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Unions warn of train strike as staff demand pay increase

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    #122
    Infini
    Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Infini


    devnull wrote: »
    The staff are asking for a pay rise which the company cannot afford and the company have offered what it can afford in exchange for some productivity increases with that in mind.

    The problem though is its always the devil in the detail. If they offer a 1.5% pay rise but then sneak in a reduction in hours it's basically a pay cut and a reduction in terms. Noone would agree to that in any company.
    devnull wrote: »
    The company has not said that it wil go to the wall or may become insolvent soon because it has been underfunded, it is saying that it will go this way if they give the unions what they are asking for as they cannot afford it.

    The problem though is that they're saying they cant afford it but at the same time staff levels are far reduced but can spend money on fishing competitions and trips to France when it suits them. At the very least something is well off.
    devnull wrote: »
    The argument about the railway being underfunded would work a lot better if it wasn't being trotted out at the time people are looking for a rise, saying so now is just a pure smokescreen covering the desire for extra money to be spent on wages and nothing else.

    The problem though is that this issue was building up for a good long time now and I think its been going on for at least a year or 2. If there's a vote for strike I dont believe it will be about the money but rather the forced redeployments and reduced pay and conditions that the companys trying to sneak in.


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    #123
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,595 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Infini wrote: »
    The problem though is its always the devil in the detail. If they offer a 1.5% pay rise but then sneak in a reduction in hours it's basically a pay cut and a reduction in terms. Noone would agree to that in any company.

    Sometimes companies have to do unpopular things that people will not like in order to get the company back on an even keel, you can't moan that the company is drowning in debt on one hand and then when they try and do something to deal with that moan that you will lose out in pay.

    It's not the unions job to run the company and make operational decisions, the irony in Irish Rail is a large number of front line staff continually trot out the fact that it's not their job to help customers, make announcements, give travel advice, protect their revenue etc, but still feel it is their job to dictate how the company should be run despite the fact that is certainly not their job.
    The problem though is that they're saying they cant afford it but at the same time staff levels are far reduced but can spend money on fishing competitions and trips to France when it suits them. At the very least something is well off.

    Not really, the cost of those trips would probably be only a few thousand which is practically nothing in increased costs compared to the cost of giving all those staff a pay rise,

    - Irish Rail has approx 3,500 staff
    - The average wage is approx €60k
    - Staff are looking for a rise of 3.5%
    - 3.5% of €60k = €2,100
    - €2.100 x 3,500 = €7.35m

    Edit: See later, post, using slightly outdated figures on this one.


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    #124
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    mini_Sapphire wrote: »
    More money from a company going insolvent... you couldn't make it up. When they wind up on the dole queues they will have only themselves to blame

    It's not going to happen.


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    #125
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,595 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    We have had stats and it varies. Remember these private UK companies are making hundreds of millions in profits.

    They're making nowhere near that on rail franchises, the profit margin is very very thin despite what some parts of the media and the political spectrum are pointing out, it's about 2-3%, sometimes lower sometimes a little higher.
    For non drivers the forced redeployment is "I don't want to work" where they might have to interact with customers on trains.

    Exactly and at the moment the customer interaction and the staff attitude to customers with some exception on Irish Rail is perhaps the worst I've seen in many countries, many of them are disinterested, some of them are good but there is not enough of them.


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    #126
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    devnull wrote: »
    Sometimes companies have to do unpopular things that people will not like in order to get the company back on an even keel, you can't moan that the company is drowning in debt on one hand and then when they try and do something to deal with that moan that you will lose out in pay.

    It's not the unions job to run the company and make operational decisions, the irony in Irish Rail is a large number of front line staff continually trot out the fact that it's not their job to help customers, make announcements, give travel advice, protect their revenue etc, but still feel it is their job to dictate how the company should be run despite the fact that is certainly not their job.



    Not really, the cost of those trips would probably be only a few thousand which is practically nothing in increased costs compared to the cost of giving all those staff a pay rise,

    - Irish Rail has approx 3,500 staff
    - The average wage is approx €60k
    - Staff are looking for a rise of 3.5%
    - 3.5% of €60k = €2,100
    - €2.100 x 3,500 = €7.35m

    Average wage is not even close to 60 grand. Most would be under 40 k.
    You have an issue with the person at your local station but it's somehow manifested to a large number. I understand the need to add a bit of gravy to a story but there is no need to go all out bisto on it.


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    #127
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    devnull wrote: »
    They're making nowhere near that on rail franchises, the profit margin is very very thin despite what some parts of the media and the political spectrum are pointing out, it's about 2-3%, sometimes lower sometimes a little higher.



    Exactly and at the moment the customer interaction and the staff attitude to customers with some exception on Irish Rail is perhaps the worst I've seen in many countries, many of them are disinterested, some of them are good but there is not enough of them.
    It could be down to the fact that staff moral is at an all time low.


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    #128
    Ultimate Seduction
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,464 ✭✭✭Ultimate Seduction


    Not happy with your pay, get a job elsewhere. Go work in the UK if the money's so much better. Unions have there purpose, but they should not be allowed get away with this.


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    #129
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,595 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    Average wage is not even close to 60 grand. Most would be under 40 k.

    Sorry, I was using out of date figures, I'm now got the 2016 ones from Irish Rail's filled accounts and annual report which I will use exact figures from.

    - Irish Rail has 3,806 staff
    - The average wage is €54,876
    - Staff are looking for a rise of 3.5%
    - 3.5% of €54,876k = €1,920.66
    - €1,920.66 x 3,806 = €7.31m
    You have an issue with the person at your local station but it's somehow manifested to a large number. I understand the need to add a bit of gravy to a story but there is no need to go all out bisto on it.

    Actually it's about staff at several stations because I often am using 4-5 stations on a regular basis and the standard is pretty poor in all of them to be honest.


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    #130
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    Average wage is not even close to 60 grand. Most would be under 40 k.
    You have an issue with the person at your local station but it's somehow manifested to a large number. I understand the need to add a bit of gravy to a story but there is no need to go all out bisto on it.

    Based on the most recent report (2015) IE had 3,796 staff, their total wage bill was €204,266,000.

    That's an average of €53,810 per employee. Remember average does not necessarily represent the majority, but it is all we have to go on.

    Based on the 2015 figures a 1.5% pay rise would cost around an extra €3.063M whilst a 3.5% pay rise would cost around an rxtra €7.1M per year.


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    #131
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    Ultimate Seduction wrote: »
    Not happy with your pay, get a job elsewhere. Go work in the UK if the money's so much better. Unions have there purpose, but they should not be allowed get away with this.

    Get away with what? There was an agreement a few years years ago regarding pay which the new ceo refuses to acknowledge spouting the we can't pay rubbish yet able to find money to executives to new positions, fishing tournament and to hire 40 summer staff. Even when they owe you a once off payment they spout the same line. It's all a delaying tactic.


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    #132
    Infini
    Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Infini


    Ultimate Seduction wrote: »
    Not happy with your pay, get a job elsewhere. Go work in the UK if the money's so much better. Unions have there purpose, but they should not be allowed get away with this.

    Yeeeeeah considering the UK has shot themselves in the foot since last year I dont think anyone would consider that in the first place. But then again people do prefer to fight for their rights and such rather than roll over.


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    #133
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    GM228 wrote: »
    Based on the most recent report (2015) IE had 3,796 staff, their total wage bill was €204,266,000.

    That's an average of €53,810 per employee. Remember average does not necessarily represent the majority, but it is all we have to go on.

    Based on the 2015 figures a 1.5% pay rise would cost around an extra €3.063M whilst a 3.5% pay rise would cost around an rxtra €7.1M per year.

    Management would be the only ones near that as a basic.


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    #134
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,595 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    There was an agreement a few years years ago regarding pay which the new ceo refuses to acknowledge spouting the we can't pay rubbish yet able to find money to executives to new positions, fishing tournament and to hire 40 summer staff.

    As already stated, fishing trips will cost very little in comparison to giving a 3.5% pay rise to everyone in the the company which will cost over £7m based on Irish Rail's audited accounts lodged with the Companies Registration Office and their annual report published on their own website

    I'm not saying that they were right to do some of the actions that they did, I have nothing to comment on that, but simply saying that one can spent a few grand on a fishing trip etc means that they can afford to spend millions on pay rises is simply not credible because the company could pay for hundreds of those trips and still spend less money than they would spend by giving a 3.5% pay rise.,


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    #135
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,595 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    Management would be the only ones near that as a basic.

    How many managers do you think there are in Irish Rail?


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    #136
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    Management would be the only ones near that as a basic.

    Rubbish.

    CTC Signalmen, drivers and many other grades are already above or near to that average for their basic, some grades are even near to that for year 1.


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    Average wage is not even close to 60 grand. Most would be under 40 k.

    Even for example grade 4 (the lowest grade station operatives) are on €43k a year at year 10 (most are reaching year 10 now).


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    #137
    Marty Bird
    Registered Users Posts: 1,880 ✭✭✭Marty Bird


    This forced re-deployment what’s it all about ? Surely if a role no longer exists or is not needed you have to roll with it no ?

    🌞6.02kWp⚡️3.01kWp South/East⚡️3.01kWp West



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    #138
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    devnull wrote: »
    How many managers do you think there are in Irish Rail?

    Too many.


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    #139
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,595 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    Too many.

    So since you say there are too many, give us a ballpark figure since you must have a rough idea to come to the conclusion that there are too many.


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    #140
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    GM228 wrote: »
    Rubbish.

    CTC Signalmen, drivers and many other grades are already above or near to that average for their basic, some grades are even near to that for year 1.





    Even for example grade 4 (the lowest grade) station operatives are on €43k a year at year 10 (most are reaching year 10 now).


    Think again.


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    #141
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    Think again.

    About which part? It's all correct.


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    #142
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    devnull wrote: »
    So since you say there are too many, give us a ballpark figure since you must have a rough idea to come to the conclusion that there are too many.

    324 with 1 out sick.


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    #143
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    GM228 wrote: »
    About which part? It's all correct.

    Nowhere near it. Do you honestly think that the lowest grade is on over 800 a week?


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    #144
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,595 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    324 with 1 out sick.

    OK and how much do you reckon they are paid?


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    #145
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    Nowhere near it.

    OK so provide the figures if mine are nowhere near it?


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    324 with 1 out sick.

    Managerial positions or managers, there's a big difference, IE have about 50 managers.


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    #146
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    devnull wrote: »
    OK and how much do you reckon they are paid?

    Who?


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    #147
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    GM228 wrote: »
    OK so provide the figures if mine are nowhere near it?

    Lowest would be between 38 and 40 k with no sliding scale


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    #148
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    GM228 wrote: »
    OK so provide the figures if mine are nowhere near it?





    Managerial positions or managers, there's a big difference, IE have about 50 managers.

    You can double that with executives.


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    #149
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    Lowest would be between 38 and 40 k with no sliding scale

    For which grade? Your being very vague!


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    #150
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    The same one you think that they are getting over 40 k.


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    #151
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,595 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    Nowhere near it. Do you honestly think that the lowest grade is on over 800 a week?

    Personally I think the best thing to do in these situations is to get the figures from the horses mouth, such as a Freedom of Informaton request for the salary levels since that would be the very best source.

    See the attached.


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