JFK Files

Cheerful Spring

Charmeleon wrote: »

A bullet fragment hit the windscreen.

In this case it would not be possible Oswald fired the first shot. A behind shot would cause an entry wound at the back of the President head. A shot from the front likely hit the president motorcade windscreen, came through and hit Kennedy.

In the new release the surgeon general said there was a bullet hole in the windscreen of the car. The bullet hole on his throat was an entry and not an exit wound.

Cheerful Spring

tomwaterford wrote: »

6 - 8 seconds is a bit of false info....in that he only had to reload twice In that time and refind the target??

He had to aim three times. And reload two more times you're correct this was the test. It took them 19 seconds, not 6 or 8 seconds. So there likely was more shooters placed to kill Kennedy

tomwaterford

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

He had to aim three times. And reload two more times you're correct this was the test. It took them 19 seconds, not 6 or 8 seconds. So there likely was more shooters placed to kill Kennedy

He only had to aim twice in that time??

Your clock is starting at the first shot? (he had already aimed by then)

Whiplash85

tomwaterford wrote: »

The fact the bullets involved in the shooting came from the rifle is just a coincidence?

There is no evidence that the bullets came from that rifle.

pitifulgod

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

You complaining it amateurish even though he died after, what?

Still not a guarantee that such an injury would kill him. Pretty simple to understand...

Cheerful Spring

pitifulgod wrote: »

Still not a guarantee that such an injury would kill him. Pretty simple to understand...

It depends on the calibre of bullet and damage it does. I have not looked at the make and model of gun used by Ruby, but a mobster probably knows his guns.. And getting up close to Oswald he had a better chance of killing him. He came in from the side so nobody would catch him coming in. He got off a shot before the officers could react.

Cheerful Spring

Charmeleon wrote: »

One guy in this video does it in less than five seconds, none of the participants had the months of practice Oswald had, most only had a few hours with the rifle. Marina Oswald said Lee spent hours and hours practising with the gun at home on a regular basis.

Most guys got two hits in under six seconds, even though they knew they were on a timer for the fastest shooting, Oswald probably didn’t know if he was going to fire two or more bullets and certainly was more concerned with aiming rather than beating a clock.
https://youtu.be/WovyEqfR8Hg

Out of 37 shots fired 17 was discounted over trouble with the weapon. I love how CBS avoided telling us the overall accuracy of the shots altogether from all the participants and just concentrated on just time. How many of the 20 shots hit the target? People forget trees blocked part of Oswald view.. Oswald was successful 2 times and missed 1 time While it looks like Oswald could have shoot Kennedy in six seconds We can't ignore the people seem to able to bolt the weapon no problem in fast time. However the surgeon general said the first wound was an entry wound not an exit wound. Oswald would have to be wizard to have the ability to turn a bullet around and move in the opposite direction.

Tipsy McSwagger

Here's a video of how easy it is to get off the 3 shots in less than 8 seconds. One guy does it in 2.6 and an 89 year old dry fires in 7.2.

https://youtu.be/LcjKYBccoqs

Charmeleon

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Out of 37 shots fired 17 was discounted over trouble with the weapon. I love how CBS avoided telling us the overall accuracy of the shots altogether from all the participants and just concentrated on just time. How many of the 20 shots hit the target? People forget trees blocked part of Oswald view.. Oswald was successful 2 times and missed 1 time While it looks like Oswald could have shoot Kennedy in six seconds We can't ignore the people seem to able to bolt the weapon no problem in fast time. However the surgeon general said the first wound was an entry wound not an exit wound. Oswald would have to be wizard to have the ability to turn a bullet around and move in the opposite direction.

The first wound was an entry wound, how could it possibly be anything else? In this world at least, you can’t have an exit wound that occurs before an entry wound.
They didn’t know there was an exit wound though, the trachaeotomy carried out in Parklands Hospital was cut through the exit wound. They didn’t have access to the clothing either, the shirt and tie would have shown the location of the exit wound. Since they couldn’t find the bullet in x-rays they assumed it worked its way out during CPR.

Tipsy McSwagger

Funny thing is I believed in a conspiracy for years. All it took was one photo of the inside of the limo to turn me. In the movie JFK the famous back and to the left Court scene had the 2 guys sitting directly in front of each other and on the same level as each other. In reality Connolly was in a bucket seat so lower down and to the right of JFK. This position makes it clear there was no magic bullet and it was a straight line trajectory that the bullet took.

Cheerful Spring

Charmeleon wrote: »

The first wound was an entry wound, how could it possibly be anything else? In this world at least, you can’t have an exit wound that occurs before an entry wound.
They didn’t know there was an exit wound though, the trachaeotomy carried out in Parklands Hospital was cut through the exit wound. They didn’t have access to the clothing either, the shirt and tie would have shown the location of the exit wound. Since they couldn’t find the bullet in x-rays they assumed it worked its way out during CPR.

According to Surgeon General the first bullet entered the President’s throat below the adams apple. This would rule out a shot from Texas School book Depository, least for the first shot. The second shot. The Warren Commission had to create the delusion , the so called magic bullet to find Oswald guilty.

Arthur Daley

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

According to Surgeon General the first bullet entered the President’s throat below the adams apple. This would rule out a shot from Texas School book Depository, least for the first shot. The second shot. The Warren Commission had to create the delusion , the so called magic bullet to find Oswald guilty.

Kennedy had a clean entry wound on the top of his shoulder/base of the neck? That came through as the exit wound he clutches as he emerges from behind the sign on the zapruder tape.
Thought at least that one was clear cut. The subsequent head shot just had to come from the fencing at the top of the 'grassy knoll'. Oswald had some involvement for sure but instinct just concludes for most people that there had to be 2 or possibly 3 shooters involved here and the cover ups/strange set of circumstances also lead most people to believe the warren commision conclusion on Oswald as a single shooter just doesn't smell right.

Cheerful Spring

Arthur Daley wrote: »

Kennedy had a clean entry wound on the top of his shoulder/base of the neck? That came through as the exit wound he clutches as he emerges from behind the sign on the zapruder tape.
Thought at least that one was clear cut. The subsequent head shot just had to come from the fencing at the top of the 'grassy knoll'. Oswald had some involvement for sure but instinct just concludes for most people that there had to be 2 or possibly 3 shooters involved here and the cover ups/strange set of circumstances also lead most people believe the warren commision conclusion on Oswald as a single shooter just doesn't smell right.

Dr Malcolm Perry (surgeon) and Dr Kemp Clark ( neurosurgery) Parkland Hospital both back the surgeon general report. In 1963, they said Kennedy was hit by a bullet to the throat. Made sense as you see in the Zupruder video Kennedy first reaction is to move his hands up to his throat area. Maybe there was more than 3 bullets fired?

Charmeleon

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

According to Surgeon General the first bullet entered the President’s throat below the adams apple. This would rule out a shot from Texas School book Depository, least for the first shot. The second shot. The Warren Commission had to create the delusion , the so called magic bullet to find Oswald guilty.

In his testimony he said it could have been either an entry or exit wound, that he hadn’t examined it closely as they had shallow breathing so quickly cut into the throat to insert a breathing tube. That means his opinion is of little value compared to a methodical and less rushed autopsy.

Tipsy McSwagger

Cheerful Spring

Charmeleon wrote: »

In his testimony he said it could have been either an entry or exit wound, that he hadn’t examined it closely as they had shallow breathing so quickly cut into the throat to insert a breathing tube. That means his opinion is of little value compared to a methodical and less rushed autopsy.

Dr Malcolm Perry was the surgeon trying to save Kennedy Life. They maintain the first wound was to the throat. Later autopsy i believe said the entry wound was at the back or shoulder area of Kennedy. There is a dispute about those findings as the autopsy got carried out in Washington, away from Dallas. The doctors at Parkland Hospital to my knowledge have never changed their story.

The Nal

Bit of reality here folks. This is not an exit wound. Not in a million years.

Tipsy McSwagger

That is the entry wound from the second shot fired, and while the autopsy was being carried out at Bethesda the 3 doctors could not find an exit wound. They were completely stumped and instead of a limited autopsy requested by Jackie Kennedy they ended up doing a full one to recover the bullet from the body. It was later found out that the exit wound was right where the tracheotomy incision was made in the front of the throat.

Whiplash85

The Nal wrote: »

Explain why he brought "curtain rods" to work that morning?

There is no evidence to support this claim.

The Nal

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Dr Malcolm Perry was the surgeon trying to save Kennedy Life. They maintain the first wound was to the throat.

He later said he was "naive" in assuming that a bullet could have caused the same damage in entry and exit.

You're quote mining, all thread actually. Picking a sentence or a quote out of context and basing assumptions on that.

Tipsy McSwagger

Whiplash85 wrote: »

There is evidence that Oswald didn't shoot a rifle that day as a paraffin test showed up negative. There is NO evidence that he did. It would have been a much easier shot to hit him coming up Houston approaching you as opposed to Elm and the shot getting gradually harder. An acoustics recording and several witness testimony has shown that there was one shot with a pause and 2 shots on top of each other. This feat would have been impossible with the faulty carcano rifle he was using which required the shooter to recycle the bolt which in itself distorts consistency and throws off accuracy. He landed 2 deadly shots with it.

They had this whole sequence recreated at Quantico supervised by Gunny Hathcock who is the one of the most famous US military snipers in history. He had 93 confirmed kills in Vietnam. He also had the longest recorded kill shot of 2,500 metres. They recreated the moving target, range and angle etc but none of the snipers could pull off what Oswald did. And Oswald did it with a faulty telescope and with 4 bullets. 3 shells found in the birds nest and one in the chamber of the rifle. No ammunition was found anywhere else either at his mothers house or his home. And yet we are expected to believe that he decided he had enough with 4 bullets to secure his place in history.

Below is an image of the "magic bullet". In near perfect condition despite it creating 7 entry and exit wounds. It is simply not plausible.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/CE399side.jpg/220px-CE399side.jpg

In the new release the surgeon general said there was a bullet hole in the windscreen of the car. The bullet hole on his throat was an entry and not an exit wound.

Well you can’t get nitrates on your skin from firing a rifle. This is because there is no gap between the chamber and the barrel of a rifle where gasses can escape and thus stick to skin. On the other hand there is s gap between barrel and cylinder on a revolver and Oswald had a positive result of firing a revolver recently, the one he shot Officer Tippit with.

Tipsy McSwagger

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

Here's a video of how easy it is to get off the 3 shots in less than 8 seconds. One guy does it in 2.6 and an 89 year old dry fires in 7.2.

https://youtu.be/LcjKYBccoqs

Are all of these tests not flawed, given that they're not shooting at moving targets? I'm definitely not an expert, but surely the fact that they were moving (albeit somewhat slow) would have affected shooting time?

The Nal

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

Well you can’t get nitrates on your skin from firing a rifle. This is because there is no gap between the chamber and the barrel of a rifle where gasses can escape and thus stick to skin. On the other hand there is s gap between barrel and cylinder on a revolver and Oswald had a positive result of firing a revolver recently, the one he shot Officer Tippit with.

The cartridge cases at the Tippet scene were matched to the gun Oswald was arrested with to the exclusion of all other guns.

Thats proof that he shot Tippet, not just evidence.

Deleted User wrote: »

Are all of these tests not flawed, given that they're not shooting at moving targets? I'm definitely not an expert, but surely the fact that they were moving (albeit somewhat slow) would have affected shooting time?

Course they're flawed but shows it can be done. Its more likely than not that Oswald had 10 seconds ish for the 3 shots.

Tipsy McSwagger

Deleted User wrote: »

Are all of these tests not flawed, given that they're not shooting at moving targets? I'm definitely not an expert, but surely the fact that they were moving (albeit somewhat slow) would have affected shooting time?

The conspiracy theorist’s make a big deal that the rifle used was a piece of crap and it was hard to reload. This video shows it was very easy to reload it. If you want a laugh look at Jesse Ventura pretending how hard it is to use on YouTube.

Cheerful Spring

The Nal wrote: »

He later said he was "naive" in assuming that a bullet could have caused the same damage in entry and exit.

You're quote mining, all thread actually. Picking a sentence or a quote out of context and basing assumptions on that.

First of all the post the full quote.

Right after his entrance-wound statement, Perry said, “Neither Dr. Clark nor I know how many bullets there were or where they came from.”

Right away, so many took the entrance wound at the throat to mean the shot had come from the front, not the rear, which was the Texas School Book Depository building where Lee Harvey Oswald fired out of a sixth-floor window.

For me this sounds like he was getting hassle from people and wanted to keep his mouth shut, not that he believes he was wrong the first shot was to the throat.
“I shouldn’t have said anything,” Malcolm Perry remembers today. “I was naive. I didn’t know how much trouble I could get into. I shouldn’t have surmised. If I hadn’t said that, there wouldn’t have been a conspiracy theory.”

And lastly this could be the author/news person writing filling inthe blanks, i don't think this is a quote by Perry.
The exams later showed it was an exit wound. No matter now. The conspiracy theories clutched the throat wound.

It just seems to me Malcolm Perry wanted to distance himself from conspiracy people and be left alone.

Cheerful Spring

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

The conspiracy theorist’s make a big deal that the rifle used was a piece of crap and it was hard to reload. This video shows it was very easy to reload it. If you want a laugh look at Jesse Ventura pretending how hard it is to use on YouTube.

The CBS video is a mockery because they used a better version of the Carcano rifle. They even said they had problem using the weapon 37 shots fired, and 17 shots were discounted over problems using their weapon. The other 20 shots they don't tell us how many shots hit the target? Oswald view was obscured by trees this made the shot more difficult. I not a person who thinks Oswald was innocent , i think he was just involved in a bigger plot to kill Kennedy.

Traveling to the Soviet Union was a big deal back then and he was doing it with ease, he had to know people to be allowed in. The State Department even paid for his trip back. Meeting top KGB officials sounds to me he was back channeling information. And nobody thinks it's usual he spoke Russian? Where he learn this language in America? There has been numerous stories revealed by highly credible people Oswald was a government paid agent. Even friends of Oswald had government agency ties.

The Nal

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

I not a person who thinks Oswald was innocent , i think he was just involved in a bigger plot to kill Kennedy.

The issue there is that there isn't a shred of evidence to suggest that.

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Traveling to the Soviet Union was a big deal back then and he was doing it with ease, he had to know people to be allowed in.

Thats simply not true. Other American defectors went there too easily enough

tigger123

If certain shadowy elements did want to get rid of Kennedy, a public assisantion is an incredibly clumsy and haphazard way to do it. It would be much easier and more convenient to organise a car accident, or plane crash or whatever. No witnesses, no recorded footage, no fall guy. Nothing.

It was also an open secret in Washington about his extra marital affairs. He was a matter of months from beginning his re-election campaign. If you wanted rid of him its much simpler to destroy his reputation with the US electorate and have him drift into history.

Oswald did it.

Cheerful Spring

The Nal wrote: »

The cartridge cases at the Tippet scene were matched to the gun Oswald was arrested with to the exclusion of all other guns.

Thats proof that he shot Tippet, not just evidence.



Course they're flawed but shows it can be done. Its more likely than not that Oswald had 10 seconds ish for the 3 shots.

Tippet it alleged was part of the conspiracy. Tippet was in area he was not meant to be in and alone. If he was on duty he would have a partner in the car with him. And how was he able to identify Oswald within hours. This is the fastest identification ever. Oswald may have realized he was there to take him out and killed him.

Of course it could be just an officer in the wrong place who Oswald shot and killed.

Cheerful Spring

The Nal wrote: »

The issue there is that there isn't a shred of evidence to suggest that.



Thats simply not true. Other American defectors went there too easily enough

There is evidence, but you prefer to not believe it. The CIA former chief historian would know more than you me or anyone on this board. And he is on record there was a conspiracy by the CIA to hide information from the Warren Commission. And he had seen documents showing Oswald was a paid government agent.