ASTI Ballot results **SEE MOD ANNOUNCEMENT IN LAST POST***

Sir123

ASISEEIT wrote: »

I have read the last few pages of this thread and i think the anger makes a lot of sense. At times i havent bothered with Asti because of its grand old duke of york syndrome. However the truth is withouth thr asti things would be worse. Much worse
The Asti is the only vechicle for stopping more ****.
As for those who jumped ship to other unions i know that ICTU is investigating. Has that investigation concluded ? Yes,this is ireland where we only pursue low level crime but im going to remain hopeful that we will get the right outcome
While a lot of the same posters post here many many more look at this thread. Hundreds more

You're absolutely right Asiseeit. I also agree that we'd be shoved to the ground completely if we had no union whatsoever. We would have no terms and conditions at all, not that they're anything to get excited about at the moment, but we'd be left out to dry entirely. The government hates teachers and it's a job that always needs to be protected by its members.

I've a feeling ICTU are going to shove this one under the carpet. When have they ever been good for teachers? Don't you know they were delighted the minute members fled to TUI. The whole thing sickens me. So much wrong being done.

I actually think it would be in teachers' best interest, across all three unions, if we left ICTU. To be complicit in a permanent pension levy to name a few, no thanks.

Nellieelephant

ICTU need to come back with the answer, would I be correct in saying everyone knows at least one person that jumped ship? The figures are there. If they cannot sanction TUI for this basic trade union agreement we certainly need to leave- How much does the ASTI pay ICTU?

judeboy101

Nellieelephant wrote: »

ICTU need to come back with the answer, would I be correct in saying everyone knows at least one person that jumped ship? The figures are there. If they cannot sanction TUI for this basic trade union agreement we certainly need to leave- How much does the ASTI pay ICTU?

Ictu won't do diddly, Asti a constant embarrassment to their sheparding of the rest of their union sheep. I know 8 in my school all bold as brass about it.

Nellieelephant

Well then we need to go above them to ETUC. That rule is the foundation of all of the trade unions- more than a gentleman’s agreement. Oh the days of the honest man! 3 turncoats in my school.

amacca

Nellieelephant wrote: »

Well then we need to go above them to ETUC. That rule is the foundation of all of the trade unions- more than a gentleman’s agreement. Oh the days of the honest man! 3 turncoats in my school.

Less and less people have a spine or a word (the two being intimately connected) these days I find.

Out of curiosity what would the possible sanctions on the TUI be as i presume the worst would happen to the new members is expulsion.

sitstill

There were 10 teachers in my school who moved to TUI and every new teacher over the past 2 years has also gone to TUI with the result that ASTI is very much now in the minority.

mtoutlemonde

sitstill wrote: »

There were 10 teachers in my school who moved to TUI and every new teacher over the past 2 years has also gone to TUI with the result that ASTI is very much now in the minority.

They were doing Croke Park hours? I presume not. In my old place, there were a lot of turncoats including management. They were part of TUI but taking the benefits of no Croke Park hours from the ASTI. This situation should not have arisen - it makes the call for a united union for second level teachers only. I hope the day comes when they come slithering back and turned away from ASTI. What happens when a ASTI school has many turncoats and a problem occurs - have they got TUI representation?

ASISEEIT

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

They were doing Croke Park hours? I presume not. In my old place, there were a lot of turncoats including management. They were part of TUI but taking the benefits of no Croke Park hours from the ASTI. This situation should not have arisen - it makes the call for a united union for second level teachers only. I hope the day comes when they come slithering back and turned away from ASTI. What happens when a ASTI school has many turncoats and a problem occurs - have they got TUI representation?

Id be against one union as the TUI have a higher spineless rate than ourselves. Best to stay on our own.
If ICTU turn up nothing in investigation we should leave ICTU

sitstill

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

They were doing Croke Park hours? I presume not. In my old place, there were a lot of turncoats including management. They were part of TUI but taking the benefits of no Croke Park hours from the ASTI. This situation should not have arisen - it makes the call for a united union for second level teachers only. I hope the day comes when they come slithering back and turned away from ASTI. What happens when a ASTI school has many turncoats and a problem occurs - have they got TUI representation?

My school is a dual union school so there had always been a mix of the two but ASTI had traditionally been the bigger one. We didn't have any CP hours last year in the school, PT meetings were during school hours etc so the people who switched effectively got to have their cake and eat it.

evolving_doors

Just wondering... how can the ASTI prove that someone switched unions ,apart from hearsay.

ASISEEIT

evolving_doors wrote: »

Just wondering... how can the ASTI prove that someone switched unions ,apart from hearsay.

The TUI will be asked for membership rolls and Im sure lots of data flowing from asti branches and schools

evolving_doors

ASISEEIT wrote: »

The TUI will be asked for membership rolls and Im sure lots of data flowing from asti branches and schools

For data protection wouldn't they have to get the permission of the person before releasing it to a third party?

mtoutlemonde

ASISEEIT wrote: »

Id be against one union as the TUI have a higher spineless rate than ourselves. Best to stay on our own.
If ICTU turn up nothing in investigation we should leave ICTU

+1 on TUI being spineless. The government shout jump and the TUI say how high!! My point that all second level teachers are in the one union as it stands, the TUI represents many people who are making decisions in areas that will never concern them. I wasn't aware there was an ICTU investigation. Do you know when findings should be published??

feardeas

evolving_doors wrote:

For data protection wouldn't they have to get the permission of the person before releasing it to a third party?

I think the law is very clear and data is very much in the news at the minute plus the new regulations are onerous.

joebloggs32

evolving_doors wrote: »

For data protection wouldn't they have to get the permission of the person before releasing it to a third party?

Correct

Alqua

evolving_doors wrote: »

For data protection wouldn't they have to get the permission of the person before releasing it to a third party?

Isn't it a bit (very) daft that switching unions during a dispute is 'not allowed', yet there are absolutely no repercussions for doing so? Can't the unions be forced to cough up the data in this case?

evolving_doors

Alqua wrote: »

Isn't it a bit (very) daft that switching unions during a dispute is 'not allowed', yet there are absolutely no repercussions for doing so? Can't the unions be forced to cough up the data in this case?

I'm sure there would be more to it than just 'coughing up the data'.
It's not like the ICTU would coming knocking on the TUI's door asking for a list of all their members and they willingly hand it over.
Perhaps all union members details are registered with ICTU so there wouldn't be an issue.

Maybe a way around it is with a matching software where two lists are uploaded and compared and it just returns similar name hits but doesn't actually reveal any individual names.

evolving_doors

Alqua wrote: »

Isn't it a bit (very) daft that switching unions during a dispute is 'not allowed', yet there are absolutely no repercussions for doing so? Can't the unions be forced to cough up the data in this case?

I'd say the TUI will just receive a fine awarded to the ASTI and that'll be that.

Alqua

evolving_doors wrote: »

I'd say the TUI will just receive a fine awarded to the ASTI and that'll be that.

Frustrating!

salonfire

Sir123 wrote: »

Intermittent and continuous strikes are the only way. The schedule needs to become disrupted. Let's go and get it passed at convention, and make sure it happens. We're living in the 21st century and teachers, who are supposed to be professionals, barely have a living wage, those that live on part-time hours and those on lower pay especially. It's a disgrace.

Why does this false narrative continue to exist among teachers?

Post 2011 teachers having starting salaries that are among the highest of all graduate salaries, and rise to significantly above the average industrial wage in Ireland.

It is not "barely a living wage"

salonfire

Sir123 wrote: »

I actually think it would be in teachers' best interest, across all three unions, if we left ICTU. To be complicit in a permanent pension levy to name a few, no thanks.

The demographics of Ireland is changing in the next few years where there will be 1:2 workers:pensioners as opposed to 1:5 today.

This is a huge additional burden on the State's finances.

How to you suggest this increase in current expenditure is paid for? Or are you looking to shift the cost to someone else?

evolving_doors

salonfire wrote: »

Why does this false narrative continue to exist among teachers?

Post 2011 teachers having starting salaries that are among the highest of all graduate salaries, and rise to significantly above the average industrial wage in Ireland.

It is not "barely a living wage"

Because for the majority of teachers starting out.... they don't actually get 'the starting salary'.

ASISEEIT

salonfire wrote: »

The demographics of Ireland is changing in the next few years where there will be 1:2 workers:pensioners as opposed to 1:5 today.

This is a huge additional burden on the State's finances.

How to you suggest this increase in current expenditure is paid for? Or are you looking to shift the cost to someone else?

I have a degree in History how the **** should I know? I doubt your statistic. Other factors will come into play-people will retire later. New entrants hardly have any pension. Id say all citizens will be forced to put into a pension earlier instead of 20 year olds driving cars and going to spain twice a year.
Anyway important thing is we had 30-40 billion tio bail out the bankers for they like the poor will always be with us.
You cant turn a corner without running into an eastern European anyway so id say the demographics will be better!

feardeas

ASISEEIT wrote:

I have a degree in History how the **** should I know? I doubt your statistic. Other factors will come into play-people will retire later. New entrants hardly have any pension. Id say all citizens will be forced to put into a pension earlier instead of 20 year olds driving cars and going to spain twice a year. Anyway important thing is we had 30-40 billion tio bail out the bankers for they like the poor will always be with us. You cant turn a corner without running into an eastern European anyway so id say the demographics will be better!

On every conceivable level words fail me. Completely and utterly fail me.

ASISEEIT

Sorry i should have added that im being tongue in cheek. Pension debate belongs in another thread. Im pro immigrant incase im accussed of Anything there.

salonfire

evolving_doors wrote: »

Because for the majority of teachers starting out.... they don't actually get 'the starting salary'.

So why are the issues getting conflated in the union spin?

They are using examples of struggling part time teachers as leverage to claim for pay hikes.

If the problem is the fractured nature of job offers, then the target should be at the schools as employers. Not the minister and certainly not the taxpayer.

The minister does not hire teachers. Still though, he will be in the firing line.

salonfire

ASISEEIT wrote: »

I have a degree in History how the **** should I know? I doubt your statistic. Other factors will come into play-people will retire later. New entrants hardly have any pension. Id say all citizens will be forced to put into a pension earlier instead of 20 year olds driving cars and going to spain twice a year.
Anyway important thing is we had 30-40 billion tio bail out the bankers for they like the poor will always be with us.
You cant turn a corner without running into an eastern European anyway so id say the demographics will be better!

You're correct, everyone will be auto-enrolled in a pension from 2020 onwards. Everyone will be paying more for their pension (which for the vast majority of us, is not even guaranteed). The changing demographic comes at a cost if you want to retain the benefit you signed up to. Teachers cannot expect someone else to pick up the tab while their benefits remain the same.

I am glad the banks were bailed out and I have no doubt you are too. The savings I had in them were saved, thanks to the bailout.

Long-term, it is looking likely the State will profit from AIB and BOI, through dividends and eventual sell-off.

Chilli Con Kearney

salonfire wrote: »

So why are the issues getting conflated in the union spin?

They are using examples of struggling part time teachers as leverage to claim for pay hikes.

If the problem is the fractured nature of job offers, then the target should be at the schools as employers. Not the minister and certainly not the taxpayer.

The minister does not hire teachers. Still though, he will be in the firing line.

Good fella. This post is one of those dangerous posts or comments I see/hear all the time.

The trouble with a little information is that people misconstrue it as knowledge, thinking that they 'get' it.

You can pipe on whatever way you like, but the hard reality is that many of the new teaching jobs are not full time and so are a fraction of the starting salary. Which I might add, is the new lesser/lower paid salary. That's the reality behind the blurb from the minister and department.

evolving_doors

salonfire wrote: »

You're correct, everyone will be auto-enrolled in a pension from 2020 onwards. Everyone will be paying more for their pension (which for the vast majority of us, is not even guaranteed). The changing demographic comes at a cost if you want to retain the benefit you signed up to. Teachers cannot expect someone else to pick up the tab while their benefits remain the same.

I am glad the banks were bailed out and I have no doubt you are too. The savings I had in them were saved, thanks to the bailout.

Long-term, it is looking likely the State will profit from AIB and BOI, through dividends and eventual sell-off.

Salonfire If you persist in imparting misinformation it'll be counted as flaming.

Mod

salonfire

I can't edit my post now. I meant benefits of existing teachers staying the same.

I am of course aware that post 2013 appointees have a lesser pension scheme.