Varadkar told to "shut his gob" by the UK Sun

A Little Pony · 21-11-2017 11:58am

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

The vast majority of Unionists would not vote for a united Ireland.

It doesn't matter. It's out of Unionist hands.

The demographics argument is nonsense. It's been used for ages with absolutely no results. I wouldn't take much heed of this argument at all.

steddyeddy wrote: »

ALP you and Tim acknowledge that the UK will be poorer. You also say unionists will say never, never, but that's only loyalists, not moderate unionists.

In 2011 these were the demographics:

Protestant - 41.6%
Roman Catholic - 40.8%

There's more Catholics now. So really it's not up to loyalists whether Ireland unites. All it takes is for some of the moderate unionists and Catholics to be unhappy with being significantly poorer. It's going to happen and the DUP are responsible.

Again using the religious aspect shows nothing as society is getting less religious, I didn't put down Protestant in the 2011 census, I put down Jedi. You say moderate Unionists as if the large bulk of majority who believe in staying with the rest of the UK aren't moderate and you only have this small enclave of "moderates".

It doesn't show in reality, most Unionists vote for the DUP or UUP, conservative parties with most of it's politicians with conservative principles. A liberal - left of centre party trying to gain Unionist votes wouldn't stand a chance of doing so.

Snickers Man · 21-11-2017 1:05pm

kuntboy wrote: »

The Cult of Liberalism which currently infects Eire has declared him untouchable.

If you want to call it Eire then make your entire point as Gaeilge.

Otherwise, shut your gob.

Snickers Man · 21-11-2017 1:17pm

Jackson Uninterested Lambaste wrote: »

Probably, but what also would happen if CT suddenly went from 12.5% to 22.5%? Add in high-wages, high-rents, high-rainfall, high-distribution costs...

Doesn't something like 80% of exports to the EU go via Britain, how's that going to work out when they leave.

Nothing that a bit of investment in a high-speed rail link to Rosslare from Dublin and Limerick and a few high-speed high-capacity ferries on the Rosslare-Le Havre route won't fix.

Think outside box.

BillyBobBS · 21-11-2017 1:19pm

Snickers Man wrote: »

If you want to call it Eire then make your entire point as Gaeilge.

Otherwise, shut your gob.

Bit uncalled for that

FrancieBrady · 21-11-2017 1:21pm

Snickers Man wrote: »

Nothing that a bit of investment in a high-speed rail link to Rosslare from Dublin and Limerick and a few high-speed high-capacity ferries on the Rosslare-Le Havre route won't fix.

Think outside box.

Most hauliers would prefer the direct route to Europe (less time on the road) anyway, but it just hasn't been feasible up to now.
Big investment and move on. Break the dependency on Britain and it's market as much as possible can only make us a stronger economy.

Snickers Man · 21-11-2017 1:25pm

BillyBobBS wrote: »

Bit uncalled for that

Is it?
What part? I would argue that "shut your gob" is a tone set by the article about which we are all commenting.

And as for the use of "eire" in English. Who calls it that? Eire just means Ireland. There are a few ignorant people, usually on the other side of the Irish Sea, who thinks it means the Republic as distinct from the island as a whole. It doesn't.

And what other country is regularly referred to by its name in its own language while being discussed in English? We don't refer to Angela Merkel as Chancellor of Deutschland, unless we're speaking German. We don't comment on the beauty of girls from Sverige or Suomi or look forward to the World Cup in Россия.

Do we?

Grayson · 21-11-2017 1:26pm

A Little Pony wrote: »

You seem to think the UK economy is just going to sink into a black hole and the world will end, it's all nonsense. It's not going to happen, in 15-20 years once the benefits of Brexit come about and we open trade links with other parts of the world, that is when the benefits will be seen.

You accused others of living in a fantasy land. What you just posted is fantasy.

The current state of affairs is that the UK has a healthy trade being part of one of the largest trading blocks on the planet. That is real. It's actually reality. That's what's happening right now.

You have no evidence to suggest that the UK will be better off by removing itself from the Eu. And even if you happen to be right by some fluke you still admitted that there will be 15-20 years before it sees the benefits. Which means that you're willing to tank the economy for 15 years just to prove a point.

Snickers Man · 21-11-2017 1:27pm

Snickers Man wrote: »

We don't ..... look forward to the World Cup in Россия.

Do we?

Or even the one in دولة قطر

Grayson · 21-11-2017 1:29pm

Some of the comments on the original article are hilarious.

The Irish should be told that the UK will decide the border issue and the Irish would be well advised to keep very quiet. If they mess about they may find that the need for a border will no longer exist....if the UK shuts them up by occupying them.

Avatar MIA · 21-11-2017 3:43pm

BillyBobBS wrote: »

Bit uncalled for that

Read the thread title.

J Mysterio · 21-11-2017 4:06pm

end of the road wrote: »

well maybe the british government should fund it's border force properly and enforce the immigration laws it has.
and the people of britain start taking responsibility for their country and it's governance and start blaming the right people for it's issues, the politicians they elect. the british people are responsible for how britain is, not the EU.

Well said. Further, a lot of the immigrants to the UK are non EU nationals who had a right to go due to British colonialism.

Ewan Hoosarmi · 21-11-2017 4:15pm

I read the posts by the loyalists on this thread and they strike a note with me. ALP is telling us that we don't understand the mindset of the loyalist community.

Much as it pains me to agree with anything a loyalist has to say, he is right. Many people south of the border would be unable to understand the thinking of northern loyalists. Their views are so bitter and twisted that rational minds have trouble understanding their views. They would gladly sacrifice anything, including their own children, to be able to wave a bit of cloth on a stick. There is no reasoning with this mentality and it has blighted the 6 counties for centuries.

FrancieBrady · 21-11-2017 4:20pm

Ewan Hoosarmi wrote: »

I read the posts by the loyalists on this thread and they strike a note with me. ALP is telling us that we don't understand the mindset of the loyalist community.

Much as it pains me to agree with anything a loyalist has to say, he is right. Many people south of the border would be unable to understand the thinking of northern loyalists. Their views are so bitter and twisted that rational minds have trouble understanding their views. They would gladly sacrifice anything, including their own children, to be able to wave a bit of cloth on a stick. There is no reasoning with this mentality and it has blighted the 6 counties for centuries.

The rational evidence though suggests that even the most hardline loyalist would not sacrifice 'everything'.
Yes, they will shout Never Never Never and kick up a fuss in their own areas but eventually they accept what is right and normal and get on with it.

Look at the fleg dispute,parades, the Anglo Irish Agreement, the GFA etc. for examples.

Avatar MIA · 21-11-2017 4:29pm

Ewan Hoosarmi wrote: »

I read the posts by the loyalists on this thread and they strike a note with me. ALP is telling us that we don't understand the mindset of the loyalist community.

Much as it pains me to agree with anything a loyalist has to say, he is right. Many people south of the border would be unable to understand the thinking of northern loyalists. Their views are so bitter and twisted that rational minds have trouble understanding their views. They would gladly sacrifice anything, including their own children, to be able to wave a bit of cloth on a stick. There is no reasoning with this mentality and it has blighted the 6 counties for centuries.

It's central to what defines them. They have largely been left behind by their government(s) and so they cling to the monarchy (as long as they are not Catholic) because basically they have sweet fúck all else going for them. They are basking in former glories when their side beat the Catholics (1690), being gleeful cannon fodder in WW1 (of which a German "British" aristocracy were most, most grateful) and other aspects of empire which satisfies some reflected self importance.

Their tradition was to work (because it was given to them) rather than get an education (which was what a lot of the Nationalists resorted to) and are living in the wrong century.

AND (to be fair) they lived in a time where the IRA would target their side (I'm ignoring loyalist violence, because it's largely irrelevant in this context) and gave them something to rally around.

They have far more in common with the working class of inner city Dublin than they do with any castle dweller.

A Little Pony · 21-11-2017 4:31pm

Ewan Hoosarmi wrote: »

I read the posts by the loyalists on this thread and they strike a note with me. ALP is telling us that we don't understand the mindset of the loyalist community.

Much as it pains me to agree with anything a loyalist has to say, he is right. Many people south of the border would be unable to understand the thinking of northern loyalists. Their views are so bitter and twisted that rational minds have trouble understanding their views. They would gladly sacrifice anything, including their own children, to be able to wave a bit of cloth on a stick. There is no reasoning with this mentality and it has blighted the 6 counties for centuries.

My post was explaining the mentality of nationalism here than anything about violence, I think we all need to reject violence. Nationalism is a different breed in NI than most places in Europe that it weighs heavier in the consciousnesses than economics.

But I can make arguments economically for the Union but also ask serious questions about Irish unity and the economics of it, the health service, taxes, social security and so on. But I do think if we go into detail on this on this thread it would just take it way off topic as it's about Leo and a Sun article.

Avatar MIA · 21-11-2017 4:34pm

A Little Pony wrote: »

But I can make arguments economically for the Union but also ask serious questions about Irish unity and the economics of it, the health service, taxes, social security and so on. But I do think if we go into detail on this on this thread it would just take it way off topic as it's about Leo and a Sun article.

You might start a thread on it, because there's a lot of conventional wisdom to be tackled. For example the NHS and Tax. For example, when looking at tax, it's best to look at relative disposable income.

alchemist33 · 21-11-2017 4:57pm

As I heard predicted on the radio yesterday, the article has been ignored by most but sets the tone for people whose mindset is more closely aligned with the Sun. Arlene Foster has now spoken about Leo as if she's his headmistress, and Ireland hasn't a say on the issue.

Odhinn · 21-11-2017 5:00pm

alchemist33 wrote: »

As I heard predicted on the radio yesterday, the article has been ignored by most but sets the tone for people whose mindset is more closely aligned with the Sun. Arlene Foster has now spoken about Leo as if she's his headmistress, and Ireland hasn't a say on the issue.

Anyone playing hands across the border with arlene is only going to lose a hand tbh.

FrancieBrady · 21-11-2017 5:05pm

Somebody should ask Arlene and Nigel 'is that all you have got?'

We have the backing of 27 EU states and a veto, they have a fragile and temporary hold on a Tory party in internal chaos.

Odhinn · 21-11-2017 5:07pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Somebody should ask Arlene and Nigel 'is that all you have got?'

We have the backing of 27 EU states and a veto, they have a fragile and temporary hold on a Tory party in internal chaos.

It's the most I can ever remember the DUP having, tbh.

munsterlegend · 21-11-2017 5:53pm

alchemist33 wrote: »

As I heard predicted on the radio yesterday, the article has been ignored by most but sets the tone for people whose mindset is more closely aligned with the Sun. Arlene Foster has now spoken about Leo as if she's his headmistress, and Ireland hasn't a say on the issue.

Foster as ever has nothing constructive to offer and is playing to her electorate mindset on Dublin interference. As Barnier said yesterday the north is not like the rest of the uk and a different solution will have to be found. Johnson has no interest in anything to do with Ireland so a border along the Irish Sea is what will happen and London values her relationship with Dublin far more than unionist concerns.

Ewan Hoosarmi · 21-11-2017 5:58pm

Snickers Man wrote: »

Nothing that a bit of investment in a high-speed rail link to Rosslare from Dublin and Limerick and a few high-speed high-capacity ferries on the Rosslare-Le Havre route won't fix.

Think outside box.

Just on this point. Are the UK going full ballistic isolationist and doing away with the TIR convention as well? That's an international thing, not just EU.

steddyeddy · 21-11-2017 6:03pm

A Little Pony wrote: »

The demographics argument is nonsense. It's been used for ages with absolutely no results. I wouldn't take much heed of this argument at all.

Again using the religious aspect shows nothing as society is getting less religious, I didn't put down Protestant in the 2011 census, I put down Jedi. You say moderate Unionists as if the large bulk of majority who believe in staying with the rest of the UK aren't moderate and you only have this small enclave of "moderates".

I'm sure you did put down Jedi but you repeatedly self identify quite strongly with Protestantism and Protestantism alone on this site. 41% of people 6 years ago felt strongly enough that the put down Catholic on the census. It's ridiculous to say you can't associate religion with unionism/nationalism, you and Tim do it constantly on this site.

At most you could consider them neutral regarding nationalism/unionism, but you can bet they won't have an ideological objection to unification. If they're significantly poorer, which is something you want, then they won't tolerate that for much longer.

steddyeddy · 21-11-2017 6:08pm

Ewan Hoosarmi wrote: »

I read the posts by the loyalists on this thread and they strike a note with me. ALP is telling us that we don't understand the mindset of the loyalist community.

Much as it pains me to agree with anything a loyalist has to say, he is right. Many people south of the border would be unable to understand the thinking of northern loyalists. Their views are so bitter and twisted that rational minds have trouble understanding their views. They would gladly sacrifice anything, including their own children, to be able to wave a bit of cloth on a stick. There is no reasoning with this mentality and it has blighted the 6 counties for centuries.

I agree completely . I think partition has given them a sense of entitlement. Threaten violence and everything will work out in the end. Their focus on sectarianism has held them back economically for decades. The problem is that Brexit, that they wanted won't just hold them back, it will make all of Northern Ireland consistently worse off. That won't be tolerated.

A Little Pony · 21-11-2017 6:09pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

The demographics argument is nonsense. It's been used for ages with absolutely no results. I wouldn't take much heed of this argument at all.

Again using the religious aspect shows nothing as society is getting less religious, I didn't put down Protestant in the 2011 census, I put down Jedi. You say moderate Unionists as if the large bulk of majority who believe in staying with the rest of the UK aren't moderate and you only have this small enclave of "moderates".

I'm sure you did put down Jedi but you repeatedly self identify quite strongly with Protestantism and Protestantism alone on this site. 41% of people 6 years ago felt strongly enough that the put down Catholic on the census. It's ridiculous to say you can't associate religion with unionism/Catholicism, you and Tim do it constantly on this site.

At most you could consider them neutral regarding nationalism/unionism, but you can bet they won't have an ideological objection to unification. If they're significantly poorer, which is something you want, then they won't tolerate that for much longer.

Fake news, most certainly not. I have always said I'm not religious. A large branch off of Unionism is nationalism, it's just not Irish nationalism.

A Little Pony · 21-11-2017 6:11pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

Ewan Hoosarmi wrote: »

I read the posts by the loyalists on this thread and they strike a note with me. ALP is telling us that we don't understand the mindset of the loyalist community.

Much as it pains me to agree with anything a loyalist has to say, he is right. Many people south of the border would be unable to understand the thinking of northern loyalists. Their views are so bitter and twisted that rational minds have trouble understanding their views. They would gladly sacrifice anything, including their own children, to be able to wave a bit of cloth on a stick. There is no reasoning with this mentality and it has blighted the 6 counties for centuries.

I agree completely . I think partition has given them a sense of entitlement. Threaten violence and everything will work out in the end. Their focus on sectarianism has held them back economically for decades. The problem is that Brexit, that they wanted won't just hold them back, it will make all of Northern Ireland consistently worse off. That won't be tolerated.

You haven't told us what you want to happen as far as the EU is concerned. It seems like a waste of energy complaining about something that is already underway, do you just expect a reverse on the vote?

steddyeddy · 21-11-2017 6:11pm

A Little Pony wrote: »

Fake news, most certainly not. I have always said I'm not religious. A large branch off of Unionism is nationalism, it's just not Irish nationalism.

Just to be clear Protestants have nothing to do with unionism? You previously said the IRA liked attack Protestants. You really meant they liked attack loyalists didn't you?

A Little Pony · 21-11-2017 6:15pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

Fake news, most certainly not. I have always said I'm not religious. A large branch off of Unionism is nationalism, it's just not Irish nationalism.

Just to be clear Protestants have nothing to do with unionism? You previously said the IRA liked attack Protestants. You really meant they liked attack loyalists didn't you?

They attacked all aspects of people from the Orange cultural background. That includes religion.

J Mysterio · 21-11-2017 6:17pm

alchemist33 wrote: »

As I heard predicted on the radio yesterday, the article has been ignored by most but sets the tone for people whose mindset is more closely aligned with the Sun. Arlene Foster has now spoken about Leo as if she's his headmistress, and Ireland hasn't a say on the issue.

Surely she has to agree with what Leo is saying RE: the border... we can have no hard border. What is she on about at all?

Also, thought this was humourous given the context:

Some people are taking their moment in the sun

FrancieBrady · 21-11-2017 6:19pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

Surely she has to agree with what Leo is saying RE: the border... we can have no hard border. What is she on about at all?

Also, thought this was humourous given the context:

Some people are taking their moment in the sun

Arlene is doing the stock DUP dance when they know they are backed into a corner. Attack Dublin or SF.

Pure siege politics. She cannot even remotely formulate a defence of the northern Ireland Leave stance and so plays to her base.

Varadkar told to "shut his gob" by the UK Sun

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