Unions warn of train strike as staff demand pay increase

devnull

turbbo wrote: »

Private sector is full of part timers - comparison is skewed completely. And I'm speaking as a private sector worker.

There are part timers in the public sector too, I know a few - What you are trying to portray sounds pretty much like exclusion bias to me.

1) how that when someone argues that the wages are too high to be reflective we have to exclude the outliers at the top of the wage scale in an attempt to drag the wages down

2) how when someone argues that the wages are too low to be reflective we have to exclude the outliers at the bottom of the wage scale in an attempt to drag the wages up.

The thing with outliers is for statistics and figures to be credible you either have to leave outliers in at both ends of the scale or remove outliers from both ends of the scale, anything else is pure exclusion bias and manipulating facts to suit agendas.

the real elephant in the room is the massive income tax we pay with nothing being contributed to a guaranteed pension like they do in civilised countries that have comparative rates of tax.

You do realise that the income tax that you are paying on top of your salary every month that you are paid, is what is paying for the wages in the public sector?

murphthesmurf

turbbo wrote: »

Private sector is full of part timers - comparison is skewed completely. And I'm speaking as a private sector worker.

Main problem is this constant crap of pitching private sector against state employees - the real elephant in the room is the massive income tax we pay with nothing being contributed to a guaranteed pension like they do in civilised countries that have comparative rates of tax.
Future is grim here.

No he did start that average is for full time workers, it does not include part time.
How can you hope to get a tax cut if we don't put a stop to the hugely overpaid public sector. The publis sector average wage is 10k higher than the private sector. That is why there is a public v private sector argument. If you're in the private sector, next time you get your wage packet and see how much tax you have paid consider where it is going. It's not going to the Gards or the HSE. A new recruit in the Gards gets, what, 25k? An 'operative' in IE gets 35k. For what? Imagine how much less tax you would be saving if the average wage was the same. 10k less for each of the thousands of public sector workers.

turbbo

devnull wrote: »

You do realise that the income tax that you are paying on top of your salary every month that you are paid, is what is paying for the wages in the public sector?

Yes. Do you realise that the same rates of income tax are payed in the public sector - they are not excluded?

murphthesmurf

turbbo wrote: »

Not only that they are free to look for state jobs that pay so well too!
afaik there's nothing stopping people applying for state jobs and even getting them?

What, all of us?
If we all worked for public sector we would have to pay 100% of our wages in tax, to pay our wages!

turbbo

murphthesmurf wrote: »

It's not going to the Gards or the HSE.

I nearly choked on me tea here when I read that!!
:eek::eek::eek::eek:
HSE is one of the public sectors I would single out to cut jobs and wages the -annual spend on it for a country of our size is crazy.

I agree with you about the "Gards" though and lots of other state jobs going underpaid.

IE workers should definitely be keeping stchum I don't agree with them striking either.

turbbo

murphthesmurf wrote: »

What, all of us?
If we all worked for public sector we would have to pay 100% of our wages in tax, to pay our wages!

So you were given the job you're in now at birth were you? You didn't sit through an interview at any stage - get an education/training? Work and gain experience?
The same rules apply for all jobs private/state - you have to earn them. Being jealous of a fellow worker earning more being private sector/state should be motivation to go after that job yourself rather than moaning how much extra they get paid over you.

murphthesmurf

Hilly Bill wrote: »

You will still get ****e pay if you keep settling for it

People in the private sector get paid for what they can do, and how much they do. Unlike in the public sector where a wage is considered an entitlement in the private sector it is earned.
If you work as an operative in the private sector you will NEVER reach 35k. A warehouse operative for someone like Lidl would be quite well paid for that role, at around 25k for a 40 hour week. I've seen the adverts for the warehouse they have in Mullingar. An assistant manager in a Lidl store would get 35k.
This idea you have that everyone in the private sector just 'settles' for it is absolute nonsense. You get the going rate, end of. You can cry and protest all you like, the only place you will go is out the door. As an operative you are very easily replaced. Not that being an operative is a bad thing, I have worked as a warehouse operative myself in the past. To get 35k in the private sector you need skills/qualifications/experience.
What does someone in a IE operative position do? Is it just general duties around the station? In the private sector this would probably be minimum wage.

turbbo

Hilly Bill wrote: »

You will still get ****e pay if you keep settling for it

murphthesmurf wrote: »

People in the private sector get paid for what they can do, and how much they do. Unlike in the public sector where a wage is considered an entitlement in the private sector it is earned.
If you work as an operative in the private sector you will NEVER reach 35k. A warehouse operative for someone like Lidl would be quite well paid for that role, at around 25k for a 40 hour week. I've seen the adverts for the warehouse they have in Mullingar. An assistant manager in a Lidl store would get 35k.
This idea you have that everyone in the private sector just 'settles' for it is absolute nonsense. You get the going rate, end of. You can cry and protest all you like, the only place you will go is out the door. As an operative you are very easily replaced. Not that being an operative is a bad thing, I have worked as a warehouse operative myself in the past. To get 35k in the private sector you need skills/qualifications/experience.
What does someone in a IE operative position do? Is it just general duties around the station? In the private sector this would probably be minimum wage.

Funnily enough I agree with both of ye! :P

murphthesmurf

turbbo wrote: »

I nearly choked on me tea here when I read that!!
:eek::eek::eek::eek:
HSE is one of the public sectors I would single out to cut jobs and wages the -annual spend on it for a country of our size is crazy.

I agree with you about the "Gards" though and lots of other state jobs going underpaid.

IE workers should definitely be keeping stchum I don't agree with them striking either.

I meant more the standard of the HSE, 18 month waiting lists etc. It is hugely inefficient, but drastically needs more doctors etc and these cost money. Lots of money. Highly skilled and qualified people like that can and do work wherever they like. For our own sakes we need them to come here.
One area where I disagree with people attacking public sector pay is doctors and surgeons etc. I remember on Newstalk around a year ago there was a big fuss about surgeons earning 200k. If you or your child is ill and in need of a life saving operation you have a choice. You can either take the doctor from a 3rd world contry who speaks 'some' English and earns 50k, or you can take the surgeon with perfect English and a huge list of letters after his name who earns 250k. Which do you want?

murphthesmurf

turbbo wrote: »

So you were given the job you're in now at birth were you? You didn't sit through an interview at any stage - get an education/training? Work and gain experience?
The same rules apply for all jobs private/state - you have to earn them. Being jealous of a fellow worker earning more being private sector/state should be motivation to go after that job yourself rather than moaning how much extra they get paid over you.

But public sector workers earn more than all private sector workers. We can't all work for the public sector can we?

turbbo

murphthesmurf wrote: »

I meant more the standard of the HSE, 18 month waiting lists etc. It is hugely inefficient, but drastically needs more doctors etc and these cost money. Lots of money. Highly skilled and qualified people like that can and do work wherever they like. For our own sakes we need them to come here.
One area where I disagree with people attacking public sector pay is doctors and surgeons etc. I remember on Newstalk around a year ago there was a big fuss about surgeons earning 200k. If you or your child is ill and in need of a life saving operation you have a choice. You can either take the doctor from a 3rd world contry who speaks 'some' English and earns 50k, or you can take the surgeon with perfect English and a huge list of letters after his name who earns 250k. Which do you want?

Again totally agree - but I'm not sure throwing more money to the Idiots that run the HSE means we'll get more doctors. It hasn't equated to that in the past. We've spent more and got worse over the years. "The squeaky wheel gets the grease" - think this wheel is for taking off at this stage.

turbbo

murphthesmurf wrote: »

But public sector workers earn more than all private sector workers.

What sort of $hite is that?

Creative83

turbbo wrote: »

What sort of $hite is that?

I wouldn't say that they all get paid more than their counterparts in the private sector but a substantial majority would particularly with the crackpot pensions a lot of public sector workers are receiving

Rootsblower

murphthesmurf wrote: »

It's the real world, not a public funded bubble. No company would pay 35k for an unskilled operative who could be replaced in a heart beat. You would be told if you don't like it there is the door. Take a look on jobs.ie or similar and find me an 'operative' position paying over 25k.

My brother works in a factory and earns just under 40k as unskilled operative. Perhaps if more workers unionized then pay rates would improve.

murphthesmurf

turbbo wrote: »

What sort of $hite is that?

On a like for like basis that is. Plus when you start adding in things like the insane lottery winner like pensions, as many 'sick' days as you like, usually more holiday days.

Rootsblower

murphthesmurf wrote: »

On a like for like basis that is. Plus when you start adding in things like the insane lottery winner like pensions, as many 'sick' days as you like, usually more holiday days.

Define a lottery like pension and who gets as many 'sick' days as they like , btw max entitlement in railway operations grades annual leave is 23 days after 7 years appointed service

turbbo

Rootsblower wrote: »

My brother works in a factory and earns just under 40k as unskilled operative. Perhaps if more workers unionized then pay rates would improve.

Yeah my pay has increased over the years as one would expect as you gain experience in a role etc. However my net pay hasn't moved due to all the tax increases lumped on over the same period. I'm running to stand still.
I'm sure I'm not the only one that has noticed this over the last 10 years?

Tax at the higher middle to high level income is way too high for it to be worth peoples time, hence the reason their are so many people are working part time.

pjohnson

You think when the NBRU heads arrive here they could provide some form of intelligent debate and justification/explanation for their stance.


If the reg's here are indicative of the NBRU skillset is it any wonder they fail so miserably in negotiations. OR decide in the first place to ask a loss making company INCREASE their wages.

murphthesmurf

Rootsblower wrote: »

My brother works in a factory and earns just under 40k as unskilled operative. Perhaps if more workers unionized then pay rates would improve.

He's very lucky. If he ever loses that job and applies for another and they see he is a member of a trade union then the odds of him gettting that job will be greatly reduced. It is illegal I think to discriminate against someone for being in z union, but in reality it will lessen his chances. Thats life in the private sector.

Hilly Bill

GM228 wrote: »

As I suspected.

Current figure:-

Staff - 3806
2016 Wage Bill - €208,861,000
Average wage - €54,876 per staff member


CEO is on €225,000 per year.

We will also assume the 50 managers are all earning the top rate of €133,397 (they most definately are not, in 2013 only 88 people in the entire CIE group were earning over €100,000, but for the sake of the arguement we will pretend they are = €6,669,850).

So we now run with:-

Staff - 3755
2016 Wage Bill - €202,431,150
Average wage - €53,909 per staff member

Not much difference is it - even with applying the maximum rate to all managers.

Further to that take away the annual €13M OT bill which most likely does not apply to managers and you now have an average of €50,447.

It would be nice to get even close to 50 k or a bit of overtime or a bit of expenses.

Hilly Bill

devnull wrote: »

There are part timers in the public sector too, I know a few - What you are trying to portray sounds pretty much like exclusion bias to me.

1) how that when someone argues that the wages are too high to be reflective we have to exclude the outliers at the top of the wage scale in an attempt to drag the wages down

2) how when someone argues that the wages are too low to be reflective we have to exclude the outliers at the bottom of the wage scale in an attempt to drag the wages up.

The thing with outliers is for statistics and figures to be credible you either have to leave outliers in at both ends of the scale or remove outliers from both ends of the scale, anything else is pure exclusion bias and manipulating facts to suit agendas.



You do realise that the income tax that you are paying on top of your salary every month that you are paid, is what is paying for the wages in the public sector?

So those in the public sector pay their own wages plus the supplement those on the dole through the high taxes they pay? Is that the reason you begrudge the pay rise?

Hilly Bill

murphthesmurf wrote: »

People in the private sector get paid for what they can do, and how much they do. Unlike in the public sector where a wage is considered an entitlement in the private sector it is earned.
If you work as an operative in the private sector you will NEVER reach 35k. A warehouse operative for someone like Lidl would be quite well paid for that role, at around 25k for a 40 hour week. I've seen the adverts for the warehouse they have in Mullingar. An assistant manager in a Lidl store would get 35k.
This idea you have that everyone in the private sector just 'settles' for it is absolute nonsense. You get the going rate, end of. You can cry and protest all you like, the only place you will go is out the door. As an operative you are very easily replaced. Not that being an operative is a bad thing, I have worked as a warehouse operative myself in the past. To get 35k in the private sector you need skills/qualifications/experience.
What does someone in a IE operative position do? Is it just general duties around the station? In the private sector this would probably be minimum wage.

If you don't know what they do then you can't give out that they are getting too much compared to someone in lidls.

Hilly Bill

mini_Sapphire wrote: »

I wouldn't say that they all get paid more than their counterparts in the private sector but a substantial majority would particularly with the crackpot pensions a lot of public sector workers are receiving

You mean the pension that's keeps getting lower and likely not to be worth much when you need it?

Hilly Bill

Rootsblower wrote: »

Define a lottery like pension and who gets as many 'sick' days as they like , btw max entitlement in railway operations grades annual leave is 23 days after 7 years appointed service

I won a tenner on the lotto on Wednesday, maybe it's that.

GM228

murphthesmurf wrote: »

He's very lucky. If he ever loses that job and applies for another and they see he is a member of a trade union then the odds of him gettting that job will be greatly reduced. It is illegal I think to discriminate against someone for being in z union, but in reality it will lessen his chances. Thats life in the private sector.

Around 1 in 4* private sector workers are in a union, are you saying that's a disadvantage - if so that's nearly 25% of the private sector workforce which are disadvantaged.

*Based on the last survey on the issue which is 2009 - and estimated by ICTU recently to be at the same level.

devnull

Hilly Bill wrote: »

So those in the public sector pay their own wages plus the supplement those on the dole through the high taxes they pay? Is that the reason you begrudge the pay rise?

You do realise that what you are describing is a never ending vicious circle?

You're saying that we should be thankful that people are paying high tax because of the fact that they are on higher wages, but the reason that they're paying higher tax in the first place is because of higher cost of funding the public sector due to the increased wages.

The simple fact is your company cannot afford the approx €7m that the unions are asking for, whether you like it or not that is the facts, if you want some sort of rise then you will have to come up with ways of saving money through better work practices and efficiency measures to release funds that are tied up elsewhere in the business under current work practices.

People in Irish Rail are not vastly underpaid by any stretch of the imagination.

Hilly Bill

devnull wrote: »

You do realise that what you are describing is a never ending vicious circle?

You're saying that we should be thankful that people are paying high tax because of the fact that they are on higher wages, but the reason that they're paying higher tax in the first place is because of higher cost of funding the public sector due to the increased wages.

The simple fact is your company cannot afford the approx €7m that the unions are asking for, whether you like it or not that is the facts, if you want some sort of rise then you will have to come up with ways of saving money through better work practices and release funds that are tied up elsewhere in the business under current work practices.

People in Irish Rail are not vastly underpaid by any stretch of the imagination.

You seem to like adding a bit extra to my comments for some strange Reason. Never once did i say anything about anyone having to be thankful nor did i mention anything about anyone being underpaid.
The truth is you don't know anything about the crap that's going on internally nor the cost saving measures already put in place but once pay claims go in they want further cuts and measures whilst ignoring the cuts and measures that Already in place. Also ignoring an agreed pay rise of around 7%which was only paid to a certain few a few years ago whilst the rest are still waiting.

devnull

Hilly Bill wrote: »

You seem to like adding a bit extra to my comments for some strange Reason. Never once did i say anything about anyone having to be thankful nor did i mention anything about anyone being underpaid.

You are the one that said those in the public sector who are paying high tax were paying their own wages and supplementing those who were on the dole, not me, let me remind you of that.

The truth is you don't know anything about the crap that's going on internally nor the cost saving measures already put in place but once pay claims go in they want further cuts and measures whilst ignoring the cuts and measures that Already in place.

Generally when a company doesn't have money for a pay rise, which Irish Rail don't by the way, it's normal for the company to say that they can only offer a rise if there are changes to work practices and efficiency measures that are made which allow savings in other areas to free up funds for a pay rise.

The simple fact is Irish Rail cannot afford to give you a 3.5% pay rise just because you want it because it doesn't have the funds to do so.

Working class heroes

Hilly Bill wrote: »

You seem to like adding a bit extra to my comments for some strange Reason. Never once did i say anything about anyone having to be thankful nor did i mention anything about anyone being underpaid.
The truth is you don't know anything about the crap that's going on internally nor the cost saving measures already put in place but once pay claims go in they want further cuts and measures whilst ignoring the cuts and measures that Already in place. Also ignoring an agreed pay rise of around 7%which was only paid to a certain few a few years ago whilst the rest are still waiting.

Who got a 7% pay rise a few years ago? Drivers?

GM228

Hilly Bill wrote: »

The truth is you don't know anything about the crap that's going on internally nor the cost saving measures already put in place but once pay claims go in they want further cuts and measures whilst ignoring the cuts and measures that Already in place. Also ignoring an agreed pay rise of around 7%which was only paid to a certain few a few years ago whilst the rest are still waiting.

Isn't it amazing that there was an agreed pay rise of around 7% and oddly enough the unions have failed to state in any statements or WRC/LC submissions that they are simply looking for what was promised. Odd that.

The reality is that there were pay rises given to two grades (and it was not 7%), these were grade specific issues and the "certain few" grades who got it were the ones who it applied to, they also had strings attached.

You are obviously basing your claim on the doomed Social Partnership Agreement 2006-2015 (Towards 2016) because the CIE companies got the first 3% in 2006 and never got the further 7% of that agreement.