Unions warn of train strike as staff demand pay increase

GM228

Hilly Bill wrote: »

You can double that with executives.

There is around 50 executives/managers within IE with in fairness many more managerial positions, managerial positions are not the same as managers or executives.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Lowest would be between 38 and 40 k with no sliding scale

Your talking rubbish, the grade 4 station operative has a 10 year scale starting at €33,391 for year 1 raising to €43,650 for year 10.

GM228

devnull wrote: »

Personally I think the best thing to do in these situations is to get the figures from the horses mouth, such as a Freedom of Informaton request for the salary levels since that would be the very best source.

See the attached.

More up to date.

And the figures I provided are confirmed:-

Grade Code|Description|Contract Hours|Min of Scale|Max of Scale
S34|CTC Signalpersons 39 - 48 Hr Arrangement|48|51596.29|58632.58
V48|Loco Driver 39/48 Hour Arrangement|48|43716.99|55238.59
S11|Station Operative Grade 4 39/48 Hour|48|33391.58|43650.22

Also confirms exactly 50 managers/executives as of December 2015.

I rest my case.

Hilly Bill

devnull wrote: »

Personally I think the best thing to do in these situations is to get the figures from the horses mouth, such as a Freedom of Informaton request for the salary levels since that would be the very best source.

See the attached.

I think a payslip of an actual employee is more accurate.

Hilly Bill

GM228 wrote: »

More up to date.

And the figures I provided are confirmed:-

Grade Code|Description|Contract Hours|Min of Scale|Max of Scale
S34|CTC Signalpersons 39 - 48 Hr Arrangemen|48|51596.29|58632.58
V48|Loco Driver 39/48 Hour Arrangement|48|43716.99|55238.59
S11|Station Operative Grade 4 39/48 Hour|48|33391.58|43650.22

Also confirms exactly 50 managers/executives as of December 2015.

I rest my case.

So Nowhere near the 60 grand average.

devnull

GM228 wrote: »

More up to date.

It's the same PDF I think, just with the whole request in it rather than just the salary pages.

Hilly Bill

GM228 wrote: »

There is around 50 executives/managers within IE with in fairness many more managerial positions, managerial positions are not the same as managers or executives.





Your talking rubbish, the grade 4 station operative has a 10 year scale starting at €33,391 for year 1 raising to €43,650 for year 10.

Spilt my coffee laughing at that one 😂

devnull

Hilly Bill wrote: »

I think a payslip of an actual employee is more accurate.

Yeah, because one employees payslip of one grade is more indicative of how much the company pay than a list of all the hundreds of grades and the salary scales that are on offer for those grades.:rolleyes:

Or do you really think that the company are dishonestly filling in Freedom of Information requests as well as making the accounts look like people are paid more than they actually are and the auditors have agreed to go along with it too?

Hilly Bill wrote: »

So Nowhere near the 60 grand average.

Note that these figures in the document provided by Irish Rail are all basic wages, it is before any bonus is throwed in, overtime, shift payments or any additional payments that staff get which would increase these salaries.

At the end of the day we know the salary scales now and we know the number of staff and the overall pay bill so we also know average wage, these are simple facts backed up by official and/or legally binding documents, however much you try and play the figures down, that's still the case.

GM228

Hilly Bill wrote: »

So Nowhere near the 60 grand average.

You may want to re-read what you posted and argued:-

Hilly Bill wrote: »

GM228 wrote: »

Based on the most recent report (2015) IE had 3,796 staff, their total wage bill was €204,266,000.

That's an average of €53,810 per employee. Remember average does not necessarily represent the majority, but it is all we have to go on.

Based on the 2015 figures a 1.5% pay rise would cost around an extra €3.063M whilst a 3.5% pay rise would cost around an rxtra €7.1M per year.

Management would be the only ones near that as a basic.

You claimed that management would be the only ones near that (€53,810 by the way - not €60k) as a basic, your arguement has been rubbished.

You also claimed there were 325 managers - that arguement has also been rubbished.

You also claimed the grade I mentioned was not on over €40k or on a scale:-

GM228 wrote: »

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Lowest would be between 38 and 40 k with no sliding scale

For which grade? Your being very vague!

Hilly Bill wrote: »

The same one you think that they are getting over 40 k.

Again that arguement has also been rubbished.

Del.Monte

If they want to save money they should start at the top with the likes of Barry Kenny who serve no useful function and have so little work to do that they have second jobs in the media. :rolleyes:

murphthesmurf

GM228 wrote: »

Rubbish.

CTC Signalmen, drivers and many other grades are already above or near to that average for their basic, some grades are even near to that for year 1.





Even for example grade 4 (the lowest grade) station operatives are on €43k a year at year 10 (most are reaching year 10 now).

Jesus ****ing Christ !! 43k for a ****ing operative. You gotta be kidding me, that's ridiculous insanity. I hope it does go bankrupt and everyone of them has to join the real world. If anyone can somehow justify an operative earning that amount of money I'd love to hear it. It shouldn't be much more than minimum wage for that.

Jobs OXO

GM228 wrote: »

You may want to re-read what you posted and argued:-



You claimed that management would be the only ones near that (€53,810 by the way - not €60k) as a basic, your arguement has been rubbished.

You also claimed there were 325 managers - that arguement has also been rubbished.

You also claimed the grade I mentioned was not on over €40k or on a scale:-



Again that arguement has also been rubbished.

Sounds like someone was duped into one of the lower grades of one of the low paying roles and is trying to extrapolate out from his own meagre wages to the company as a whole.

end of the road

mini_Sapphire wrote: »

More money from a company going insolvent... you couldn't make it up. When they wind up on the dole queues they will have only themselves to blame

they are very unlikely to be on the dole queue. not only are there plenty of countries where they can go to drive, but whoever would replace irish rail in an insolvantsy situation, will want to get up and running as quickly as possible, meaning those drivers will be back rather quickly.

Ultimate Seduction wrote: »

Not happy with your pay, get a job elsewhere. Go work in the UK if the money's so much better. Unions have there purpose, but they should not be allowed get away with this.

not happy with your pay, improve it and stay in the job so that the experience can remain within the company and within the country, staying here in ireland is the best option. there is nothing for the unions to not be allowed to get away with, as with-holding one's labour is perfectly legal and just.

murphthesmurf wrote: »

Jesus ****ing Christ !! 43k for a ****ing operative. You gotta be kidding me, that's ridiculous insanity. I hope it does go bankrupt and everyone of them has to join the real world. If anyone can somehow justify an operative earning that amount of money I'd love to hear it. It shouldn't be much more than minimum wage for that.

they are in the real world, and are earning what the particular job they do requires given all the relevant conditions. irish rail going bankrupt wouldn't change that reality long term, as whoever would replace them would pay similar. the job is not a minimum wage job and never will be, so it shouldn't be a minimum wage job otherwise nobody will do it.

GM228

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/unite-becomes-latest-union-to-ballot-for-irish-rail-strike-1.3236854?mode=amp

Unite to ballot also, expect TSSA and TEEU will follow suit.

Infini

Look its a bit pointless to say this and that about pay when its fairly clear that most of the staff outside of control, management and the driving grade arent even close to 60k. Hell even those on the top of the scale arent even past 49k before tax. Overtime cannot be counted as its not reliable. Even the highest driving pay is €55k at the top of the scale.

As for management sure theres permenant management but theres been alot of secondments and other middle management roles as well to consider.

GM228

Barry Kenny and Dermot O'Leary on Morning Ireland earlier.

https://www.rte.ie/radio1/morning-ireland/programmes/2017/0928/908133-morning-ireland-thursday-28-september-2017/?clipid=102616052#102616052

devnull

Infini wrote: »

Look its a bit pointless to say this and that about pay when its fairly clear that most of the staff outside of control, management and the driving grade arent even close to 60k. Hell even those on the top of the scale arent even past 49k before tax. Even the highest driving pay is €55k at the top.

So let me get this straight
- The driving grade are not close to 60k
- Then you say they are not past 49k before tax
- Then you say that it's 55k at the top

You sound pretty confused there as you're making several statements all which appear to contradict with each other, there's no consistancy in your argument on this point which makes it look like a fudge rather than a coherent point.

Overtime cannot be counted as its not reliable.

So it doesn't count when we are calculating your yearly take home package, but I bet if there was to be an arrangement which suddenly cut the amount you could earn from it it would count then and the unions would be up in arms about how much worse off it would leave their members like they were with Bus Eireann?

That's before we take into account that there are a lot more additional payments than overtime when it comes to extra, such as shift payments, bonuses, top ups and other perks that are offered by Irish Rail.

Infini

To be honest I could probably do a better explanation just to clarify but mobiles arent exactly format friendly! Also as for overtime it cant be counted correctly because its not a stable benchmark. You coud have one person raking it in and another barely doing it at all. Its also known the overtime is a result of lack of qualified drivers too and lack of staff in other areas.

Honestly though if this were simply about pay it might be rather too simple there has to be more going on. What sticks to me is how management would say a small pay rise but then look to butcher terms and conditions at the same time. I might not vote to strike for a pay rise alone but if they were attempting to undermine my pay by forcing me onto a job with lower wages through less hours or forced redeployments I would as it would be the company trying to breach my agreed contract.

trellheim

Are we going to do the DB, LUAS and BE strike threads again or will this one be more or less fun or can we just repost greatest hits lol

tayto lover

Overtime should never be factored into wages.
Some people work it and some wouldn't dream of working it. I never did. Also you can never rely on overtime being available and you never should.

The basic wage is what matters. If it's not good then people have a right to fight for better.

Hilly Bill

devnull wrote: »

Yeah, because one employees payslip of one grade is more indicative of how much the company pay than a list of all the hundreds of grades and the salary scales that are on offer for those grades.:rolleyes:

Or do you really think that the company are dishonestly filling in Freedom of Information requests as well as making the accounts look like people are paid more than they actually are and the auditors have agreed to go along with it too?



Note that these figures in the document provided by Irish Rail are all basic wages, it is before any bonus is throwed in, overtime, shift payments or any additional payments that staff get which would increase these salaries.

At the end of the day we know the salary scales now and we know the number of staff and the overall pay bill so we also know average wage, these are simple facts backed up by official and/or legally binding documents, however much you try and play the figures down, that's still the case.

The average wage is still not 60 grand is it and bear in mind that overtime and allowances is non existent in some areas but feel free to begrudge the extra few quid on their basic. This is the same staff that took a cut in wages for a while to help the company.

devnull

Infini wrote: »

To be honest I could probably do a better explanation just to clarify but mobiles arent exactly format friendly! Also as for overtime it cant be counted correctly because its not a stable benchmark.

But the thing is at the end of the day everything adds up and the company still have to pay it and on average staff are taking home approx €55k and that will rise to almost €60k if they get the rise that they are looking for, it's simply not feasible, whether you think overtime should count or not, the simple fact is that it still needs to be paid for and is a payroll cost whether you like it or not.

Overtime is just one of the top-ups that people in Irish Rail are getting, there is many more from shift premiums, bonuses and other perks that would make up the overall staffing cost to the company. Whatever way you want to dress it up the average employee is earning approx €55k a year and they want that to increase to approx 57k which will cost the company over €7m which is a hell of a lot of money for a company that is in financial difficulty.

tayto lover wrote: »

Overtime should never be factored into wages.
Some people work it and some wouldn't dream of working it. I never did. Also you can never rely on overtime being available and you never should. The basic wage is what matters. If it's not good then people have a right to fight for better.

I have to laugh about people saying that overtime does not matter, if it was taken away from the staff or subject to cuts like was proposed in Bus Eireann the staff would be out on their heals saying that they were losing a lot of take home pay as we saw in past strikes.

It's strange, overtime doesn't count when we are calculating someones salary and how much they are paid, but if someone is losing that pay or having cuts to overtime then suddenly it is counted as an example that they are losing a big cut of their take home pay.

devnull

Hilly Bill wrote: »

The average wage is still not 60 grand is it

The average wage is 55k, if everyone got the 3.5% rise it would be 57k.

Hilly Bill

GM228 wrote: »

You may want to re-read what you posted and argued:-



You claimed that management would be the only ones near that (€53,810 by the way - not €60k) as a basic, your arguement has been rubbished.

You also claimed there were 325 managers - that arguement has also been rubbished.

You also claimed the grade I mentioned was not on over €40k or on a scale:-




Again that arguement has also been rubbished.

How many on that list was on over 60 grand as a basic?
I didn't claim 325 managers, i just said too many. I posted a random number because it was a bit dull to ask for a ball park figure.
The truth is that you Googled a set of figures and assumed that everyone must be on the top rate for that grade.

tayto lover

devnull wrote: »

But the thing is at the end of the day everything adds up and the company still have to pay it and on average staff are taking home approx €55k and that will rise to almost €60k if they get the rise that they are looking for, it's simply not feasible, whether you think overtime should count or not, the simple fact is that it still needs to be paid for and is a payroll cost whether you like it or not.





I have to laugh about people saying that overtime does not matter, if it was taken away from the staff or subject to cuts like was proposed in Bus Eireann the staff would be out on their heals saying that they were losing a lot of take home pay as we saw in past strikes.

It's strange, overtime doesn't count when we are calculating someones salary and how much they are paid, but if someone is losing that pay or having cuts to overtime then suddenly it is counted as an example that they are losing a big cut of their take home pay.

Feel free to roll on the floor laughing BUT if I was offered a job and they told me my earnings could rise to *** with overtime I wouldn't even factor it in.
The working week is long enough and family time cannot be replaced by overtime. I'd simply want a basic pay that I could live on and pay my bills. No pie in the sky for me. Sorry.

Hilly Bill

devnull wrote: »

The average wage is 55k, if everyone got the 3.5% rise it would be 57k.

So we have come down from 60 grand,

Do you reckon your mate at your local station is getting 55 grand a year basic?

devnull

Hilly Bill wrote: »

So we have come down from 60 grand.

I have said €54,876 at 11:55 and linked to the Irish Rail Annual report what I based it on so I think you're a bit behind if you think I've only just said it now.

Do you reckon your mate at your local station is getting 55 grand a year basic?

Actually there are a couple of guys who work at most of the stations I frequently use and some are younger and some are older, I would expect them to be on a range of different salaries depending on how long they have been there and what grade they are.

Infini

murphthesmurf wrote: »

Jesus ****ing Christ !! 43k for a ****ing operative. You gotta be kidding me, that's ridiculous insanity. I hope it does go bankrupt and everyone of them has to join the real world. If anyone can somehow justify an operative earning that amount of money I'd love to hear it. It shouldn't be much more than minimum wage for that.

Says who exactly? The court of jealousy perhaps? As for hoping the place goes bankrupt seriously what kind of post is that exactly? That reeks of jealousy and hypocrisy to be honest.

devnull wrote: »

The average wage is 55k, if everyone got the 3.5% rise it would be 57k.

I would note though that "averages" can be deceptive as it can depend on HOW those averages are calculated that can skew the figure. If those averages involve only the main staff itself and not management they could be semi accurate but if you add in middle/upper management as well as clerical it can skew the figure significantly. You also have to factor in hours as some can be on as low as 36 and others as high as 48.

Edit: It should be said as well that most of the traffic grade is on a fixed rate with no time and a half etc those went with the 2000 era contracts. There's no lunch allowances etc except maybe in the Driving Grade where your out of depot but I think thats been gone a while.

Hilly Bill

devnull wrote: »

So let me get this straight
- The driving grade are not close to 60k
- Then you say they are not past 49k before tax
- Then you say that it's 55k at the top

You sound pretty confused there as you're making several statements all which appear to contradict with each other, there's no consistancy in your argument on this point which makes it look like a fudge rather than a coherent point.



So it doesn't count when we are calculating your yearly take home package, but I bet if there was to be an arrangement which suddenly cut the amount you could earn from it it would count then and the unions would be up in arms about how much worse off it would leave their members like they were with Bus Eireann?

That's before we take into account that there are a lot more additional payments than overtime when it comes to extra, such as shift payments, bonuses, top ups and other perks that are offered by Irish Rail.

I know of loads that would love to get shift payments, no idea as to what this mythical bonuses top ups and perks that is supposed to make up the wages.
Just admit that you are a begrudger for whatever reason and move on.

Hilly Bill

Infini wrote: »

To be honest I could probably do a better explanation just to clarify but mobiles arent exactly format friendly! Also as for overtime it cant be counted correctly because its not a stable benchmark. You coud have one person raking it in and another barely doing it at all. Its also known the overtime is a result of lack of qualified drivers too and lack of staff in other areas.

Honestly though if this were simply about pay it might be rather too simple there has to be more going on. What sticks to me is how management would say a small pay rise but then look to butcher terms and conditions at the same time. I might not vote to strike for a pay rise alone but if they were attempting to undermine my pay by forcing me onto a job with lower wages through less hours or forced redeployments I would as it would be the company trying to breach my agreed contract.

They can't lower your basic, the only thing that you could loose is overtime and allowances and not a lot that you can do about that.

devnull

Infini wrote: »

I would note though that "averages" can be deceptive as it can depend on HOW those averages are calculated that can skew the figure. If those averages involve only the main staff itself and not management they could be semi accurate but if you add in middle/upper management as well as clerical it can skew the figure significantly.

A small number of people earning a lot makes very little difference because the numbers earning it are so small that is has only a small effect on the average pay, there'd also be some part timers who would drag the average figure down as well so it works both ways.

The Irish Rail Annual Report and accounts would by standard include all the employees over the whole company and the salary bill would include all of the salaries for the whole company as well, nobody would be left out of this because that is not how accounting practices work, you do not get to pick and choose what you include in your accounts.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

I know of loads that would love to get shift payments, no idea as to what this mythical bonuses top ups and perks that is supposed to make up the wages.

There clearly is perks and top-ups in Irish Rail because the unions have been going on about them in the past and lest remember in Bus Eireann there was a whole document circulated by the company detailing a large number of additional payments, premiums and perks that were going to be cut despite the fact some on here said they previously didn't exist.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

They can't lower your basic, the only thing that you could loose is overtime and allowances and not a lot that you can do about that.

Do you really think that if they started cutting the overtime rates, allowances and other additions to your basic wage, the staff would just accept that, or would they go to the press Bus Eireann style turning around and saying that they have lost x% of take home pay even though their basic wage was untouched?