Varadkar told to "shut his gob" by the UK Sun

ArchXStanton

TAFKAlawhec wrote: »

If in the view of TDs and Senators that the Lisbon Treaty was clouded up in too much bureaucratic language that it made it difficult to read, the proper reaction should have been for them via the Government to send the copies back to Brussels asking to clarify at the very least key points within the treaty in a more direct language. If the EU refused to do that then the default for campaigning should have been a "no" vote by the government on the basis that it was not clear what Ireland was signing up for. While the EU could be accused of being sneaky, it's the fault of the Oireachtas for not seeking to stand up in the national interest. In any case, the first result was No, some clarifications and amendments were made to try and satisfy Irish concerns which was then enough for it to pass a second time. The EU were forced by Irish citizens to making concessions.

Oddly while not as blatantly spoken off, "Jobs!" was a dog whistle used by Vote Leave on two fronts. One was claiming almost every single time that when Remain was warning about multinational companies leaving the UK in the event of a Brexit vote, it was retorted with "PROJECT FEAR!!". Second was the underlying current of foreigners coming over and taking "their" jobs. Well since the vote the amount of foreign workers & residents from the EU in the UK has seen a significant drop, so much so that the NHS has a nursing shortage and that crops in places like Linconshire and Cornwall are rotting away because the seasonal workers from eastern Europe aren't coming over and the local "natives" who are on the dole can't be arsed to pick them for a few weeks because it ain't for those who want to do something cushy and the pay isn't too great.

I don't know if you remember at the time,but when the no vote was returned,Sarkozy said "the Irish must vote again" and was on the first plane to Dublin...now just take a minute and let that sink in...We have a French politician telling the Irish people who made a national democratic vote that they would have to vote again....anyhow..

“The substance of the constitution is preserved.That is a fact.”
– German Chancellor Angela Merkel, speech in the European Parliament, 27 June 2007
_______
The good thing is that all the symbolic elements are gone, and that which really matters – the core – is left.”
– Anders Fogh Rasmussen, Danish Prime Minister, Jyllands-Posten, 25 June 2007
_______
“The substance of what was agreed in 2004 has been retained. What is gone is the term ‘constitution’ “.
– Dermot Ahern, Irish Foreign Minister, Daily Mail Ireland, 25 June 2007
______
“90 per cent of it is still there…These changes haven’t made any dramatic change to the substance of what was agreed back in 2004.”
– Irish Taoiseach Bertie Ahern, Irish Independent, 24 June 2007
____
“The aim of the Constitutional Treaty was to be more readable; the aim of this treaty is to be unreadable … The Constitution aimed to be clear, whereas this treaty had to be unclear. It is a success.”
– Karel de Gucht, Belgian Foreign Minister, Flandreinfo, 23 June 2007
____
“The good thing about not calling it a Constltution is that no one can ask for a referendum on it.”
– Giuliano Amato, speech at London School of Econmics, 21 February 2007

TAFKAlawhec

ArchXStanton wrote: »

I don't know if you remember at the time,but when the no vote was returned,Sarkozy said "the Irish must vote again" and was on the first plane to Dublin...now just take a minute and let that sink in...We have a French politician telling the Irish people who made a national democratic vote that they would have to vote again....anyhow..

“The substance of the constitution is preserved.That is a fact.”
– German Chancellor Angela Merkel, speech in the European Parliament, 27 June 2007
_______
The good thing is that all the symbolic elements are gone, and that which really matters – the core – is left.”
– Anders Fogh Rasmussen, Danish Prime Minister, Jyllands-Posten, 25 June 2007
_______
“The substance of what was agreed in 2004 has been retained. What is gone is the term ‘constitution’ “.
– Dermot Ahern, Irish Foreign Minister, Daily Mail Ireland, 25 June 2007
______
“90 per cent of it is still there…These changes haven’t made any dramatic change to the substance of what was agreed back in 2004.”
– Irish Taoiseach Bertie Ahern, Irish Independent, 24 June 2007
____
“The aim of the Constitutional Treaty was to be more readable; the aim of this treaty is to be unreadable … The Constitution aimed to be clear, whereas this treaty had to be unclear. It is a success.”
– Karel de Gucht, Belgian Foreign Minister, Flandreinfo, 23 June 2007
____
“The good thing about not calling it a Constltution is that no one can ask for a referendum on it.”
– Giuliano Amato, speech at London School of Econmics, 21 February 2007

Sarkozy could have had his balls tickled by Bruni all the way on that flight to Dublin for all I care, it wasn't his call to make. So he panicked and said Ireland must have a second referendum, that was piss easy for him to say as he wasn't/isn't subject to the Irish electorate but his own in France. Throwing Ireland out of the EU for rejecting the Lisbon Treaty was never, ever going to happen so the Irish electorate had the power play here. Amato is wrong regarding the Irish constitution so there's no point taking that further. As for the core/substance/90% quotes, maybe the Irish electorate was either fine or not bothered about most of the treaty but had concerns about some parts that they felt was important to them? Just because the core of it is declared to be unchanged doesn't mean that none of the treaty was unchanged.
Also if we're going to speak out against undue foreign influence in an Irish referendum, that surely also extends to Nigel Farage and UKIP sticking their nose into Lisbon II? Whatever about the French & Germany urging the Irish to vote, an English publicity seeking right-wing former public schoolboy plum speaking former stockbroker telling the Irish how to vote? The Yes campaign could never have bought such publicity.

steddyeddy

Great article from the Guardian detailing the range of opinions north and south of the Irish border on Brexit. It seems only our more orange Northern Ireland posters are happy about this sh1tstorm.

Ireland has said it will block progress of Brexit negotiations in December, unless the UK give a formal written guarantee there will be no hard border with Northern Ireland.

The Guardian view on Brexit and the Irish border: Britain’s shameful dereliction
Editorial: From the referendum campaign onwards, Brexiters have ignored the dire implications for Ireland. The neglect is a political and moral failure alike
Read more
In frank remarks before a breakfast meeting with British PM Theresa May, the Irish prime minister, Leo Varadkar, said Brexit-backing politicians had not “thought all this through” in the years they had been pushing for a British departure from the EU.

We asked our readers living in Northern Ireland and the Republic what they made of the state of Brexit negotiations, how concerned they are about the lack of progress, and what they thought should be done about the border question.

‘Britain is dragging us with them’
Britain is heading towards a hard Brexit and dragging us with them. Only two solutions possible to avoid a hard border: the north stays in the customs union and single market, or a united Ireland. If Britain frustrates our appeal on the former, then they must give us a vote on the latter.
Conor Heaney, 37, Derry

‘A lot of people my age are ready to protest if any visible border is erected’
I can’t really believe there won’t be a visible frictionless border, as much as I want it. I want the situation to be resolved peacefully. The emotion it creates, the thought of a check point: I don’t want there to be violence, but there will be protest. We are still suffering a hangover from The Troubles and that physical border will be a heartbreaking reminder of the past.

I have noticed an increase in the price of food over recent months. This can be quite difficult because I am paid in euros. A lot of people my age are ready to protest if any visible border is erected - we will set up camp on the border and you will have to drive over us.

Noelle, 28, Northern Irish citizen working in the Republic Of Ireland

‘No thought was given to what leaving the EU actually means’


It’s an absolute shambles. No thought was given to what leaving the EU actually means for trade and movement of people. The actions of the DUP in propping up the Tory government will do them and their supporters harm in the long run.

The border has to be moved to the Irish Sea. NI should remain part of the customs union and the single market no matter what the island of Britain does. It is the only practical solution for trade and the only one that preserves the Good Friday Agreement. The unionists will hate this but they have brought it on themselves by backing and campaigning for leave.

There are opportunities in any crisis. I think NI has the opportunity to serve as a bridge between Britain and the EU - a kind of free trade zone half in, half out of the UK.

John McAuley, 40, Belfast

‘The English are winging it’
The English are “winging it” with no idea of what they are doing. The fact that a small group of people headed by Theresa May can make such far-reaching decisions affecting my children and grandchildren’s future is almost surreal.

It is as if we are an afterthought and confirms what many have believed for a long time; we are truly second-class citizens.

Martin, 68, Belfast

‘Remain MPs must find their courage’

Guardian Today: the headlines, the analysis, the debate - sent direct to you
Read more
Unless Remain MPs get their act together and find their courage, there will be a hard Brexit with no border deal. Then Johnson and Gove - by now PM and chancellor - will blame the EU.

They have no solution to the border issue because they know there can only be a hard border, like before.

Mick Collier, 58, Galway

‘I feel angry our hard-won peace is being jeopardised’
I have no idea how the border question can be resolved and I doubt anybody does including the British ministers negotiating it. The only people I now trust to put our case are the Irish government.

I feel very angry that our hard won peace is being jeopardised by people who have no real understanding of our delicately balanced political arrangements here.

Janet Rice, 63, Belfast

‘It’s mind-boggling that the British establishment don’t get this’


The British government seem to trade in generalities, that “progress” is being made, when it is clearly evident that there was no foresight and no appreciation of what this exit process would entail. Or indeed, the real implications of such isolation.

For peace, stability and economic progress the North must remain in the Customs Union or something similar. Otherwise, chaos. If we go back to a border we potentially open up wounds that have barely healed. It is mind-boggling that the British establishment don’t get this.

Michael Harnett, Dublin

‘The British don’t want us and the Republic can’t afford us’
The British haven’t a clue about Brexit even after all this time Their complete lack of concern for and knowledge of Northern Ireland (which, we are constantly told is as British as Yorkshire) and its unique circumstances is jaw dropping. A second British-imposed border on the island of Ireland is totally unacceptable. It can only be resolved with the North having full membership of the EU as before: in short, a united Ireland.

As I work on the border, I buy my car fuel in the Republic because it’s cheaper. After Brexit, am I going to be stopped, have my car searched and made to show receipts or be accused of smuggling? And if so, who will stop me? The British army? British Customs and Excise?

The Irish authorities should refuse to pay for any border controls: after all, it’s Britain who is leaving. They must pay the full amount for any new border controls if these are ever reinstalled. The British don’t want us and the Republic can’t afford us, so accept with extreme caution any honeyed words from Boris and his Irish counterpart.

John Austin, 52, Northern Ireland

A Little Pony

They can block all they want, isn't going to be a deal anyway, never was.

steddyeddy

A Little Pony wrote: »

They can block all they want, isn't going to be a deal anyway, never was.

Well ALP what should have you worried is the fact that Northern Ireland voted to remain in the EU. I know you'll say the UK voted to leave, but this doesn't change the fact a significant majority in Northern Ireland are leaving against their wishes, being left financially worse off and will have their movement curtailed by a hard border.

You and Tim are in the vast minority, I.E people who are willing to be worse off as long as the UK leave the EU. A border poll is now also a vote to join the EU again and you can be sure most people will support that if a no deal scenario occurs. You have basically done more damage to the union than the IRA ever could. It's a massive own goal.

steddyeddy

You might enjoy this video Tim and Alp. It's on the James O'Brien show on London's popular LBC channel. It details the problems with a hard border and gets opinions from Irish people north and south of the border. You actually have unionists ringing up saying " I would never have thought I'd hear my self saying this but a united Ireland wouldn't upset as many of us as before the Brexit vote". Another says Leo Varadker is doing more for the North than England is. Another former unionist says a united Ireland is the way forward.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cz_z2N2NsiA

A Little Pony

steddyeddy wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

They can block all they want, isn't going to be a deal anyway, never was.

Well ALP what should have you worried is the fact that Northern Ireland voted to remain in the EU. I know you'll say the UK voted to leave, but this doesn't change the fact a significant majority in Northern Ireland are leaving against their wishes, being left financially worse off and will have their movement curtailed by a hard border.

You and Tim are in the vast minority, I.E people who are willing to be worse off as long as the UK leave the EU. A border poll is now also a vote to join the EU again and you can be sure most people will support that if a no deal scenario occurs. You have basically done more damage to the union than the IRA ever could. It's a massive own goal.

Absolute and utter nonsense. As I have said before on here I have family members who voted to remain, they would rather dip themselves into acid baths than vote for a united Ireland. It just isn't going to happen from the vast majority of Unionists.

steddyeddy

A Little Pony wrote: »

Absolute and utter nonsense. As I have said before on here I have family members who voted to remain, they would rather dip themselves into acid baths than vote for a united Ireland. It just isn't going to happen from the vast majority of Unionists.

Those people are in the vast vast minority. Most unionists aren't loyalists. They're sensible people who won't like to be left worse off.

A Little Pony

steddyeddy wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

Absolute and utter nonsense. As I have said before on here I have family members who voted to remain, they would rather dip themselves into acid baths than vote for a united Ireland. It just isn't going to happen from the vast majority of Unionists.

Those people are in the vast vast minority. Most unionists aren't loyalists. They're sensible people who won't like to be left worse off.

You are just wrong on this. The vast majority of Unionists would not vote for a united Ireland. They aren't that passionate about the EU. It's fantasy land and people who peddle it know it. The bond with Great Britain is FAR more in the hearts of Unionists than the EU is or ever was.

steddyeddy

A Little Pony wrote: »

You are just wrong on this. The vast majority of Unionists would not vote for a united Ireland. They aren't that passionate about the EU. It's fantasy land and people who peddle it know it. The bond with Great Britain is FAR more in the hearts of Unionists than the EU is or ever was.

The vast majority of unionists will not willingly submit to being made significantly poorer. You and Tim may be happy with that but most people won't be. It's not about the EU at this stage it's about not bankrupting the country for future generations.

A Little Pony

steddyeddy wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

You are just wrong on this. The vast majority of Unionists would not vote for a united Ireland. They aren't that passionate about the EU. It's fantasy land and people who peddle it know it. The bond with Great Britain is FAR more in the hearts of Unionists than the EU is or ever was.

The vast majority of unionists will not willingly submit to being made significantly poorer. You and Tim may be happy with that but most people won't be. It's not about the EU at this stage it's about not bankrupting the country for future generations.

Based on no evidence whatsoever. It's naive to think we will abandon our love of the Union because we left some poxy club.

steddyeddy

A Little Pony wrote: »

Based on no evidence whatsoever. It's naive to think we will abandon our love of the Union because we left some poxy club.

So you think my idea that unionists don't want to be poorer is based on no evidence whatsoever. OK so, put my right. You think unionists are looking forward to being a lot poorer? Look at the show I linked. You have self confessed unionists saying the opposite of you with regards united Ireland. Several of them VS you and Tim.

I don't think you realise the gravity of the situation. Barnier said today that the UK's financial industry would not be able to trade in the EU. That's 60-80% of the UK's economy hammered in March 2019.

youreadthat

TAFKAlawhec wrote: »

Nordie here. I voted remain because IMHO I knew Brexit was going to be a colossal f**k up which was much less about the finances and social make up of the UK and more about delusions of grandeur and an undercurrent of mild xenophobia by a voter base that has little understanding of the realpolitk of international affairs or the underlying end game of many of its influential proponents.

One important thing to remember is that the Brexit pushed for was never about the UK overall, rather it was to mainly satisfy the whims of a wing element of one political party in particular. There were a few Labour heads calling for Leave, but they were overall kept at the back compared to Tories and Kippers. This has continued with the likes of Brexit Tories demanding that ministerial appointments are favoured towards their own rather than any whom supported Remain. If there was to be an effective set of terms on leaving the EU it would ideally involve a cross-party negotiating team but understandably Labour & the Lib Dems won't touch it with a pole after the Scottish referendum experience, so it's now being held hostage by an element of the Tories who seem to think that the Brexit they want is the exact same Brexit that every single one of the 17.4 million who voted Leave wants.

Those that aren't being held hostage to their delusions are now finding out what the UK's position in the world stage is. The mess negotiations with the rEU is down to the actions of the UK. No one else. It is simple enough to understand that it is not in the EUs interest to make May and Davis wear sackcloth and ashes but it is important for the EU to negotiate in a position that maintains and supports its union in the interests of its members. And if things break down with no deal made come the day of leaving? The magical idea from Boris "I didn't know the Irish border would be a problem" Johnson & Michael Gove is to make the UK the next Singapore. Newsflash - there's a bit of a difference between the running of a city-state and a varied country like the UK with several times the population, which is already dependent heavily on financial services and service industries in one area of England to prop up the rest of the UK, which already has the weakest of workers rights of any EU country. It's perhaps not surprising that the wingnut element of the Conservatives look up to Singapore, a financial centre with few rules governed by an authoritarian government in a psuedo-democracy gerrymanded in the style of the old Stormont government who micromanage the activities of its residents. Even mild dissidence isn't tolerated.

As for "taking back control" - well Varadkar is flexing his nuts appropriately in his country's interest that it has The S*n worried enough because like Johnson and his ilk, not only should everyone bend down to their wishes they didn't think of the Irish border question because they've never really had to consider it on a day-to-day basis when the major GB parties don't really try to run for seats in NI. If they didn't see that coming, what else have they not had the foresight for other that to make bull**** up about pumping millions of pounds into the NHS per day from the money that would otherwise be sent to the EU? The Yanks have already slapped punitive tariffs on Bombardier manufacturing parts made in Belfast while a high up member of the Trump administration has said that if the UK wants to sign up to a free-trade deal with the USA, it needs to become America's b*tch. That might suit neo-cons like Liam Fox but the UK population generally don't seem too fond of the idea of having hormone fuelled beef, chlorine washed chicken and wood shavings in bread being sold in Tesco and Asda. Not to mention that India has indicated that any trade deal must allow for easier access for Indian nationals to work & reside in the UK.

The psyche driving a lot of this I believe is down to the UK over the last several centuries never having had to suffer a major humiliation on its own turf alongside a faded empire that is irrelevant to how the world works today. The likes of Germany, France, Italy, Spain etc. have all been humbled in wars that are still being told today. The only way that will happen to the UK is when they realise that they have little to no leverage to bully others around like they once had with the old colonies having moved on to participate in their own regional hegemony, shocked at the Irish daring to stand up to them rather than being good croppies and return to the bosom of the UK, and confusion as to why those in mainland Europe aren't in awe of the Union Jack.

I would like to be proved wrong but I don't see it. What's happened is a carefully engineered coup that is being led by an elite that has played to base fears and worries of a part of the population to turn them into useful idiots who might find out too late to understand that the head Brexiteers aren't doing it for their interests or the interests of the general welfare of the whole of the UK - because if/when things go massively tits up, the likes of Boris Johnson ("£250,000 is chicken feed"), Jacob Rees-Mogg ("The growing use of food banks is rather uplifting") and Nigel Farage (self-styled man-of-the-people former stockbroker who claimed a salary of £85k left him poor) will have already manned the life boats to set sail elsewhere - and Farage has even admitted to thinking of doing it.

Or maybe, just maybe, people are fed up of a city bigger than cork turning up every year?

end of the road

youreadthat wrote: »

Or maybe, just maybe, people are fed up of a city bigger than cork turning up every year?

well maybe the british government should fund it's border force properly and enforce the immigration laws it has.
and the people of britain start taking responsibility for their country and it's governance and start blaming the right people for it's issues, the politicians they elect. the british people are responsible for how britain is, not the EU.

A Little Pony

steddyeddy wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

Based on no evidence whatsoever. It's naive to think we will abandon our love of the Union because we left some poxy club.

So you think my idea that unionists don't want to be poorer is based on no evidence whatsoever. OK so, put my right. You think unionists are looking forward to being a lot poorer? Look at the show I linked. You have self confessed unionists  saying the opposite of you with regards united Ireland. Several of them VS you and Tim.

I don't think you realise the gravity of the situation. Barnier said today that the UK's financial industry would not be able to trade in the EU. That's 60-80% of the UK's economy hammered in March 2019.

You seem to think the UK economy is just going to sink into a black hole and the world will end, it's all nonsense. It's not going to happen, in 15-20 years once the benefits of Brexit come about and we open trade links with other parts of the world, that is when the benefits will be seen.

The argument you are making is some fantasy land that Unionists as a population in NI are suddenly going to switch from being Unionists to being Nationalists and wrap themselves in the Irish flag because they somehow must love the EU, they must have regrets about the vote, they will surely throw everything they believe in by voting for the very thing that goes against their own belief systems and has done for centuries.

It's based on no evidence, no actual data with consistent polling showing Unionists because we are leaving the EU will want to join with the south. I don't think you actually understand the mentality of this place Eddy, it's not like what you think by focusing so much on economics

Northern Ireland is a very nationalistic place, a very traditional place based on the two ideologies which exist in this part of the world, it actually wouldn't matter how bad or how good the economy is doing at any period of time, a huge amount of the population votes on tribal lines, the tribe you belong to, it's a question of belonging.

I don't know any Unionists who LOVE the EU so much that they would want to join with the South, even when I know Unionists who voted remain, the actual map if you check out Wikipedia does show that obviously you had plenty of Unionists who voted to remain, but you also had a lot who voted to leave. I have yet to see any social trend by living in NI which sees Unionists wanting to stay in the EU to the degree that they would join the south such is the disgust, it just doesn't exist.

If you made the argument that some Unionists want NI to remain in the SM and CU, you most likely are right, no denying that, but to make the gigantic leap from that to believing they would throw the core beliefs who hold politically and culturally for centuries over the EU is as I say very naive and a bit of a misunderstanding of the very society itself.

But I think the boat on the SM and CU has sailed, I don't see NI getting a specific deal to the rest of the UK, I don't see how that can be delivered when Scotland would just want likewise and then you get to the point of the situation being irrelevant and the wishes of the UK population overall being ignored and just staying in with one foot. 

I also don't know what people who complain about Brexit want, the process is underway now, it's most likely not going to be stopped now, I think the time of stopping Brexit has come and gone, maybe even the issue of being part of the single market too, access to it might be available, but that will require negotiation and money, which could happen, so maybe if that happened it will make you happy?

I just see a lot of talking on Brexit from people against it but they don't tell us what they think should happen, do they think the vote should be ignored? Should Brexit just not happen? Is Democracy irrelevant now if that is the case? The voting public who voted for Brexit would never forgive what would be the ultimate betrayal.

Avatar MIA

...

Odhinn

A Little Pony wrote: »

You seem to think the UK economy is just going to sink into a black hole and the world will end, it's all nonsense. It's not going to happen, in 15-20 years once the benefits of Brexit come about and we open trade links with other parts of the world, that is when the benefits will be seen.
.............

Aha.

end of the road

A Little Pony wrote: »

You seem to think the UK economy is just going to sink into a black hole and the world will end, it's all nonsense. It's not going to happen, in 15-20 years once the benefits of Brexit come about and we open trade links with other parts of the world, that is when the benefits will be seen.

The argument you are making is some fantasy land that Unionists as a population in NI are suddenly going to switch from being Unionists to being Nationalists and wrap themselves in the Irish flag because they somehow must love the EU, they must have regrets about the vote, they will surely throw everything they believe in by voting for the very thing that goes against their own belief systems and has done for centuries.

It's based on no evidence, no actual data with consistent polling showing Unionists because we are leaving the EU will want to join with the south. I don't think you actually understand the mentality of this place Eddy, it's not like what you think by focusing so much on economics

Northern Ireland is a very nationalistic place, a very traditional place based on the two ideologies which exist in this part of the world, it actually wouldn't matter how bad or how good the economy is doing at any period of time, a huge amount of the population votes on tribal lines, the tribe you belong to, it's a question of belonging.

I don't know any Unionists who LOVE the EU so much that they would want to join with the South, even when I know Unionists who voted remain, the actual map if you check out Wikipedia does show that obviously you had plenty of Unionists who voted to remain, but you also had a lot who voted to leave. I have yet to see any social trend by living in NI which sees Unionists wanting to stay in the EU to the degree that they would join the south such is the disgust, it just doesn't exist.

If you made the argument that some Unionists want NI to remain in the SM and CU, you most likely are right, no denying that, but to make the gigantic leap from that to believing they would throw the core beliefs who hold politically and culturally for centuries over the EU is as I say very naive and a bit of a misunderstanding of the very society itself.

But I think the boat on the SM and CU has sailed, I don't see NI getting a specific deal to the rest of the UK, I don't see how that can be delivered when Scotland would just want likewise and then you get to the point of the situation being irrelevant and the wishes of the UK population overall being ignored and just staying in with one foot.

I also don't know what people who complain about Brexit want, the process is underway now, it's most likely not going to be stopped now, I think the time of stopping Brexit has come and gone, maybe even the issue of being part of the single market too, access to it might be available, but that will require negotiation and money, which could happen, so maybe if that happened it will make you happy?

I just see a lot of talking on Brexit from people against it but they don't tell us what they think should happen, do they think the vote should be ignored? Should Brexit just not happen? Is Democracy irrelevant now if that is the case? The voting public who voted for Brexit would never forgive what would be the ultimate betrayal.

actually the vote should be ignored. it was an advisery referendum which was not binding. only 17000000 voted for brexit, 53000000 didn't vote for it, so democracy actually hasn't been followed.
britain can already trade with the countries which matter and which can be traded with. outside the EU britain won't be able to get access to such deals and will only be able to trade with basket cases.

Junkyard Tom

A Little Pony wrote: »

The vast majority of Unionists would not vote for a united Ireland.

It doesn't matter. It's out of Unionist hands.

Agricola

If it didn't mean an almighty backlash and loss of seats, the majority of MPs would love to go the advisory referendum line and throw Brexit in the bin. All but the most myopic little englanders know that this is just years of chaos and uncertainty ahead. And what does a financial services powerhouse like London want with chaos and uncertainty.

steddyeddy

ALP you and Tim acknowledge that the UK will be poorer. You also say unionists will say never, never, but that's only loyalists, not moderate unionists.

In 2011 these were the demographics:

Protestant - 41.6%
Roman Catholic - 40.8%

There's more Catholics now. So really it's not up to loyalists whether Ireland unites. All it takes is for some of the moderate unionists and Catholics to be unhappy with being significantly poorer. It's going to happen and the DUP are responsible.

FrancieBrady

steddyeddy wrote: »

ALP you and Tim acknowledge that the UK will be poorer. You also say unionists will say never, never, but that's only loyalists, not moderate unionists.

In 2011 these were the demographics:

Protestant - 41.6%
Roman Catholic - 40.8%

There's more Catholics now. So really it's not up to loyalists whether Ireland unites. All it takes is for some of the moderate unionists and Catholics to be unhappy with being significantly poorer. It's going to happen and the DUP are responsible.

Give the farming community a year, two at the most and they will be stampeding over the border rather than potentially lose land. And that is a very real prospect.
We got another farm based meat business today, relocating out of Fermanagh to Monaghan.

steddyeddy

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Give the farming community a year, two at the most and they will be stampeding over the border rather than potentially lose land. And that is a very real prospect.
We got another farm based meat business today, relocating out of Fermanagh to Monaghan.

They'll lose their farm subsidy and face increased export prices. Yet some of them voted for this. Economic suicide.

Avatar MIA

Unionists are pragmatic. Loyalists not so much. Only a certain amount of them need to be convinced.

It's the misreading of this that allowed the unionist political class to take the opportunity to give the nationalists a kicking by exiting the EU and leave the Free State behind. This is going to come back and monumentally bite them in the ass.

FrancieBrady

steddyeddy wrote: »

They'll lose their farm subsidy and face increased export prices. Yet some of them voted for this. Economic suicide.

I know quite a few farmers and most of them know they made a mistake following Arlene's lead.
Some of them are very fearful of the future, their voices will only be heard when it is too late.

super_furry

The Sun is scum and anyone who reads it on a regular basis is an idiot.

Infini

To be honest unless the penny drops in Conservatard HQ that this is gonna turn into a massive clusterfeck people in the UK are gonna find out too late how wrong they are by just walking out the door. I mean for one thing so long as they're still in they have a bloody Veto over things. They leave then its take it or leave it on any free trade.

As things currently stand "Brexit means Bolloxed". No plan, no idea of what theyre doing and no hope if they continue with this. EU needs fixing and accountability and with all the populists getting in atm the penny's dropping there that they need shape up.

There's only one way of getting out of this and thats to abandon this farce before they end up shyt creek without a paddle as they will be worse off expecially if a cliff edge no deal brexit happens.

Agricola

There's no going back for them now though. It would be a monumental humiliation for the Tories to suddenly concede defeat and would mean oblivion at the soon to follow election. Nope, they are gonna stay on this sinking ship, right to the bottom. Arm in arm with Arlene Foster!

Avatar MIA

Agricola wrote: »

There's no going back for them now though. It would be a monumental humiliation for the Tories to suddenly concede defeat and would mean oblivion at the soon to follow election. Nope, they are gonna stay on this sinking ship, right to the bottom. Arm in arm with Arlene Foster!

RULE BRITANNIA, BRITANNIA RULES THE WAVES

It's terrible to have dropped so far, it's hard to take. Mother Russia had a similar fall and aren't taking it well either.

Will they go for a second referendum once the final Deal/No Deal is finalised? I don't think the British psyche is up to it. They laughed at the Irish and others going for a second referendum. It looks like they'd rather sink beneath the aforementioned waves rather than have the stiff upper lip quiver.

dr.fuzzenstein

super_furry wrote: »

The Sun is scum and anyone who reads it on a regular basis is an idiot.

Most of the people I knew who read the Sun only read the sports pages and ignored anything else. It is such obvious trolling and baiting. Of course, just like the flat earth theory, there will always be trolls and morons who take that sh*te seriously, either out of sheer stupidity, or they're quarehogs and kranks.
Of course they could be worse. They could read the Daily Mail.