Unions warn of train strike as staff demand pay increase

Hilly Bill

devnull wrote: »

But the thing is at the end of the day everything adds up and the company still have to pay it and on average staff are taking home approx €55k and that will rise to almost €60k if they get the rise that they are looking for, it's simply not feasible, whether you think overtime should count or not, the simple fact is that it still needs to be paid for and is a payroll cost whether you like it or not.

Overtime is just one of the top-ups that people in Irish Rail are getting, there is many more from shift premiums, bonuses and other perks that would make up the overall staffing cost to the company. Whatever way you want to dress it up the average employee is earning approx €55k a year and they want that to increase to approx 57k which will cost the company over €7m which is a hell of a lot of money for a company that is in financial difficulty.



I have to laugh about people saying that overtime does not matter, if it was taken away from the staff or subject to cuts like was proposed in Bus Eireann the staff would be out on their heals saying that they were losing a lot of take home pay as we saw in past strikes.

It's strange, overtime doesn't count when we are calculating someones salary and how much they are paid, but if someone is losing that pay or having cuts to overtime then suddenly it is counted as an example that they are losing a big cut of their take home pay.

Can you amend the bit that says that staff are earning 55 k to some staff are earning 55k.
If you was to be told on Monday that you was going to be taking home up to 30% less each week would you just bend over and take it without lube or would you have your say? If you felt that you haven't had a pay rise in a number of years would you ask or just stay quiet as a mouse and carry on?
What you have failed to realise that these pay claims has come as a result of management looking to make changes and not the management looking for changes as a result of a pay claim.

Hilly Bill

devnull wrote: »

A small number of people earning a lot makes very little difference because the numbers earning it are so small that is has only a small effect on the average pay, there'd also be some part timers who would drag the average figure down as well so it works both ways.

The Irish Rail Annual Report and accounts would by standard include all the employees over the whole company and the salary bill would include all of the salaries for the whole company as well, nobody would be left out of this because that is not how accounting practices work, you do not get to pick and choose what you include in your accounts.



There clearly is perks and top-ups in Irish Rail because the unions have been going on about them in the past and lest remember in Bus Eireann there was a whole document circulated by the company detailing a large number of additional payments, premiums and perks that were going to be cut despite the fact some on here said they previously didn't exist.



Do you really think that if they started cutting the overtime rates, allowances and other additions to your basic wage, the staff would just accept that, or would they go to the press Bus Eireann style turning around and saying that they have lost x% of take home pay even though their basic wage was untouched?

Care to mention these perks and top ups?
If you are doing the same job the you have a legit reason to hold onto whatever you are getting.
If the job that. you are doing ceases to be and you get moved somewhere else then you loose the expenses etc.

Night Falls

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Can you amend the bit that says that staff are earning 55 k to some staff are earning 55k.

What part of average don't you understand?

Infini

Hilly Bill wrote: »

They can't lower your basic, the only thing that you could loose is overtime and allowances and not a lot that you can do about that.

True but what they want is to push alot of these station workers onto the customer service thing which is a lower hours contract.

devnull

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Can you amend the bit that says that staff are earning 55 k to some staff are earning 55k.

I'm simply said that staff are earning almost €55k on average.

These are the facts.

If you was to be told on Monday that you was going to be taking home up to 30% less each week would you just bend over and take it without lube or would you have your say?

You are the one who said overtime didn't count, not me.

If my company was close to being insolvent I wouldn't be asking for a pay rise at the end of the day and this thread is about staff who are asking for a pay rise and I think it's most unwise at the moment, since they are not badly paid at all.

GM228

Hilly Bill wrote: »

How many on that list was on over 60 grand as a basic?

Just 8 grades.

IE will not release the information, but based on 2014 information they gave 25% of staff were earning a basic of over €56k, based on 2016 staff numbers that would be about 950 staff.

Something we seem to have overlooked is that the average we have calculated includes overtime as it is the total wage bill, but we are comparing basic rates, the current overtime bill is €13M so if you remove that to factor in an accurate basic average it is around €50k per year bringing even more near or over the average basic.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

I didn't claim 325 managers, i just said too many.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

devnull wrote: »

So since you say there are too many, give us a ballpark figure since you must have a rough idea to come to the conclusion that there are too many.

324 with 1 out sick.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

I posted a random number because it was a bit dull to ask for a ball park figure.

So you posted a random figure meaning you had no idea and still tried to argue I was wrong, very credible.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

The truth is that you Googled a set of figures and assumed that everyone must be on the top rate for that grade.

The truth is Google will not give you those figures, go try. I gave very specific rates, do you think I could do such without having all that in front of me?

I never assumed nor claimed everyone must be on any particular rate either - but I do know that the majority of the staff I mentioned are nearing the upper rates of their grades. Considering IE have not mass recruited in most grades (gate keeper, customer services and maintenance related excepted) in 10 years it does not take a genius to work out that most station operatives are at or near year 10, and for your information I have a lot of information to hand on the matter due to my links with the industrial relations world and don't need to go Googling for it.

In any case how I got my information is irrelevant, it was corroberated - at least I didn't give random figures because ball park figures are dull.

Infini

I wont doubt the information GM228 has its reasonably accurate. I would only argue over saying the average wage is 60k when its not excluding optional overtime as its not reliable unlike on a basic pay scale.

As for the threat of a strike the pay is an easy catch all but there is other issues at play. Trust I believe on the last employee survey is that around 57% of the staff distrust management. This is a result of the way management have generally acted towards their own staff over the years and led to a buildup of animousity.

GM228

Infini wrote: »

I would only argue over saying the average wage is 60k when its not excluding optional overtime as its not reliable unlike on a basic pay scale.

As pointed out so many times the average IS €54,876 - no one is claiming it is €60k.

The annual OT bill is around €13M, factor that out and average wage is around €51,731 (not 100% accurate for the average basic but close enough).

devnull

Infini wrote: »

I wont doubt the information GM228 has its reasonably accurate. I would only argue over saying the average wage is 60k when its not excluding optional overtime as its not reliable unlike on a basic pay scale.

They never said €60k, I said rougly €60k this morning but since edited that post and said I was using out of date figures and to see the later post, I made a post at 11:55am I stated that the average pay was just under €55k and referenced my sources which was the 2016 Irish Rail annual report.

The source I used for all my figures were official documents released by Irish Rail such as a Freedom of Information request which is contained on their website, their auditied accounts from the companies registration office and their annual reports which can be found on their website.

Jamie2k9

GM228 wrote: »

More up to date.

And the figures I provided are confirmed:-

Grade Code|Description|Contract Hours|Min of Scale|Max of Scale
S34|CTC Signalpersons 39 - 48 Hr Arrangement|48|51596.29|58632.58
V48|Loco Driver 39/48 Hour Arrangement|48|43716.99|55238.59
S11|Station Operative Grade 4 39/48 Hour|48|33391.58|43650.22

Also confirms exactly 50 managers/executives as of December 2015.

I rest my case.

This data does not include the pay restoration which took place in November 2016?

GM228

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

This data does not include the pay restoration which took place in November 2016?

It does, the rates never changed, rather there was a deduction or "foregoing of pay" made for legal reasons.

pjohnson

trellheim wrote: »

Are we going to do the DB, LUAS and BE strike threads again or will this one be more or less fun or can we just repost greatest hits lol

Until something is done about Unions this cycle will keep going. I thought they'd wait until mid-term/new year to pull their next stunt but they went earlier.

bebeman

When BE where on strike the government said there is no money, you cant have a pay rise.
One week after they went back to work without their grievences solved, in a act of hubris the government announced it was going to spend 1,000,000,000 on transport, it rubbbed salt into the wound.
Anyone who works for IE.BE.DB can tell you the number of Free Travel Passes in use today is off the chart, it is staggering how many people have them, yet the money paid by government has not increased in years. Just one example of underfunding.
Outsiders really have no idea what is going on, the media have you believing IE.BE.DB are the bad guys, but you dont know a tenth of what is going on in the day to day running of these companies. (hint) outside interference.

XPS_Zero

end of the road wrote: »

XPS_Zero wrote: »

yOU KNOW IN real jobs in the real world every little thing you might be asked to do is not LITERALLY listed in your contract?

i do yes. because i'm in a real job in the real world. and i don't get obligated to do things that aren't part of my job description.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

It's called flexibility.

no it's called being asked to do things that aren't part of the job. in relation to the topic at hand, i would agree that what devnull suggested should be part of the job of station staff, so the company have to implement that in the contracts.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Already that's a major thing, but if they were actually you know...good...at customer service the public would never tolerate them being crapped on they'd support them in industrial action. It's not unions protecting terms and conditions and preventing abuse people hate it's unions protecting sloth, inefficiency and laziness that is why when CIE and the likes of DSP and HSE go on strike nobody supports them because peoples personal experience with those agencies is nearly universally negative, because they've no customer service ethos they don't see themselves as a public service they see the public as an irritation or annoyance they are burdened with dealing with.

no it's because they are jealous of the terms conditions and wages. i have had bad experiences over the years with state agencies however if the staff feel they have a genuine greevence then they have a genuine greevence and my support will be on the basis of the information rather then my experiences of the agency. unions protect terms and conditions only, it's up to the company to deal with inefficientsy and lazy staff.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Were trying to tell you that if you took up that ethos (widely, I know SOME have it in those agencies though not many) it would HELP you and get you more support.

no it wouldn't. it really wouldn't.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Don't blindly just rely on the fact that as state employees you can never be fired, those days are going to ebb away. You need a base of public support and you won't get it by sayin "sarry luve dats not in me contract".

no no . the luas and plenty of other strikes which have had little public support, have shown us that while a base of public support is nice, it ultimately doesn't help the workers get a good deal.

Ok....sorry guys but I can't deal with this new quote system it may be that it's just crap or my browser or that it confuses me but it comes up as fragmented and duplicates itself several times when I try to use it, ingraining my replies with past posts quoted...I can't use it.

Anyway...

Job description is a wide category, in no real job in the real world (the public sector does NOT count as such, any of it, it's a protected bubble with work practices that would never be tolerated outside) lists EVERY SINGLE POSSIBLE thing you might be asked to do and expecing that is irrational and inflexible.
Being asked to drive a train when you work on the customer desks is "not part of your job", but being asked to do general work around the station is perfectly reasonable...you see this is the EXACT thing about the PS that frustrates those of us in the private sector and robs you of any support, you are so inflexible you can't even compute mentally doing something remotly flexible unless it's added into the contract, and we both know what will happen when IE try to do that, it will drag out for months or years and come with a slew of pay and allowance demands....all of this is EXACTLY what is robbing PS of support and destroying the whole idea of unions in the public mindset...this right here RIGHT HERE is it.
No were not f----g jealous of your T and C's we don't expect a special allowance because we work on an island ffsake were not that unreasonable!  Sure we'd like higher pay but it's not the higher pay we have a problem with it's the inflexibility and absurd allowances. THe hilarious but also incredibly frustrating thing is you are in this very post DEMONSTRATING exactly the problem with your mindset, you can't even conceive that we mind honestly and genuinely think you are being inflexible and just dismiss us as jealous...but were not just other workers were also your paymasters AND customers so you ought to care what we think because who we elect decides if these insane policies keep going and eventually this kind of attitude will (mark my bloody words) trigger a backlash so severe the baby will go out with the bathwater and even the good things PS unions have fought for will be gone too, you are shooting yourselves and future workers in the foot in the long run with this intransigent inflexible attitude.

"it's up to the company to deal with lazy staff and inefficiency"
But tha'ts just it!!..where do you think the inefficiency CAME from?  The second IE managers come up with an idea to fix it the union with throw a tantrum, threaten strikes and say it will make the sky fall, so it never happens.

You just ended that post literally saying a proper customer service ethos and attitude change would not get you more support, .....that speaks for itself.

In that post you have just proved, by your own words and attitude on display, everything I was saying...and I gotta tell you it honestly scares the hell out of me not because I'd have a problem (and I wont when the time comes) steamrolling over all of you to force reform on you, but because I worry someone more reactionary than me is going to get into the job because of tis kind of attitude ^^ and throw the baby out with the bathwater, you are undermining the very idea of unions with this attitude.

hmmm

bebeman wrote: »

yet the money paid by government has not increased in years. Just one example of underfunding.

Why should the government pay more money, just to see it disappear into the pockets of workers?

The union are playing a very weak hand here, I don't see what their strategy is. BE at least had a monopoly stranglehold on certain services, and even they largely capitulated. All that a strike is going to do is highlight how little we depend on train services, and how impotent the union is.

Perhaps it's just window dressing by the union bosses to placate militants, because they must know full well what the outcome will be.

Jamie2k9

bebeman wrote: »

When BE where on strike the government said there is no money, you cant have a pay rise.
One week after they went back to work without their grievences solved, in a act of hubris the government announced it was going to spend 1,000,000,000 on transport, it rubbbed salt into the wound.
Anyone who works for IE.BE.DB can tell you the number of Free Travel Passes in use today is off the chart, it is staggering how many people have them, yet the money paid by government has not increased in years. Just one example of underfunding.
Outsiders really have no idea what is going on, the media have you believing IE.BE.DB are the bad guys, but you dont know a tenth of what is going on in the day to day running of these companies. (hint) outside interference.

Bad guys??, people are fed up with the same merry go round (annually at this stage) from CIE workers about pay and productivity.

Demand, Talks, Ballot, Strike, Talks, Sorted, you get the same outcome with minor changes every time. Just take yesterdays talks, there was always one outcome and has been for the last 6 months. IE offered something unreasonable because they knew there was just no point in offering anything else as a strike was guaranteed. Why play your hand when you will be back at the table in 6 weeks again.

Most know CIE are no prefect however I don't think staff help themselves and in particular your representatives.

XPS_Zero

bebeman wrote: »

When BE where on strike the government said there is no money, you cant have a pay rise.
One week after they went back to work without their grievences solved, in a act of hubris the government announced it was going to spend  1,000,000,000 on transport,  it rubbbed salt into the wound.
Anyone who works for IE.BE.DB can tell you the number of Free Travel Passes in use today is off the chart, it is staggering how many people have them, yet the money paid by government has not increased in years. Just one example of underfunding.
Outsiders really have no idea what is going on, the media have you believing IE.BE.DB are the bad guys,  but you dont know a tenth of  what is going on in the day to day running of these companies.  (hint) outside interference.

The govt never said there was no money for transport, they said there was no money in BE for the demands being made and that was a statement of indisputable fact the unions refused to accept.  Their company was going bankrupt and they wanted the state to divert cash from education and healthcare and social welfare to prop it up, which was unacceptable to both the govt and voters.  They said they were not getting out the chequebook to fix BE because Expressway is a commercial company not PSO.  They did not say there was no money for transport, there are plenty of great transport infrastructure projects the state can fund, tossing good money after bad into BE would have been foolish.
Which is why the unions had to come back to earth and a more reasonable deal was worked out.
Free Travel costs 0.7% of the national budget and is paid for by the DSP not CIE, recent research also suggests it is self funding in what it saves the healthcare system in both mental and physical health costs that's without getting into what it puts into local economies along rail and bus routes.  25% of passengers have them that is not "staggering", you are confusing anecdotal evidence of occasions where you personally saw a lot of people in a row with one with most people having them, 1/4 have them.  The numbers have been going up because of demographics in a trend that started in the late 80s , the population is getting older by average, that's all.
FT provides a big subsidy to CIE without which it would have to raise ticket prices to compensate and this would only be offset with a slight increase in fares from former FT users who would stop using it except for essential travel. 
Funding was increased in the last budget and will be again in the next one according to even this govt.  So don't be worrying about a minor welfare program worry more about the nasty financial state of your companies which can't seem to get their act togtther for some reason (union intransigence and refusal to accept reality being one factor)
The outside interference is the NTA who have dragged you kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

bebeman

hmmm wrote: »

The union are playing a very weak hand here, I don't see what their strategy is. BE at least had a monopoly stranglehold on certain services, and even they largely capitulated. All that a strike is going to do is highlight how little we depend on train services, and how impotent the union is.
.

As country folk love to tell everyone the government only cares about Dublin.
If the Dart goes on strike, it will cause problems, Dublin Bus are as close to capacity as can be on routes that run near the Dart. The Dart carries a lot of people who will now have to use cars to get to work, the city is already a nightmare for traffic, what do you think will happen when thousands of extra cars are on the road?
It will mess up Dublin Bus for starters, traffic will grind to a halt in Dublin, we will then see if the country folk are correct.

XPS_Zero

They're not correct.

BE strike affected Dublin too eventually in many ways even from the start...nobody cared, it didn't make more money appear in BEs account, it just made people get Swords Express and Aircoach and Translink instead.   If they shut down the capital over a pay dispute when they are in protected jobs with 100% security something none of those people inconvenienced will enjoy when some of them are hitting between 700 and 1000 a week that will only backfire just like it did on BE and you will get nowhere.
It's not the 70s anymore lads, and any credibility PS unions had they destroyed themselves long ago with this exact kind of behavior, going into even comic territory striking over new trains at one stage.

Jamie2k9

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/irish-rail-say-strike-can-be-averted-as-unions-ballot-on-action-over-arrogant-and-incredible-demands-807708.html

Corporate Communications Manager with Irish Rail, Barry Kenny, says he believes strike action can be avoided.

He said: "It definitely can be averted. We will go back to the Workplace Relations Commission immediately on this and if it can't be resolved, we will take that referral at the Labour Court as the Labour Court set out.

"We do hope that the ballot process is put aside and the trade unions re-engage with us, because everybody loses if we have a dispute.

"We will lose financially and be in an even worse position in terms of trying to respond to the employees' wish for improved earnings."

Hilly Bill

Night Falls wrote: »

What part of average don't you understand?

The bit thats included the wage of the ceo and senior management whilst working out the average and the wage of those that are not looking for a pay rise.

Hilly Bill

Infini wrote: »

True but what they want is to push alot of these station workers onto the customer service thing which is a lower hours contract.

You'll get paid the same basic.

Hilly Bill

devnull wrote: »

I'm simply said that staff are earning almost €55k on average.

These are the facts.



You are the one who said overtime didn't count, not me.

If my company was close to being insolvent I wouldn't be asking for a pay rise at the end of the day and this thread is about staff who are asking for a pay rise and I think it's most unwise at the moment, since they are not badly paid at all.

Some staff are, if i was on that much i wouldn't be looking for a pay rise.

devnull

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Some staff are, if i was on that much i wouldn't be looking for a pay rise.

But it is still the average at the end of the day.

Del.Monte

I wouldn't minding betting that all the Union heads, the CIE management and others at the failed talks went home afterwards in their 2017 cars. Todd Andrews West Cork style in reverse.

Hilly Bill

devnull wrote: »

But it is still the average at the end of the day.

Would you begrudge someone on 35 k a pay rise?

eeguy

Will a strike achieve much?

The LUAS drivers arguably didn't get much, when you weigh the cost of lost pay against the few % increment.
BE drivers hardly got anything after their strikes.

Will IE actually achieve anything?

kingshankly

I see all this 55k figure banded about this past few pages these are 48 hour contacts which equates to 44.5k for 39 hours plus all overtime is on a flat rate basis

Jamie2k9

eeguy wrote: »

Will a strike achieve much?

The LUAS drivers arguably didn't get much, when you weigh the cost of lost pay against the few % increment.
BE drivers hardly got anything after their strikes.

Will IE actually achieve anything?

Not a lot, just annoying the public even more.

devnull

kingshankly wrote: »

I see all this 55k figure banded about this past few pages these are 48 hour contacts which equates to 44.5k for 39 hours plus all overtime is on a flat rate basis

All my figures were based on confirmed figures based in legally binding documents and company reports and Freedom of Information request files, these are not numbers that I have came up with myself or just posted on a message board without being able to back them up, they're actual factual numbers.

Hours doesn't even come into this because of the fact hours are not mentioned anywhere in these documents so othat is why I haven't mentioned them because it's impossible to bring a figure into a factually based calculation if you have no facts based on official published sources to back up such figures.

The below are facts:
- Irish Rail has 3,806 staff
- The total cost of payroll is €208,861,000
- The average wage (payroll divided by staff) is €54,876
- Staff are looking for a rise of 3.5%
- 3.5% of €54,876k = €1,920.66
- €1,920.66 x 3,806 = €7.31m