Discovery - Timeline, continuity and other canonical issues [** SPOILERS **]

Goodshape

Inviere wrote: »

I'll put it this way, I feel canonically, it's a very jarring juxtaposition.

But how though? . Just a kinda feeling in your gut or something?

Thought not You've basically given the "because they told me so" answer I pre-empted above.

Well I did a little bit more than that, pointing out some things which I don't think preclude it from the Prime Universe, but it's very difficult to prove a negative like this. You keep saying there are "observable reasons" why you think it's JJ-verse, but what are those?

All I'm saying is that there aren't observable reasons. It's difficult to list things which don't exist.

There's no burden of proof on anybody here, it's a discussion with both equal sides.

Yeah I get that . I'm just interested to know what excludes this show from being in the same world as the others – which is all the more interesting as you seemingly don't have any issue with the visual/tech updates.

I asked for on-screen reasons that'd convince you it's a Prime Universe show, had the writers not said so

Don't want to sound like a broken record but again, if they hadn't said it either way – and maybe if the JJ-verse didn't exist as a known option – would you even question it? Why? What have they done specifically which makes the other shows impossible?

For me, it's far more closely aligned to the JJ-verse, that it is to the Prime Universe, for various observable reasons.

But actually, maybe we can list some JJ-verse things which I think, so far, would be out of place in the world of Enterprise, Discovery, TOS, TAS, TNG, etc. –

1. Enterprise built on earth, in Iowa, which just happens to be birthplace of it's soon-to-be Captain.

2. Motor-bike rebel to flagship captain in 2 (maybe 3?) years.

3. The blindingly bright white starship bridge

4. Klingons in Into Darkness weren't really anything like Klingons in any prime timeline, Discovery included. Basically just bling-wearing heavies.

5. Budweiser on sale in bars

6. Nokia still exist and use the same ringtone they did in 2009.

7. "Hot-rod" warp nacelles

8. Starfleet creating some monstrosity of a warship and actually christening it the "USS Vengeance" for godsake. Even with ST:Discovery being all about war so far, the ship is at least designed for science.

9. Death-defying super-human blood is a thing


Discovery doesn't feel like it's in that world, imo.

368100

flaneur wrote: »

I'd love to know how they're going to explain away that "spore drive" technology didn't become mainstream. This ancient starship is making Picard's Enterprise look positively old fashioned with its primitive warp technology.

It's also the kind of stuff that the Voyager crew would have happily sold Nelix for.

Sold? They were lucky to give him away for free

ezra_

Goodshape wrote: »

But how though? . Just a kinda feeling in your gut or something?




Well I did a little bit more than that, pointing out some things which I don't think preclude it from the Prime Universe, but it's very difficult to prove a negative like this. You keep saying there are "observable reasons" why you think it's JJ-verse, but what are those?

All I'm saying is that there aren't observable reasons. It's difficult to list things which don't exist.




Yeah I get that . I'm just interested to know what excludes this show from being in the same world as the others – which is all the more interesting as you seemingly don't have any issue with the visual/tech updates.




Don't want to sound like a broken record but again, if they hadn't said it either way – and maybe if the JJ-verse didn't exist as a known option – would you even question it? Why? What have they done specifically which makes the other shows impossible?




But actually, maybe we can list some JJ-verse things which I think, so far, would be out of place in the world of Enterprise, Discovery, TOS, TAS, TNG, etc. –

1. Enterprise built on earth, in Iowa, which just happens to be birthplace of it's soon-to-be Captain.

2. Motor-bike rebel to flagship captain in 2 (maybe 3?) years.

3. The blindingly bright white starship bridge

4. Klingons in Into Darkness weren't really anything like Klingons in any prime timeline, Discovery included. Basically just bling-wearing heavies.

5. Budweiser on sale in bars

6. Nokia still exist and use the same ringtone they did in 2009.

7. "Hot-rod" warp nacelles

8. Starfleet creating some monstrosity of a warship and actually christening it the "USS Vengeance" for godsake. Even with ST:Discovery being all about war so far, the ship is at least designed for science.

9. Death-defying super-human blood is a thing


Discovery doesn't feel like it's in that world, imo.

You forgot the ability to transport to infinity

Inviere

Goodshape wrote: »

Uou keep saying there are "observable reasons" why you think it's JJ-verse, but what are those?

It's definitely not JJ-verse, I simply said it's more aligned with that universe for me, than it is the Prime Universe. To me it sits between them, as it's own timeline, albeit, more aligned to the JJ one.

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

Goodshape

Inviere wrote: »

It's definitely not JJ-verse, I simply said it's more aligned with that universe for me, than it is the Prime Universe. To me it sits between them, as it's own timeline, albeit, more aligned to the JJ one.

Well, whatever works for you

Personally I think if TOS can exist in the same universe as Wrath of Khan, then it can exist alongside Discovery too.

Inviere

Goodshape wrote: »

Well, whatever works for you

Personally I think if TOS can exist in the same universe as Wrath of Khan, then it can exist alongside Discovery too.

Wrath of Khan was a progression from TOS, so was naturally able to be quite different as a result of the passage of time.

Goodshape

Inviere wrote: »

Wrath of Khan was a progression from TOS, so was naturally able to be quite different as a result of the passage of time.

By today's standards TWOK (and TMP before it) was pretty much a soft reboot. Everything looks different. It's not like they have "pre-refit" Constitution class ships floating alongside the new Enterprise and Reliant, or a few of the old uniforms in the background. Visually, at least, it's as though TOS never existed. Even the tone and the nature of the stories they tell are wildly different.

I guess people excuse that because it's going "forward, not back" – but really, that's pretty weak sauce. They updated things because they had the budget to do so.

Inviere

Goodshape wrote: »

By today's standards TWOK (and TMP before it) was pretty much a soft reboot. Everything looks different. It's not like they have "pre-refit" Constitution class ships floating alongside the new Enterprise and Reliant, or a few of the old uniforms in the background. Visually, at least, it's as though TOS never existed. Even the tone and the nature of the stories they tell are wildly different.

I guess people excuse that because it's going "forward, not back" – but really, that's pretty weak sauce. They updated things because they had the budget to do so.

It's a combination of things in my opinion, but I'd agree, they're soft, in-universe reboots. I think it's harsh to call the progression angle "weak sauce", as you're effectively omitting the large amounts of character development that has developed up until that point. Of course writers are more able to expand and develop those characters, as we'd already gotten to know them, they'd been fleshed out, and as such, progression was not only inevitable, but actually required to prevent a staling effect.

There's also the passage of time, not only real world time, but in universe time. This allows sequel settings to introduce new tech, advancements, further developments etc, because, that's what happens in reality when time passes.

In a prequel setting, it's a bit more of a delicate act. For all its flaws, I think Enterprise managed things quite well with its flatpanel displays and so forth. I don't recall people back then calling for red blue and green flashing buttons on the bridge? Much the same as there aren't those calls now.

I'll put it to you this way, the alternate timeline created for "Yesterdays Enterprise", was far, far closer to the normal TNG Timeline, than Discovery is to the TOS timeline. And that's fine, as said, I'm enjoying the show a lot and for me it's blowing Enterprise away with tremendous ease.

pixelburp

Inviere wrote: »

Wrath of Khan was a progression from TOS, so was naturally able to be quite different as a result of the passage of time.

The Motion Picture & Wrath of Khan were two soft reboots, and the latter was not a progression of TOS in tone - no way. A sequel to an episode form TOS yes, but in execution & approach it was a very different beast to the slightly campy infusions of that original series.

And both films made major changes to the aesthetics and technologies of Trek; I daresay had the internet been around there would have been the same militant branch of fandom up in arms because the colour-coded uniforms had been swapped out for onsies, then the more blatantly militaristic uniforms of ...Khan.

And the Klingons! Holy hell, could you imagine the collective bricks sh*t during that cameo in the Motion Picture? That must have been such a shock to the system for all those fans still keeping the 60s candle burning

Inviere

pixelburp wrote: »

The Motion Picture & Wrath of Khan were two soft reboots

Oh I agree, they completely were. Luckily for us! Look at what Star Trek became as a result of TWoK!

and the latter was not a progression of TOS in tone - no way.

Interesting you mention tone, how do you feel Discovery aligns with the tone of TOS, considering they're set a mere ten years apart?

And both films made major changes to the aesthetics and technologies of Trek; I daresay had the internet been around there would have been the same militant branch of fandom up in arms because the colour-coded uniforms had been swapped out for onsies, then the more blatantly militaristic uniforms of ...Khan.

And the Klingons! Holy hell, could you imagine the collective bricks sh*t during that cameo in the Motion Picture? That must have been such a shock to the system for all those fans still keeping the 60s candle burning

Indeed

I seem to be being perceived as someone who's critical, or pessimistic toward the changes - I'm not! All I'm saying is, considering the much needed visual overhaul and raft of other changes, it would have sat so much better with longer term fans by not saying it was set in the Prime Universe. Call it what it is, which is a reboot...those fans won't be fooled anyway, so why try to take them on?

pixelburp

Inviere wrote: »

Interesting you mention tone, how do you feel Discovery aligns with the tone of TOS, considering they're set a mere ten years apart?

I don't think ANY Star Trek series has matched the tone of the original, in fact I'd argue that they have all conspired to ignore the blatant camp & nonsense that made up a large percentage of its run. There may be the excuse of them being set 100 years in the future, but it's more than that; Sci-Fi as a genre had grown-up since the 60s, when it was still seen as a predominantly juvenile genre, so Greek Gods & Space Hippies were fine. And when the silliness of it all wasn't ignored, such as in DS9's 'Trials and Tribble-ations' episode, they leaned into the inherent farce, rather than try to retcon it.

Tonally, the modern day equivalents would be shows such as Supergirl, Doctor Who or Once Upon a Time; bright bubbly shows that have their moments of deep characterisation & darkness, but live in a bloodless, blue-sky and occasionally saccharine world; and even then, there's an honesty of execution that the makers are taking it all seriously. Discovery could have gone with this approach, but I think CBS rightly judged that there simply wasn't an audience for this form of Star Trek; nor is a campy Trek where exists these days.

The groundwork was already there; DS9 forged a path by exploring the literal, ragged edges of the Federation - even if the nature of TV at the time perhaps held back the Commander Norringtons of its world from being fully-fledged terrorist analogues. TNG made a trope of the insane Admiral, bent on destruction or personal gain. The seeds were there that the world of Star Trek had moved on from simply space-swashbuckling.

So, uhhh... long-story short ha, no, Discovery's tone doesn't match the Original Series, but I don't think it matters, whether they're 10 or 10,000 years apart. The majority of Trek's lifespan has ignored that tone, moved the franchise in another direction, so this new show shouldn't be beholden to what amounted to a flippant prototype.

Inviere

pixelburp wrote: »

I don't think ANY Star Trek series has matched the tone of the original, in fact I'd argue that they have all conspired to ignore the blatant camp & nonsense that made up a large percentage of its run. There may be the excuse of them being set 100 years in the future, but it's more than that; Sci-Fi as a genre had grown-up since the 60s, when it was still seen as a predominantly juvenile genre, so Greek Gods & Space Hippies were fine. And when the silliness of it all wasn't ignored, such as in DS9's 'Trials and Tribble-ations' episode, they leaned into the inherent farce, rather than try to retcon it.

I'd very much largely agree with that. What I would say though, is TNG through the first half of Season 1 seemed quite close to TOS tonally, to its detriment too. However, why focus on the camp silliness, and not consider the concepts cemented by TOS such as humanity putting its differences aside and working for the collective good, the betterment of humanity, hell, doing the right thing. People can be quick to want to wash away TOS by judging it by what are now, hugely outdated facets, but miss the core tonal concept set by TOS.

I'd argue we shouldn't be quick to forget, that TOS had a certain child-like innocence, where exploration was a key factor in the show, learning new things, meeting new people, overcoming odds, working together, and so forth. For me, they're the key concepts I consider when talking about the tone of TOS...not the cheesy uniforms, the silly "ride off into the sunset laughing" endings, blue red and green flashing buttons, and so forth.

Tonally, the modern day equivalents would be shows such as Supergirl, Doctor Who or Once Upon a Time; bright bubbly shows that have their moments of deep characterisation & darkness, but live in a bloodless, blue-sky and occasionally saccharine world; and even then, there's an honesty of execution that the makers are taking it all seriously. Discovery could have gone with this approach, but I think CBS rightly judged that there simply wasn't an audience for this form of Star Trek; nor is a campy Trek where exists these days.

Indeed, and I'm glad they did. I think with age comes wisdom, and with that wisdom, comes that notion that Roddenberry's vision of humanity isn't very realistic or possible. I think Roddenberry's key messages may transpose to this darker vision of Trek, and I'm interested to see how they do...but a blue sky everybody likes each other situation, I don't see an audience for.

So, uhhh... long-story short ha, no, Discovery's tone doesn't match the Original Series, but I don't think it matters, whether they're 10 or 10,000 years apart. The majority of Trek's lifespan has ignored that tone, moved the franchise in another direction, so this new show shouldn't be beholden to what amounted to a flippant prototype.

As mentioned above, I think tone here is being quite blurred...it's not just camp silliness, there is more to what TOS stood for (and I say that as a not huge TOS fan, it's good in parts, borderline unwatchable in others).

Evade

I think comparing STDs visuals to TOS's is a bit misleading. TOS, not including the films, is very much an outlier with regard to sets an overall look. The TOS movies, TNG, DS9, and Voyager have a pretty consistent ship interior design scheme. That probably has a lot to do with TNG reusing a lot of movie sets and those sets being reused again by the later series.

If STD was more in line with that style I wouldn't have any gripes with it. I'm more than happy to imagine all the old TOS sets should look more like their movie counterparts and would have preferred if Relics and In a Mirror Darkly had used those instead of the TOS style. Though, there was probably no getting around Trials and Tribble-ations.

Goodshape

Evade wrote: »

I think comparing STDs visuals to TOS's is a bit misleading. TOS, not including the films, is very much an outlier with regard to sets an overall look. The TOS movies, TNG, DS9, and Voyager have a pretty consistent ship interior design scheme.

Agreed. To be honest it was more the Original Films than the Original Series that I had in my mind when I made that list of things from JJ which would be out of place in the Prime (movies+TNG...+Ent+Disco) Universe.

If we're being brutally honest, probably none of it would be all that out of place in the original series.

And I think Discovery does fit, well enough.

Though, there was probably no getting around Trials and Tribble-ations.

I can kinda remember when that episode came out. Pretty sure there was a lot of speculation around will-they / wont-they update the ship to the retconned / rebooted Enterprise or dare to suggest that TOS's Enterprise and space station would ever fit alongside the Defiant and DS9. I always had the impression that the episode was just a bit of fun.

PhiloCypher

So looking forward how do we see the season ending ? Personally I'd imagine by seasons end we'll have our answer as to why spore travel is never used in future series and the way I see it one of the following 5 things will happen to bring this about .

A) despite Burnham protestations that they should stop torturing a life form for tactical advantage , Lorca presses on , endangering the crew and it she is faced with the decision as to whether to mutiny again . We enter season 2 with a new less antagonistic captain after Lorca is removed from command (but is free to pop up as a Garth of Izeresque antagonist.)

Burnham goes over Lorcas head to starfleet command and they ban the spore drives use as the afront to federation values it is . Lorca is reprimanded but remains in command and we go into season two with a lot of tension between Burnham and the Captain.

C) Lorca has a road to Demascus moment on the use of the Spore drive with a little help from Burnham, he lies telling starfleet intelligence the Tardigrade died and without it the spore drive is useless and orders Stamets to destroy his research . Without Tardigrade and Stamets research Spore travel dies in the crib. With the conflict with the Klingons going from a hot to a cold war in Season 2 we see a less the ends justify the means Lorca .

D) Lorca pushes the Tardigrade too hard and it dies at the end of the season during an engagement with the klingons . Without the Tardigrade and with no idea where it came from in the first place the spore drive is useless and spore travel dies in the crib .

E) Lorca pushes things too far and a cascade reaction destroys the mycelial network killing spore travel in the crib.

What think yee ?

corkie

Star Trek Discovery is still Star Trek. It's just swapped idealism for realism, because that’s what we need right now

Hope and optimism remain. But this darker, more troubled Trek admits that things aren't as simple as we once liked to think

There’s been some consternation over Star Trek Discovery, Bryan Fuller and Alex Kurtzman’s new Star Trek prequel series, since it hit. It’s objectively a good show. A great one, in fact. But the debate continues over just how Star Trek it actually is. There are recognisably shaped starships, and warp drives powered by dilithium. There is a Federation of planets, eager, and optimistic to explore the universe and learn. There are Klingons, who are not fans of that Federation in the slightest bit. That’s all very Star Trek indeed. .......

Star Trek: Discovery writer insists the show does NOT contradict the Original Series
The technology will be recognisable even though they wanted to make it "cooler".

"We are wildly aware of everything that appears to be a deviation from canon. We will close out each of those issues when we close out our ten-year period and hit TOS," Akiva said at New York Comic Con.

AMKC

So I finally started to watch it. Watched 1 episode Friday night and 3 episodes last night. I have to say it has me hooked but its very different to any Star Trek before. A lot of it reminds me of Battlestar Galactica and of Starship Troopers and even some of Enterprise as well. In fact some of the things in this were also done in Enterprise. It is certainly dark. We also finally find out why the saucer section is like that and I will not say here as would not want to spoil it for anyone who has not yet seen it needless to say it has a reason its like that.
I would prefer a more optimistic show but it is a good show and very cinema like although there is some parts that look like they came out of a computer game mostly the parts where we see the ships fighting from afar . I would say for the celebs that got to go see the first two episodes in the cinema it must have been stunning looking and sounding on the big screen. The ships well the main ones anyway are done really well in it.

The_Valeyard

I do enjoy the twirly effect of the spore drive.


Which will malfunction and throw them into the futire right into the Dominion war, and a desperate Starfleet reopens the forbidden tech. With an upgraded shio, the Discovery will be used to jump behind enemy lines and destrory Jem Hadar Ketracel White facilities.

AMKC

The_Valeyard wrote: »

I do enjoy the twirly effect of the spore drive.


Which will malfunction and throw them into the futire right into the Dominion war, and a desperate Starfleet reopens the forbidden tech. With an upgraded shio, the Discovery will be used to jump behind enemy lines and destrory Jem Hadar Ketracel White facilities.

I hope your being sarcastic as that is one part I certainly do not like. I can understand the top part of the outside and inside saucer spinning but the ship doing the going all twirly is just silly. Why could they just not have used the null space in between the two saucers sections some way maybe it would fold space through the null space something like that.

The_Valeyard

That was not a D7


This beautiful ship is a D7







Ill put tonights version down to a Discovery Variant.

Evade

The_Valeyard wrote: »

That was not a D7

If only there was a something they could have used that came between the D5 class from Enterprise and the D7 class from TOS that hasn't been shown on screen before and didn't have to look like either of them.

Evade

So now what? They don't have to torture animals anymore why are they going to stop using the drive? Unless they have something happen that changes the principles behind how the drive functions they've written themselves into Voyager's Threshold where they could have gotten home with only a mild case of curable space salamander syndrome but chose not to for some reason. Granted, I think they wrote that episode out of continuity later because of how stupid it was.

FutureGuy

Evade wrote: »

So now what? They don't have to torture animals anymore why are they going to stop using the drive? Unless they have something happen that changes the principles behind how the drive functions they've written themselves into Voyager's Threshold where they could have gotten home with only a mild case of curable space salamander syndrome but chose not to for some reason. Granted, I think they wrote that episode out of continuity later because of how stupid it was.

I expected the tardigrade dilemma to end the experiment completely and confine the spore drive to the annals for failed technology and I still do. However, it seems very clear that something is not right at the end of episode 01x5 so I still think we are on a very defined path to seeing why spore drive is not everywhere in TNG.

PhiloCypher

Evade wrote: »

So now what? They don't have to torture animals anymore why are they going to stop using the drive? Unless they have something happen that changes the principles behind how the drive functions they've written themselves into Voyager's Threshold where they could have gotten home with only a mild case of curable space salamander syndrome but chose not to for some reason. Granted, I think they wrote that episode out of continuity later because of how stupid it was.

The mycelial network being destroyed by the Klingons now seems the most likely answer .

The_Valeyard

PhiloCypher wrote: »

The mycelial network being destroyed by the Klingons now seems the most likely answer .

Or its been protected by a far more powerful species.

Evade

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Or its been protected by a far more powerful species.

This guy could work

seamus

PhiloCypher wrote: »

The mycelial network being destroyed by the Klingons now seems the most likely answer .

Or becoming "poisoned" by the introduction of a non-symbiotic lifeform (humans) to the network.

Inviere

Someone put a 'real' D7 in instead of the one shown in Discovery....

Thoughts? I really like it, it gives me the instant sense of "oh shit!". That, however, might only because being a long term fan the sight of a D7 just reeks of Klingon for me.

AtomicHorror

The_Valeyard wrote: »

That was not a D7

This beautiful ship is a D7

Ill put tonights version down to a Discovery Variant.

Did we get a clear enough shot to say it's a discrepancy? The extreme close up... was there a wide shot later?