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Discovery - Timeline, continuity and other canonical issues [** SPOILERS **]

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    #92
    Evade
    Registered Users Posts: 6,756 ✭✭✭Evade


    Artificial mind melds and full on holodecks. Again I have to ask why this isn't set post Nemesis?


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    #93
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    Evade wrote: »
    Artificial mind melds and full on holodecks. Again I have to ask why this isn't set post Nemesis?

    They had similar tech in TAS, and this seems even more limited, so not sure why it's a problem.


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    #94
    368100
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,067 ✭✭✭368100


    AtomicHorror wrote: »
    They had similar tech in TAS, and this seems even more limited, so not sure why it's a problem.

    Whats TAS?


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    #95
    flaneur
    Closed Accounts Posts: 960 ✭✭✭flaneur


    It would get pretty boring with low tech though ...


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    #96
    Steve456
    Registered Users Posts: 37 ✭Steve456


    368100 wrote: »
    Whats TAS?

    Star Trek: The Animated Series


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    #97
    server down
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,613 ✭✭✭server down


    Steve456 wrote: »
    Star Trek: The Animated Series

    Let us never speak of it again.


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    #98
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users Posts: 28,791 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    So I was watching the episode 6 review on Trek yards and one of the comments had an interesting link about the possible inspiration for a lot of this show...

    https://anas-tronaut.blogspot.ie/2017/10/star-trek-discovery-tardigrades.html?m=1

    I'm on mobile so can't post extracts but an interesting read for sure. Far too many similarities to be pure coincidence?


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    #99
    Evade
    Registered Users Posts: 6,756 ✭✭✭Evade


    AtomicHorror wrote: »
    They had similar tech in TAS, and this seems even more limited, so not sure why it's a problem.
    Surely, you can't be serious? I now mine is the minority opinion but citing TAS?
    flaneur wrote: »
    It would get pretty boring with low tech though ...
    It wouldn't be low tech, they'd still have warp drive etc, but it should be constrained to the period in which it is set. Which is why I think they should have gone post Nemesis with the series.


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    #100
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    Evade wrote: »
    Surely, you can't be serious? I now mine is the minority opinion but citing TAS?

    Like it or- well loathe would be too strong a word- "consider it a bit cringe-y", but TAS is canon, always has been.

    Hell, they were going to re-introduce the Kzinti to Enterprise before it was cancelled.
    Evade wrote: »
    It wouldn't be low tech, they'd still have warp drive etc, but it should be constrained to the period in which it is set. Which is why I think they should have gone post Nemesis with the series.

    When was the last time you watched TOS? Yes they have FTL, but does the frequent references to and use of "tapes" not jar a bit now?


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    #101
    flaneur
    Closed Accounts Posts: 960 ✭✭✭flaneur


    To be honest, the old timeline doesn’t really make sense when you consider the federation has been established and supposedly other civilizations like the Vulcans and the Betazoids and others have had warp technology and other stuff for millennia.

    So I would assume in that highly unlikely event of a Federation like community setting up, the less technologically advanced civilizations would be catapulted into modernity. There’s no reason why humans wouldn’t understand and be able to assimilate technological leaps from other cultures and develop at extremely accelerated speed. It’s lack of longevity rather than lack of ability.


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    #102
    Goodshape
    Registered Users Posts: 8,488 ✭✭✭Goodshape


    Um, there's nothing wrong with citing TAS. It's canon, and it's good.

    Animation is bit ropey (or "charming", depending on your point of view) and everything is a little "Saturday morning", but the stories are mostly solid. Definitely a couple of great episodes, at least.

    It's on Netflix. Go watch it. Doesn't take long.


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    #103
    Evade
    Registered Users Posts: 6,756 ✭✭✭Evade


    Goodshape wrote: »
    It's on Netflix. Go watch it. Doesn't take long.
    I have watched it and did enjoy it.
    AtomicHorror wrote: »
    Like it or- well loathe would be too strong a word- "consider it a bit cringe-y", but TAS is canon, always has been.
    Apparently it is now but it wasn't always. The only episode that was considered canon for a long time was Yesteryear.


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    #104
    Goodshape
    Registered Users Posts: 8,488 ✭✭✭Goodshape


    Oh, actually it might be less canon then I thought it was.

    Wikipedia have an article about Star Trek Canon –

    "However, because elements borrowed from the Animated Series are considered canon, the status of the series itself remains in a gray, semi-canon area."


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    #105
    hal9550
    Registered Users Posts: 108 ✭✭hal9550


    Holograms

    Star Trek Enterprise 'Unexpected'

    In the Enterprise episode 'unexpected', Tucker mentions that the alien holographic technology is 'Nothing Like he ever saw before'.. I read that as meaning that he has encountered or used basic holographic Tech in the past.. The fact that the technology exists is also very clear.. is it not possible that basic 'non materialistic/solid holography' was in development in the 22nd century? What seemed to surprise tucker was the dept of the technology, as opposed to its actual existance

    Star Trek Voyager 'Flashbacks'

    23rd century Holographic technology is referenced in this episode as having existed albeit not as developed: From Memory Alpha:

    "As she follows Tuvok across the bridge to his post, Janeway remarks that Sulu doesn't look anything like his portrait at Starfleet Headquarters; Tuvok explains that 23rd century holographic imagers had a less accurate resolution than the technology that would be developed in the 24th century"

    Star Trek Discovery 'Lethe'

    A holodeck is used for training purposes but at NO POINT do the personnel involved actually touch any of the holographic klingons.. in fact as they shoot the holograms flicker out

    I think its possible to suggest that 23rd century holography existed albeit no where near as advanced as its 24th century evolution

    Canon In general:

    According to Star Trek TOS 'Space Seed', the so called Eugenics wars took place that during the 1990s when genetic engineering was employed to create Khan and his colleagues, in the run up to that period.. These 'Augments' subsequently fought wars among each other before eventually being driven back and beaten

    YET.. in Star Trek Voyager 'Futures End', set during that period.. everything seemed very tranquil did it not?

    Of course all of this fits perfectly into canon with Memory Alphas statement saying

    "While the Eugenics Wars were a set of global conflicts, some cities appeared to have survived the war seemingly unaffected, such as Los Angeles that was seen in VOY: "Future's End" during the same year the wars had ended, 1996."

    Obviously we could theoretically argue that, had Janway and company set foot OUTSIDE Los Angeles, they would have seen a horrifically scared landscape, with augments running around enslaving everyone.. Perhaps the 'preservers' protected Los Angeles??

    Further differences/discrepancies exist beyond this example, including the fact that Humanity seemed perfectly sound while building the millenium gate (Voy 11:59) while also presumably building the Sanctuary Districts as seen in DS9 'Past Tense'

    My conclusion

    I think my point is that star trek, having began in 1966 and continued until the present day, is pretty full of serious continuity issues.. Lots of stuff doesnt fit together and writers have attempted to ret-con certain things as various series continued over the years. The Warp Ten barrier is another example - warp 10 = Infinite velocity.. Kelvins accelerate Constitution Class Enterprise to Warp 13.. We are later told/it is implied that, Warp Factors were re-evaluated

    I just think we need to accept that Star Trek is too complicated and long, for the whole franchise to fit together perfectly.. i WISH it did.. but barring time travel, it wont... period

    (On the time travel front im still rebuilding my tardis using Xindi Technology and a Kyber Crystal.. If i can get my hands on the Elder Wand, some anti-matter, a substitute for the 'Eye of Harmony' and a ZPM i should be able to get it working... and then i promise you all.. il fix everything.. just give me some time :D;))


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    #106
    Evade
    Registered Users Posts: 6,756 ✭✭✭Evade


    hal9550 wrote: »
    Holograms

    Star Trek Enterprise 'Unexpected'

    In the Enterprise episode 'unexpected', Tucker mentions that the alien holographic technology is 'Nothing Like he ever saw before'.. I read that as meaning that he has encountered or used basic holographic Tech in the past.. The fact that the technology exists is also very clear.. is it not possible that basic 'non materialistic/solid holography' was in development in the 22nd century? What seemed to surprise tucker was the dept of the technology, as opposed to its actual existance
    "Nothing he ever saw before" could also mean he hasn't seen this type of thing at all which I think is the way that was supposed to be interpreted. In fact that line sounds like it was supposed to drive home to someone not versed in all the ins and outs of everything Star Trek that 22nd century humans don't have this kind of technology.


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    #107
    flaneur
    Closed Accounts Posts: 960 ✭✭✭flaneur


    Given where we are in 2017 with VR not having holographic simulators would be bizarre.

    When you look at it, the tech has in some ways moved far more slowly than the 60s predicted on things like transportation but has moved probably a lot further than they imagined in terms of computers and information tech.

    Also the 60s show was pushing to the edges of what was socially normal then, but you still had women in miniskirts doing the non command jobs, shock at an interracial kiss that would be so boring now that nobody would notice, everyone was straight etc etc - it reflects 60s Hollywood .

    Our expectations of a future changed so, it would inevitably end up with continuity errors.


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    #108
    Evade
    Registered Users Posts: 6,756 ✭✭✭Evade


    They should probably just accept the differences like the new Blade Runner film did.


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    #109
    fxotoole
    Registered Users Posts: 1,661 ✭✭✭fxotoole


    AMKC wrote: »
    I have not even seen the show yet but am annoyed that they have holo tech and subspace mind melds in it. Sure this would have been fine if it was based after DS9 but its not its not even after The Original Series it is before it. Some of it I don,t mind because sets like does used on The Original series would just look wrong and terrible now but the holo tech that really annoys me.
    ...unless it's set in an alternate universe where the tech is more advanced


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    #110
    Evade
    Registered Users Posts: 6,756 ✭✭✭Evade


    fxotoole wrote: »
    ...unless it's set in an alternate universe where the tech is more advanced
    I think most people, here at least, wouldn't have an issue if that was the case but they've said a few times it's set in the prime universe.


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    #111
    hal9550
    Registered Users Posts: 108 ✭✭hal9550


    Evade wrote: »
    I think most people, here at least, wouldn't have an issue if that was the case but they've said a few times it's set in the prime universe.

    I think it will auto-correct itself to a point.. there may be some reason why Holo-Communication fell out of practice.. could be that it is insecure and easily decryptable or something..

    As to it being in an alternative reality i doubt it given what has been said.. but i would not rule it out entirely.. it is a possibility and i wouldnt like if that turned out to be the case..

    Im more forgiving of canon related issues, i admit that.. For me its kinda like Spocks line in 'City on the edge of Forever' , relating to crucial moments and people in history.. He was referring to Edith but i would say that certain events are 'SET IN STONE'. Things like that for me would include: Kirk and crew first to see what a romulan looks like (and live to tell about it).. Other things like holograms, vulcan ears being pointier (from another thread and i disagree but still), strange looking tech. ok to forgive..

    Until something occurs that we fundamentally know would not fit in to the TOS/TNG timeline, i chose to believe that its Prime universe proper star trek

    Correct me if im wrong but would you say Star Trek canon is the longest in the history of sci fi? as in it covers the longest period of history from 20th to 24th century? Doctor who is technically longer but i would not count it as Ret-con-ing in the Whoniverse goes with the territory..


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    #112
    server down
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,613 ✭✭✭server down


    It was always a big mistake to put wars in the near future like the 1990’s, particularly for a series that goes so far into the future. It’s 200 years post where most science fiction shows are set.

    As for blade runner it’s an alternate universe that deviated from ours in the 80’s.


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    #113
    Evade
    Registered Users Posts: 6,756 ✭✭✭Evade


    server down wrote: »
    It was always a big mistake to put wars in the near future like the 1990’s, particularly for a series that goes so far into the future. It’s 200 years post where most science fiction shows are set.
    Probably because no one back then thought we'd make it out of the 20th century without the Cold War going hot.

    server down wrote: »
    As for blade runner it’s an alternate universe that deviated from ours in the 80’s.
    Conveniently deviated the year it came out. Why can't Star Trek deviate from the 60s onward?


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    #114
    Goodshape
    Registered Users Posts: 8,488 ✭✭✭Goodshape


    Evade wrote: »
    Conveniently deviated the year it came out. Why can't Star Trek deviate from the 60s onward?

    Because it's essential to the Blade Runner story. It's not essential to Star Trek.


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    #115
    corkie
    Registered Users Posts: 7,300 ✭✭✭corkie


    Does continuity matter for Star Trek: Discovery?
    Or, how I learned to stop worrying and just enjoy the show that’s airing


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    #116
    ezra_
    Registered Users Posts: 1,363 ✭✭✭ezra_


    It could go the other way - Lorca is the foundation of the 'dark' Federation in the mirror 'verse.

    The spores could be the bridge between the two 'verses, and Lorca finds a better home there than in the prime one.


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    #117
    Evade
    Registered Users Posts: 6,756 ✭✭✭Evade


    ezra_ wrote: »
    It could go the other way - Lorca is the foundation of the 'dark' Federation in the mirror 'verse.
    The Terran Empire has been around for over 100 years at this point.


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    #118
    ezra_
    Registered Users Posts: 1,363 ✭✭✭ezra_


    Evade wrote: »
    The Terran Empire has been around for over 100 years at this point.

    Well I stand corrected!

    Fall back is that he sets up S31, as a morally compromised (to borrow a phrase) admiral.


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    #119
    Evade
    Registered Users Posts: 6,756 ✭✭✭Evade


    ezra_ wrote: »
    Well I stand corrected!

    Fall back is that he sets up S31, as a morally compromised (to borrow a phrase) admiral.
    Section 31 have been around since Starfleet was founded.


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    #120
    ezra_
    Registered Users Posts: 1,363 ✭✭✭ezra_


    Evade wrote: »
    Section 31 have been around since Starfleet was founded.

    'Sets up' was the wrong term.

    I don't recall seeing it in TOS / TNG.
    So a character like Lorca could make the jump to fleshing out the back story that explains how/why it reached the form it did in DS9


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    #121
    Evade
    Registered Users Posts: 6,756 ✭✭✭Evade


    ezra_ wrote: »
    'Sets up' was the wrong term.

    I don't recall seeing it in TOS / TNG.
    So a character like Lorca could make the jump to fleshing out the back story that explains how/why it reached the form it did in DS9
    They were created for DS9 but they showed up a bit in Enterprise.


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