Discovery - Timeline, continuity and other canonical issues [** SPOILERS **]

CramCycle

Optimus Prime wrote: »

I dont want to get into a debate over canon issues, i did state many times in my post that was just my opinion on it. I think its pretty obvious from looking at the show that for something thats set between Enterprise and TOS its pretty out of place not just technology wise, but the morality of the crew.

There have been federation ships with very dubious morals before and their will be again. Holding the enterprise up as, all ships and crews are too this standard is more unbelievable than anything else.

The only issue so far canon wise,is the uniforms. So long as, should the show lasts for a few years, they start to merge the TOS clothing with the Discovery uniform, so you can see a blend into the uniforms as we knew them

I think its a case of accept it and enjoy it, i Personally.. just wish they had of kept it more consistent with the other shows. Especially the klingons for me too to be honest. They are just so... different... the look, the ships, if they didnt make those drastic changes i dont think anyone would be debating stuff like holodecks or mind melds, id accept them a lot easier.

Klingons have done it before, they could have done it again.

If you simply google trek inconsistencies for any of the series, they are numerous and just as important as these ones.

Evade

pixelburp wrote: »

And equally, the Borg are more than just the technology; their presence and technological prowess weren't in of themselves what shocked or made Picard & pals nervous. It feels like quibbling over minutiae that somehow ANY kind of transhumanism is instantly equivalent to Borg and ... what, contradicts 'Q Who' for some reason?

The Borg are more than their tech but their advanced biological and technological interface is one of their hallmarks compared to the Federation's most advanced interface the VISOR. Having a cyborg, as opposed to someone with a VISOR like implant, as a member of the Discovery's crew is a contradiction.

CramCycle wrote: »

The only issue so far canon wise,is the uniforms. So long as, should the show lasts for a few years, they start to merge the TOS clothing with the Discovery uniform, so you can see a blend into the uniforms as we knew them

The ubiquity of holograms is another very obvious one. The uniforms don't really bother me that much since Starfleet seems to change them on a fairly regular basis anyway

Goodshape

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

It also feels different in tone, has a very different Starfleet and Vulcan (more in keeping with the JJ films), and just does not appear to line up with events that are to happen in TOS less than 10 years from now.

We haven't really seen Starfleet in Discovery yet though? Just a couple of Admirals. Come to think of it, we didn't see much of Starfleet in TOS either. The occasional crazy / broken-down starship captain showed up (not that out of line with Lorca!), but they didn't really dig deep into the workings of Starfleet or the Federation.

The tone of the show itself is different because they're different people, different ship, different mission. (And being made 50 years apart).

I don't see that the Vulcans are that different either.

CramCycle wrote: »

If you simply google trek inconsistencies for any of the series, they are numerous and just as important as these ones.

Actually I did that recently and found this video, which is quite amusing.

pixelburp

Evade wrote: »

The Borg are more than their tech but their advanced biological and technological interface is one of their hallmarks compared to the Federation's most advanced interface the VISOR. Having a cyborg, as opposed to someone with a VISOR like implant, as a member of the Discovery's crew is a contradiction.

And I don't believe it is, for all the reasons outlined, I think the canon isn't shattered by transhumanism in TOS era; but we're clearly going round & round in circles; so I guess we'll agree to disagree.

Evade wrote: »

The ubiquity of holograms is another very obvious one. The uniforms don't really bother me that much since Starfleet seems to change them on a fairly regular basis anyway

And therein lies the rub really: by your own admission you have a personal head canon that constitutes redlines for continuity that differ to other peoples'. *shrug* if the continuity is already THAT flexible, why worry too much if Discovery is just continuing the same trend?

Evade

pixelburp wrote: »

And therein lies the rub really: by your own admission you have a personal head canon that constitutes redlines for continuity that differ to other peoples'. *shrug* if the continuity is already THAT flexible, why worry too much if Discovery is just continuing the same trend?

It's a uniform not some piece of anachronistic technology.

CramCycle

Evade wrote: »

The Borg are more than their tech but their advanced biological and technological interface is one of their hallmarks compared to the Federation's most advanced interface the VISOR. Having a cyborg, as opposed to someone with a VISOR like implant, as a member of the Discovery's crew is a contradiction.

The most advanced we had seen, it does not mean the most advanced available. Geordis visor could do a ton of things when the story needed it but there is nothing to say half the ship didn't have something similar that was not visible. Maybe the enterprise just had a low crew number with such issues.

The ubiquity of holograms is another very obvious one. The uniforms don't really bother me that much since Starfleet seems to change them on a fairly regular basis anyway

But at some point, soon, they will have to have the same ones as the TOS if we go by the canon route, although TNG had several episodes where people where walking around in the background with old kit so maybe it makes no difference.

Maybe they will make it that military ships have that uniform and exploration ships have the TOS one, and we meet other Federation ships with the old school uniform.

Optimus Prime

The medical staff on discovery wear uniforms that remind me of kirks from star trek the motion picture, i know kirks had more grey in it but they look very similiar.

PhiloCypher

Optimus Prime wrote: »

I dont want to get into a debate over canon issues, i did state many times in my post that was just my opinion on it. I think its pretty obvious from looking at the show that for something thats set between Enterprise and TOS its pretty out of place not just technology wise, but the morality of the crew.

I think its a case of accept it and enjoy it, i Personally.. just wish they had of kept it more consistent with the other shows. Especially the klingons for me too to be honest. They are just so... different... the look, the ships, if they didnt make those drastic changes i dont think anyone would be debating stuff like holodecks or mind melds, id accept them a lot easier.

I just cant forgive the klingons.. for the death of my klingons. :pac:

Idk aside from Lorca and Landry they seem ok to me.

PhiloCypher

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

It also feels different in tone, has a very different Starfleet and Vulcan (more in keeping with the JJ films), and just does not appear to line up with events that are to happen in TOS less than 10 years from now.

The depictions Starfleet and Vulcan are within the parameters set in previous shows as far as I can see .

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Discovery, taken as a stand-alone show, isn't bad for the most part. I still don't like Burnham, and most of the crew are throwaways (almost no effort to develop anyone outside the top 4/5 characters), but I still don't see it as "prime" Star Trek after what, 8 episodes now.

As opposed to the dozen or so we knew intimately after 8 episodes of the other series ?

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

What I find bemusing though is how personally some fans are taking criticism of the show, but I suppose that's the online era we live in too.

Dont worry we find it amusing how personally you take your canon too 😊

pixelburp

Yeah, I mean in comparison, how well did we know the TNG crew by the halfway point? Sure IIRC, Diane Crosby left precisely because her part was muck, and many of the crew never really evolved beyond paperthin or generic love plots (step forward Troi, Crusher, and bizarrely LeForge). The writers clearly preferred Data and Worf . There's definitely a slant towards Burnham and Lorca this time, but no more than Picard and Riker.

Evade

CramCycle wrote: »

The most advanced we had seen, it does not mean the most advanced available. Geordis visor could do a ton of things when the story needed it but there is nothing to say half the ship didn't have something similar that was not visible. Maybe the enterprise just had a low crew number with such issues.

Again, I have no real problem with the minor implants it's the level of augmentation Airiam appears to have that I find anachronistic.

CramCycle wrote: »

But at some point, soon, they will have to have the same ones as the TOS if we go by the canon route, although TNG had several episodes where people where walking around in the background with old kit so maybe it makes no difference.

Maybe they will make it that military ships have that uniform and exploration ships have the TOS one, and we meet other Federation ships with the old school uniform.

Strictly speaking they should have the uniforms seen in the Cage by now but as you pointed out there's a precedent for Starfleet having multiple, four by my count (not counting flag officers and dress uniforms), uniforms issued at the one time. The Shenzhou had the same, or very similar, uniforms as Discovery and it wasn't a warship.

CramCycle

Evade wrote: »

Again, I have no real problem with the minor implants it's the level of augmentation Airiam appears to have that I find anachronistic.

I suppose the key word is appearance. Maybe her augments actually are minor or were a treatment for some illness/injury. I realise I am making excuses, and am probably not right but so far its not enough to annoy me and I love Trek.

The_Valeyard

Anyone else really enjoying the music in each episode. Think ill buy the soundtrack.

Watched a scene from Nemesis and lo and behold, they've holographic technologies for communication.

Evade

Deleted User wrote: »

Watched a scene from Nemesis and lo and behold, they've holographic technologies for communication.

Isn't that Reman technology? But even if it's not it's in the late 24th century, after DS9 made a big deal of introducing it. That's the whole continuity issue.

But there's always continuity issues. Remember in Enterprise there was this attack on Earth by an alien race that had never been mentioned previously.

I mean, you'd think an attack killing 7 million people would be important enough to be written into the history.

Or maybe it's that each Trek franchise changes the continuity in different ways.

Evade

Deleted User wrote: »

But there's always continuity issues. Remember in Enterprise there was this attack on Earth by an alien race that had never been mentioned previously.

I mean, you'd think an attack killing 7 million people would be important enough to be written into the history.

Or maybe it's that each Trek franchise changes the continuity in different ways.

Well, that's the problem with prequels. Any major event has to be conveniently forgotten about by the people in the in universe future. But DS9 explicitly stated holocommunicators were new and TNG explicitly stated that holodecks, or at least holodecks on starships, were a new. That's where the inconsistency is.

Just to be really pedantic, in either Paradise Lost or Homefront there's a line that says something like there hasn't been an attack on Earth over 200 years implying there was an attack on Earth before that. The Xindi attack was 220 years before that episode of DS9.

Evade

Evade wrote: »

Well, that's the problem with prequels. Any major event has to be conveniently forgotten about by the people in the in universe future. But DS9 explicitly stated holocommunicators were new and TNG explicitly stated that holodecks, or at least holodecks on starships, were a new. That's where the inconsistency is.

Just to be really pedantic, in either Paradise Lost or Homefront there's a line that says something like there hasn't been an attack on Earth over 200 years implying there was an attack on Earth before that. The Xindi attack was 220 years before that episode of DS9.

Holodecks were mentioned and seen in Enterprise though. Enterprise first season is 2151 - 2152, which is when the holodecks were first introduced there. TNG is set in 2300. That's .. what ... 200 years that they were about. I wouldn't call that exactly "new".

Evade

Deleted User wrote: »

Holodecks were mentioned and seen in Enterprise though. Enterprise first season is 2151 - 2152, which is when the holodecks were first introduced there. TNG is set in 2300. That's .. what ... 200 years that they were about. I wouldn't call that exactly "new".

Sorry, I should have written Federation starship. I thought might be understood since we're talking about anachronistic Federation/Starfleet technologies.

Anyway - Discovery is a great show. And already among the best of the Trek franchises, definitely second to DS9 anyway.

Antar Bolaeisk

Evade wrote: »

Sorry, I should have written Federation starship. I thought might be understood since we're talking about anachronistic Federation/Starfleet technologies.

Discovery is a scientific research vessel, maybe it's a prototype.

Evade

Antar Bolaeisk wrote: »

Discovery is a scientific research vessel, maybe it's a prototype.

That doesn't explain the holocommunicators on the other ships.

FutureGuy

I have no problem then retconning technology in Discovery. We already have VR, tablet computers, scanners and translators, so the aesthetics look very dated already, even compared with TNG. Yes it goes against canon but Enterprise did the same.

Also, we needed an update to the ships. The Good guy ships maintain a classic federation style and that's great.

The Klingon ships, on the other hand, is something that concerns me but I fully expect this to be resolved/explained in the coming season. The ships look nothing like Klingon ships apart from Kor's Sarcophagus ship and look completely different from the style in Enterprise.

However, there could be a great reason. The Klingon houses fragmented after Enterprise and would certainly have reverted to their own style of ships. We now have the Klingons unifying under Kor so the chances of them building ships that are more like TOS over the next few years is high. The ships could look like the Sarcophagus ships which is currently the flagship of the Klingons. They may also just decide to go back to what the style was in Enterprise. At the time that the Sarcophagus ship was part of the Empire, that could be the main style at the time.

The D7 we saw may have been the D7 of house Mokai. The new D7 under Kor may be more what we are used to in TOS, Enterprise and a few thousand years ago.

Greyjoy

Deleted User wrote: »

But there's always continuity issues. Remember in Enterprise there was this attack on Earth by an alien race that had never been mentioned previously.

I mean, you'd think an attack killing 7 million people would be important enough to be written into the history.

Or maybe it's that each Trek franchise changes the continuity in different ways.

But the Xindi attack came about because of the "temporal cold war". They were literally rewriting the timeline which is why they could handwave away any inconsistencies. I'm not a fan of that tactic, it lets writers get very lazy but at least it's an explanation.

The_Valeyard

Greyjoy wrote: »

But the Xindi attack came about because of the "temporal cold war". They were literally rewriting the timeline which is why they could handwave away any inconsistencies. I'm not a fan of that tactic, it lets writers get very lazy but at least it's an explanation.

Time can be rewritten. I should know.

suffering golfer

Because of the whole mirror universe thing they just had in Discovery, I went back and watched The Tholian Web episode aND found this nuggett... Chevoz asked spock about was there ever any mutiny on a starship before.... spock said "absolutely no record of such an occurrence".

What about your sister then Spock?? Did she not count?

Oh the irony...

seamus

I'm gonna retcon it.

Spock didn't say it didn't happen. He said "no record".

If Burnham was assigned to Discovery and Discovery's existence became classified (which seems likely), then it's plausible that all record of Burnham's mutiny could also be classified. Instead records may list her lost with the Shenzhou or lost on another later mission.

Either way, Spock would be aware of the incident and may even be slightly ashamed of it. But ensign Chekov would probably not be aware of it. So he wouldn't be lying by saying "absolutely no record", he's just stretching the truth a bit

silverharp

that episode took the series up a couple of notches, only let down by the new space Nazis being a bit too ridiculous

suffering golfer

seamus wrote: »

I'm gonna retcon it.

Spock didn't say it didn't happen. He said "no record".

If Burnham was assigned to Discovery and Discovery's existence became classified (which seems likely), then it's plausible that all record of Burnham's mutiny could also be classified. Instead records may list her lost with the Shenzhou or lost on another later mission.

Either way, Spock would be aware of the incident and may even be slightly ashamed of it. But ensign Chekov would probably not be aware of it. So he wouldn't be lying by saying "absolutely no record", he's just stretching the truth a bit

Nice try, only one problem, the mutiny is seen to have caused the war with the kinglons and she had a trial and imprisoned because of it. Impossible for it to be classified or there would be no records.

My own recon take would be, she will do something that will caused the whole incident to be seen in a new light and she will be absolved of the incident. I never really understood how she caused the war anyway, didn't the kinglons fire the 1st shot?

Edit: don't think Spock can feel ashamed or stretch the truth... he was a Vulcan after all.

seamus

suffering golfer wrote: »

I never really understood how she caused the war anyway, didn't the kinglons fire the 1st shot?

This was a clever (and realistic) plot device on the part of the writers. She attempted a mutiny in the middle of a tense meeting with the Klingons. A huge battle ensues, so she gets blamed. This is very realistic IMO. We know that the Klingons were basically going to open fire anyway, but the federation doesn't know that.

The federation doesn't understand that "we come in peace" could anger the Klingons. They believe that if the Klingons opened fire, it's because they felt there was a threat. Therefore the threat was Burnham and it's all her fault.

Burnham also killed T'Kuvma in anger, despite knowing that would make him a martyr. So she blames herself for the battles which happened after.

Burnham being "the traitor who caused the war" also immediately made her an outcast to everyone else, and so sets up the tone of how they deal with her.

Edit: don't think Spock can feel ashamed or stretch the truth... he was a Vulcan after all.

Half-Vulcan, Half-Human