Discovery - Timeline, continuity and other canonical issues [** SPOILERS **]

corkie

corkie wrote: »

Science Fantasy instead of Science Fiction --- "The DASH"


New 'Star Trek' Series Makes Massive Science Blunder

The new Star Trek: Discovery series is based on a massive scientific error. Can it survive?


The DASH ~ (Displacement Activated Spore Hub) drive ~ Spore Drive.

Articles like that annoy me. It's science fiction for a reason. If you want to look for something more science-based, look elsewhere. Star Trek has never been like that. And don't forget - there are near omnipotent beings that exist, so that's pretty much as far away as science-based as you can possibly get.

fxotoole

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Articles like that annoy me. It's science fiction for a reason. If you want to look for something more science-based, look elsewhere. Star Trek has never been like that. And don't forget - there are near omnipotent beings that exist, so that's pretty much as far away as science-based as you can possibly get.

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Q, for example, appears to be omnipotent. He could just be a normal human, using technology that is centuries ahead of what the TNG crew are familiar with, and is posing as a god.

flaneur

fxotoole wrote: »

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Q, for example, appears to be omnipotent. He could just be a normal human, using technology that is centuries ahead of what the TNG crew are familiar with, and is posing as a god.

Didn't TNG actually do that in "Devil's Due"

Evade

flaneur wrote: »

Didn't TNG actually do that in "Devil's Due"

Sort of. I don't think any of the crew believed Ardra's claims but the people on the planet certainly did. The Prophets in DS9 were probably the best example of tech-gods.

Picard himself accidentally became the head of a pantheon of gods in Who Watches the Watchers.

The weirdest version of the tech god thing is the planet in Justice* which appears to be a pre-warp society that worships some kind of space station. What was the Prime Directive for again? It's possible that they've just socially regressed to a child like state due to having replicators etc but the PD probably still applies.

*How much better would TNG have been if Wesley had been executed in this episode?

pixelburp

Something that was niggling me a little was that until this weeks episode, I was pretty sure we didn't get a name for the only other non-human on the bridge - I heard something like "Ariam", the metallic woman that got the odd line here & there. Always seemed like a lot of make up spent on an otherwise fleeting character; do we even know if she's meant to be an alien, robot, something else?

Goodshape

It read in an article that she's an augmented human. I think we'll be seeing more of her.

Evade

Goodshape wrote: »

It read in an article that she's an augmented human. I think we'll be seeing more of her.

pixelburp

What's the problem? If what Goodshape says is true, it doesn't break canon given it's just genetic augmentation that's banned (mentioned in Discovery already too). Cybernetic augments never came up IIRC, presumably because that only started becoming more topical and relevant after Trek left the airwaves & medical research really ramped up. Could be an interesting angle, if she does indeed get more screen time.

Evade

pixelburp wrote: »

What's the problem? If what Goodshape says is true, it doesn't break canon given it's just genetic augmentation that's banned (mentioned in Discovery already too). Cybernetic augments never came up IIRC, presumably because that only started becoming more topical and relevant after Trek left the airwaves & medical research really ramped up. Could be an interesting angle, if she does indeed get more screen time.

The Borg.

pixelburp

Evade wrote: »

The Borg.

Which are neither contradicted nor negated by the presence of augmented humans.

Evade

pixelburp wrote: »

Which are neither contradicted nor negated by the presence of augmented humans.

It's not like it's ever been said there was absolutely never any cybernetically enhanced humans in the history of Star Trek so it's not a direct contradiction. But the Borg were such an alien concept to the TNG crew that having a cybernetically augmented human (or alien*) as part of the Discovery's crew is more than a little odd. It would be like an artificial intelligence in a robot body as part of the crew. That wouldn't directly contradict the uniqueness of Data being the first android in Starfleet but it does at the very least step on his toes.

*I know there was the Binar in early TNG and that is a plot hole that hasn't been addressed as far as I know but that still doesn't give this a pass.

pixelburp

Evade wrote: »

It's not like it's ever been said there was absolutely never any cybernetically enhanced humans in the history of Star Trek so it's not a direct contradiction. But the Borg were such an alien concept to the TNG crew that having a cybernetically augmented human (or alien*) as part of the Discovery's crew is more than a little odd. It would be like an artificial intelligence in a robot body as part of the crew. That wouldn't directly contradict the uniqueness of Data being the first android in Starfleet but it does at the very least step on his toes.

*I know there was the Binar in early TNG and that is a plot hole that hasn't been addressed as far as I know but that still doesn't give this a pass.

I dunno, thematically you could easily rationalise those early TNG episodes in that the concept of a malevolent technological hivemind, one that was utterly incapable of negotiation or compromise, was what threw the crew - Picard in particular, being as he was the master negotiator throughout the series. Even other hivemind races were open to the notion of a diplomatic chat.

Like the holograms, augmented humans feels on point with what we now see as the technological zeitgeist. Transhumanism is a real and demonstrable idea now, more than it has ever been and while genetic augmentation has been tackled in Trek through Dr. Bashir, cybernetic augmentation remains unexplored as a concept ( and may remain thus, we don't know if this crewmember will get any extra screentime). The Borg have unfairly dominated the subject and are too much of an extreme

Goodshape

We don't know anything about her to be fair. They could be mostly cosmetic. Maybe augments is the 23rd century's tattoo and she was a rebellious teenager.

Evade

pixelburp wrote: »

I dunno, thematically you could easily rationalise those early TNG episodes in that the concept of a malevolent technological hivemind, one that was utterly incapable of negotiation or compromise, was what threw the crew - Picard in particular, being as he was the master negotiator throughout the series. Even other hivemind races were open to the notion of a diplomatic chat.

Like the holograms, augmented humans feels on point with what we now see as the technological zeitgeist. Transhumanism is a real and demonstrable idea now, more than it has ever been and while genetic augmentation has been tackled in Trek through Dr. Bashir, cybernetic augmentation remains unexplored as a concept ( and may remain thus, we don't know if this crewmember will get any extra screentime). The Borg have unfairly dominated the subject and are too much of an extreme

Seems like all these concepts would have been a lot easier if they weren't dead set on making STD a prequel or have it set in the prime universe.

Evade

Evade wrote: »

I love that in that posted facepalm there is a reflection of a fully synthetic man. Wonder if the poster would have felt the same in the 80s?

Evade

Evade wrote: »

Seems like all these concepts would have been a lot easier if they weren't dead set on making STD a prequel or have it set in the prime universe.

Or that the design team have a bit of cop on, considering that we are already beginning to cybernetically augment humans in our time.

Evade

Deleted User wrote: »

I love that in that posted facepalm there is a reflection of a fully synthetic man. Wonder if the poster would have felt the same in the 80s?

The artificial man I referenced here

Evade wrote: »

It would be like an artificial intelligence in a robot body as part of the crew. That wouldn't directly contradict the uniqueness of Data being the first android in Starfleet but it does at the very least step on his toes.

The problem I have is the dreaded c-word. This stuff wasn't around, or at least not known to the Federation, in the mid 24th century but here it is 100 years earlier. TNG didn't really have this problem, it being a sequel and all.

Deleted User wrote: »

Or that the design team have a bit of cop on, considering that we are already beginning to cybernetically augment humans in our time.

I have no problem with Star Treks history and our own diverged at some point and the constant need to change things to make it catch up is dumb. This isn't exclusively the fault of STD, Voyager and Enterprise did it too.

AMKC

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Ah, I pick it up as I go. I've seen every episode of every incarnation of the franchise. They'll come to me.
I like that it's more edgy. Could do without the opening sequence reminiscent of 'House'.

Same here. Well the first one is Captain Lorca then there is ok only joking.
I know about 5 of them no idea what the doctors name is do or the navigator and helmsman.
I am hoping that there is a new opening sequence for the second season.

pixelburp wrote: »

Something that was niggling me a little was that until this weeks episode, I was pretty sure we didn't get a name for the only other non-human on the bridge - I heard something like "Ariam", the metallic woman that got the odd line here & there. Always seemed like a lot of make up spent on an otherwise fleeting character; do we even know if she's meant to be an alien, robot, something else?

Same here.No idea but I hope we get to see and learn more about her.

Goodshape wrote: »

It read in an article that she's an augmented human. I think we'll be seeing more of her.

Hope so.

Evade wrote: »

Seems like all these concepts would have been a lot easier if they weren't dead set on making STD a prequel or have it set in the prime universe.

They sure would and less controversial as well.

Evade

Evade wrote: »

The problem I have is the dreaded c-word. This stuff wasn't around, or at least not known to the Federation, in the mid 24th century but here it is 100 years earlier. TNG didn't really have this problem, it being a sequel and all.

She is augmented, how much we don't know.

We've see NCC1701 to E DS9 and Voyager. Barely a blip in the diversity of the Federation, hell TNG had the bynars far far ahead of any cybernetic augmentation you will see on this show (I imagine).

There is no reason to NOT have cybernetic crew especially as the show has repeatedly shown the tech level to be similar to our own in development.
TOS showing 1960s
STIV showing 1980s
Voyager showing 1990s

All at our level and would make less sense to curb any advancement, to match limited effects and budgets.

If something that small suspends your disbelief then I think that this show is always going to be hard for you to get immersed in

server down

Geordi La Forge was an augmented human.

Evade

Deleted User wrote: »

She is augmented, how much we don't know.

Has that been confirmed or is it just speculation?

Deleted User wrote: »

TNG had the bynars far far ahead of any cybernetic augmentation you will see on this show (I imagine).

Are they in the Federation, they looked more like a neighbouring independent system? They certainly should have been mentioned in the Borg TNG episodes and that's a plot hole that annoys me too.

Deleted User wrote: »

There is no reason to NOT have cybernetic crew

I can think of at least one.

Deleted User wrote: »

If something that small suspends your disbelief then I think that this show is always going to be hard for you to get immersed in

I'd probably like STD a lot more if I knew a lot less about Star Trek.

What I don't understand is why, given that there is a "ZOMG canonz issues" thread, specific episode threads are constantly filled with tiny aspects which have nothing to do with the episode.

Mitch Connor

Deleted User wrote: »

What I don't understand is why, given that there is a "ZOMG canonz issues" thread, specific episode threads are constantly filled with tiny aspects which have nothing to do with the episode.

Internet conversations diverging into tangents? HOW UN-UNDERSTANDABLE!

Mitch Connor

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Internet conversations diverging into tangents? HOW UN-UNDERSTANDABLE!

They really do have nothing to do with the episode at hand, though, and more go into canonical issues, which does have a dedicated thread.

But, as pointed out, LaForge was an augmented human.

pixelburp

I feel this tangent is all my fault really all 'cos that mysterious robot-woman finally got a name (and apparently is senior enough to captain the bridge in Lorca/Saru's absence). IIRC the other bridge regulars got name-checked too...

server down wrote: »

Geordi La Forge was an augmented human.

That's very true & easy to forget; I guess there is a little bit of precedence for transhumanism in Star Trek then, but IMO it remains a fairly unexplored concept in a franchise that has, to a greater or lesser extent, has covered nearly every major shift in social or technological dynamics for humanity.

pixelburp

pixelburp wrote: »

I feel this tangent is all my fault really all 'cos that mysterious robot-woman finally got a name (and apparently is senior enough to captain the bridge in Lorca/Saru's absence). IIRC the other bridge regulars got name-checked too...



That's very true & easy to forget; I guess there is a little bit of precedence for transhumanism in Star Trek then, but IMO it remains a fairly unexplored concept in a franchise that has, to a greater or lesser extent, has covered nearly every major shift in social or technological dynamics for humanity.

But humanity moves on and new technologies come along every day - we have stuff around now that seemed total science fiction during any of the previous Trek franchises.

Trek has always tried to remain current, so to stay like this, then the cannon needs to evolve.

The_Valeyard

I want them to bring back this robot thing.

Evade

The_Valeyard wrote: »

I want them to bring back this robot thing.

Is she some kind of ship's avatar? Or is it some kind of VR headset?
It says USS Shenzhou on the side of her head/device.

Geordie's a good illustration of the level of augmentation that could be achieved in the 24th century.

If my posts are too off topic there's a report button you can use.

Goodshape

Geordie's a good illustration of the level of augmentation that could be dreamed up and put on TV in the 1980s.

The visor doesn't seem all that revolutionary now. Do you really want a new Star Trek show that pretends we won't have tech like that for another 300 years?

I mean, we're getting pretty close already –
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_enhancement
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberware


This is all a good illustration of why we needed a visual and tech overhaul of the series, regardless of what in-universe year the thing is set.

Evade

Goodshape wrote: »

This is all a good illustration of why we needed a visual and tech overhaul of the series, regardless of what in-universe year the thing is set.

I don't agree. If we invented FTL drives tomorrow I wouldn't expect Star Trek to try retcon that fact into its history, the same goes for everything else. They can tell all kinds of stories via allegory or alien civilisations or quantum nonsense. Or in the 25th century where artificial intelligences are already established and cyberisation could be easily explained as being an off shoot of Borg tech research.