 266 ✭✭THall04


    Akrasia wrote: »
    https://arrow.dit.ie/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1048&context=ijass

    Genuine question here , how did Tupperware cause the travellers so much grief in the '70s ???

    "Work Practices of Irish Travellers
    In the past, the traditional way of life enabled Travellers and the settled community
    to live under a system of mutual tolerance. The historical Irish dependence on
    agrarianism and farming created an economic need for migrant labourers in particular
    areas. Payment in kind (i.e. no monetary transaction) was the norm where a Traveller
    man would call to a farm, work there for the day and be given food and a place to
    sleep for the night. The introduction of Tupperware in the 1970's wreaked havoc
    on the traditional trade of Travellers     as it resulted in little work coming in to their
    community and the economic gap between Travellers and settled people has widened
    very considerably since this period."


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    #329
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    ^^^because they used to mend metal pots and pans (tink tink tink) and this skill became obsolete when plastic became the main material for household items. And since they placed no value on formal education they found it more difficult to diversify.


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    #330
    EndaHonesty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,544 ✭✭✭EndaHonesty


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Sure you could say that about any group. What positive things from people on the dole, people from Cavan, Hasidic Jews and people with curly hair are "worth saving"?

    So travellers are just the same as people on the dole? Or people from Cavan? Or Hasidic Jews? Or people with curly hair?


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    #331
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    EndaHonesty wrote: »
    So travellers are just the same as people on the dole? Or people from Cavan? Or Hasidic Jews? Or people with curly hair?

    Yes. They are all just the same. Hasidic Jews are the same as people from Cavan, both are the same as people with curly hair etc. Obviously that's the point I was making alright.


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