Unions warn of train strike as staff demand pay increase

murphthesmurf

Infini wrote: »

There's no lunch allowances etc except maybe in the Driving Grade where your out of depot but I think thats been gone a while.

Lunch allowance hahahahahahaha you couldn't make it up

end of the road

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Ok....sorry guys but I can't deal with this new quote system it may be that it's just crap or my browser or that it confuses me but it comes up as fragmented and duplicates itself several times when I try to use it, ingraining my replies with past posts quoted...I can't use it.

Anyway...

Job description is a wide category, in no real job in the real world (the public sector does NOT count as such, any of it, it's a protected bubble with work practices that would never be tolerated outside) lists EVERY SINGLE POSSIBLE thing you might be asked to do and expecing that is irrational and inflexible.
Being asked to drive a train when you work on the customer desks is "not part of your job", but being asked to do general work around the station is perfectly reasonable...you see this is the EXACT thing about the PS that frustrates those of us in the private sector and robs you of any support, you are so inflexible you can't even compute mentally doing something remotly flexible unless it's added into the contract, and we both know what will happen when IE try to do that, it will drag out for months or years and come with a slew of pay and allowance demands....all of this is EXACTLY what is robbing PS of support and destroying the whole idea of unions in the public mindset...this right here RIGHT HERE is it.
No were not f----g jealous of your T and C's we don't expect a special allowance because we work on an island ffsake were not that unreasonable! Sure we'd like higher pay but it's not the higher pay we have a problem with it's the inflexibility and absurd allowances. THe hilarious but also incredibly frustrating thing is you are in this very post DEMONSTRATING exactly the problem with your mindset, you can't even conceive that we mind honestly and genuinely think you are being inflexible and just dismiss us as jealous...but were not just other workers were also your paymasters AND customers so you ought to care what we think because who we elect decides if these insane policies keep going and eventually this kind of attitude will (mark my bloody words) trigger a backlash so severe the baby will go out with the bathwater and even the good things PS unions have fought for will be gone too, you are shooting yourselves and future workers in the foot in the long run with this intransigent inflexible attitude.

"it's up to the company to deal with lazy staff and inefficiency"
But tha'ts just it!!..where do you think the inefficiency CAME from? The second IE managers come up with an idea to fix it the union with throw a tantrum, threaten strikes and say it will make the sky fall, so it never happens.

You just ended that post literally saying a proper customer service ethos and attitude change would not get you more support, .....that speaks for itself.

In that post you have just proved, by your own words and attitude on display, everything I was saying...and I gotta tell you it honestly scares the hell out of me not because I'd have a problem (and I wont when the time comes) steamrolling over all of you to force reform on you, but because I worry someone more reactionary than me is going to get into the job because of tis kind of attitude ^^ and throw the baby out with the bathwater, you are undermining the very idea of unions with this attitude.

you aren't my pay master so i have no obligation to care what you think. i work in the private sector. all that the ps unions fought for is slowly being eroded anyway, so this supposed back-clash won't do anything more then what is being done all ready. i'm not shooting myself in the foot by supporting the right to strike. you will not be able to steam roll over anyone.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

The outside interference is the NTA who have dragged you kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

their interference has brought only 1 improvement to rail and that was the phoenix park tunnel service. after that, they have done little.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

They're not correct.

BE strike affected Dublin too eventually in many ways even from the start...nobody cared, it didn't make more money appear in BEs account, it just made people get Swords Express and Aircoach and Translink instead. If they shut down the capital over a pay dispute when they are in protected jobs with 100% security something none of those people inconvenienced will enjoy when some of them are hitting between 700 and 1000 a week that will only backfire just like it did on BE and you will get nowhere.
It's not the 70s anymore lads, and any credibility PS unions had they destroyed themselves long ago with this exact kind of behavior, going into even comic territory striking over new trains at one stage.

the ps unions have not destroyed their credibility, their credibility is fully intact. the striking over the new trains was necessary otherwise it wouldn't have happened.

ED E

Sean O Rourke made the SIPTU rep look like a complete tool. Fair play to him.


Thankfully automation is coming down the tracks faster than the Shinkansen.

end of the road

ED E wrote: »

Sean O Rourke made the SIPTU rep look like a complete tool. Fair play to him.


Thankfully automation is coming down the tracks faster than the Shinkansen.

not the type of automation you think. there has been small bits of automation on the railway for a while, that will get more extensive gradually but a driver of some sorts will still be required due to the costs of fully segregating the railway.

Cookie_Monster

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Would you begrudge someone on 35 k a pay rise?

depends what they do to earn it. Could still be over or under paid earning that amount

If this does go to strike action, whats the possibility of line closures eventually? The company seems to want them.

Hilly Bill

devnull wrote: »

All my figures were based on confirmed figures based in legally binding documents and company reports and Freedom of Information request files, these are not numbers that I have came up with myself or just posted on a message board without being able to back them up, they're actual factual numbers.

Hours doesn't even come into this because of the fact hours are not mentioned anywhere in these documents so othat is why I haven't mentioned them because it's impossible to bring a figure into a factually based calculation if you have no facts based on official published sources to back up such figures.

The below are facts:
- Irish Rail has 3,806 staff
- The total cost of payroll is €208,861,000
- The average wage (payroll divided by staff) is €54,876
- Staff are looking for a rise of 3.5%
- 3.5% of €54,876k = €1,920.66
- €1,920.66 x 3,806 = €7.31m

You love your stats don't you 😀.
Deduct the wages of the ceo and the top brass and executives who are against the pay claim and let's see a more realistic figure.
Seen that there are a good number of people under that average wage of yours then they have a ligitimate grounds for a pay rise.

ED E

Hilly Bill wrote: »

You love your stats don't you 😀.
Deduct the wages of the ceo and the top brass and executives who are against the pay claim and let's see a more realistic figure.
Seen that there are a good number of people under that average wage of yours then they have a ligitimate grounds for a pay rise.

2013:
"The documents reveal that in total there are 46 people in Irish Rail being paid more than €100,000"

So lets be generous, call it 200k x 46. Its probably a lot less. But even then 9,200,000€ is only 4.4%. Miniscule.

People love to C level bash but the cost of upper management in a large organization is pretty tiny. Can be jealous all you like but Devs figures are honest.

Staff have increments already, what they want is a raise^2.

devnull

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Deduct the wages of the ceo and the top brass and executives who are against the pay claim and let's see a more realistic figure.

I used actual sourced figures for my calculations rather than plucking ones out of thin air or speculating because those were figures that can be verified to be true rather than ones which I could not verify.

But if you want to take out the wages of the top brass and you can supply concrete exact proven figures from a solid official source for how many of them there are and the total amount of wages they are using, I'm happy to deduct such proven figures from my own proven figures.

But if we're going to deduct the outliers at the top because they are not representative of the majority of the staff in Irish Rail and are pushing the average up then we're going to have to deduct the outliers at the bottom as well which would be the part time workers who are working little hours and earning little wages which drag the average down.

Seen that there are a good number of people under that average wage of yours then they have a ligitimate grounds for a pay rise.

Just because you are below the company average doesn't mean that you are due a pay rise, that's just pure folly because that argument could be used for any situation since due to mathematical theory, there always will be people who are below average because of the way averages work.

Jamie2k9

Deleted User wrote: »

If this does go to strike action, whats the possibility of line closures eventually? The company seems to want them.

0 chance of a line closure. I wouldn't necessary say the company wants it however they would prefer if those lines were better funded. Unions would prefer if that better funding when on pay rather than anything else.

There is no if about the strike action, a ballot is certain to pass. Unions have no interest in going back to the WRC.

eeguy

Going to be another BE strike.

The unions have nothing to bring to the table. Just a load of threats. If the country could get by without BE for a few weeks they can surely get by without IE.

Private busses and BE will fill the void no problem.

LXFlyer

ED E wrote: »

Sean O Rourke made the SIPTU rep look like a complete tool. Fair play to him.


Thankfully automation is coming down the tracks faster than the Shinkansen.

Let's be realistic - automation in terms of driving trains on Irish railways is a long way off and thinking otherwise is disengenuous.

end of the road

eeguy wrote: »

Going to be another BE strike.

according to who?

eeguy wrote: »

The unions have nothing to bring to the table. Just a load of threats. If the country could get by without BE for a few weeks they can surely get by without IE.

only the unions will know whether they have something to bring to the table or not. the country can struggle hugely without IE for a very short time, it will be hugely difficult for the rail users, who will have to deal with inferior options however. i would be surprised if an IE strike will last anywhere near as long as the BE strike which was over a large number of issues.

eeguy wrote: »

Private busses and BE will fill the void no problem.

more likely it will be the car as that is usually the second best option for a lot of rail users.

murphthesmurf

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Would you begrudge someone on 35 k a pay rise?

35k for what though? An 'operative' yes, it's too much. A train driver maybe a small rise.
In the private sector to get 35k you would need qualifications and experience in a skilled trade.
It is the tax payer who will end up funding these pay rises through increased public transport grants. Private sector employees have to EARN any pay rises they might get through up skilling, doing extra tasks, increased productivity. I was given a raise recently which is linked to KPI's if I don't acheive them, I don't get the extra money.
Yet EI, BE, and the tram drivers just come with their little pot like Oliver asking for more money just 'because'. Out of some kind of entitlement. That we the private sector tax payers will eventually pay for through our taxes and increased rail fare.
You will get it though, as the government lacks the back bone to do anything. If you assembled all of the vertebrae you could find in the dall you still couldn't assemble a single spine. We should take the hit now and let it sink. Then build a better rail company free from jobs worths and excessive unjustified salaries. No where in the private sector in any job in any company working any hours would an operative earn 35k.

Hilly Bill

35k in the private sector is the result of taking it up the rear and not looking for better pay.

Hilly Bill

ED E wrote: »

2013:
"The documents reveal that in total there are 46 people in Irish Rail being paid more than €100,000"

So lets be generous, call it 200k x 46. Its probably a lot less. But even then 9,200,000€ is only 4.4%. Miniscule.

People love to C level bash but the cost of upper management in a large organization is pretty tiny. Can be jealous all you like but Devs figures are honest.

Staff have increments already, what they want is a raise^2.

Far from jealous.

murphthesmurf

Hilly Bill wrote: »

35k in the private sector is the result of taking it up the rear and not looking for better pay.

It's the real world, not a public funded bubble. No company would pay 35k for an unskilled operative who could be replaced in a heart beat. You would be told if you don't like it there is the door. Take a look on jobs.ie or similar and find me an 'operative' position paying over 25k.

GM228

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Night Falls wrote: »

What part of average don't you understand?

The bit thats included the wage of the ceo and senior management whilst working out the average and the wage of those that are not looking for a pay rise.

 

Hilly Bill wrote: »

You love your stats don't you 😀.
Deduct the wages of the ceo and the top brass and executives who are against the pay claim and let's see a more realistic figure.
Seen that there are a good number of people under that average wage of yours then they have a ligitimate grounds for a pay rise.

Don't you realise that deducting the CEOs wage would lower the average thus bringing even more people closer and over the average?

Honestly, I think deducting the CEO and management wage will not make much of the difference to the average wage.

Peppa Pig

So, with kicking the WRC into touch, refusing the labour court, ballot and strike notice what is the earliest these boys and girls can go on strike?

Need to get my horse organised.

GM228

Hilly Bill wrote: »

35k in the private sector is the result of taking it up the rear and not looking for better pay.

€35k in the private sector is still just over €1k above the average of pay in the private sector so perhaps those on €35k in the private sector did look for a better pay deal?

Edit: Had public sector in there twice, should all be private sector.

Hilly Bill

murphthesmurf wrote: »

It's the real world, not a public funded bubble. No company would pay 35k for an unskilled operative who could be replaced in a heart beat. You would be told if you don't like it there is the door. Take a look on jobs.ie or similar and find me an 'operative' position paying over 25k.

You will still get ****e pay if you keep settling for it

Hilly Bill

GM228 wrote: »

€35k in the private sector is still just over €1k above the average of pay in the public sector so perhaps those on €35k in the public sector did look for a better pay deal?

They should keep looking.

turbbo

GM228 wrote: »

€35k in the private sector is still just over €1k above the average of pay in the public sector so perhaps those on €35k in the public sector did look for a better pay deal?

This countries working population are being taxed out of it for the last 10 years ever since the banks had to be paid off. Doesn't matter if you make a decent wage now as half of it is taken off you wether you're public sector or private.

When economists go public and tell us we need increased taxes I go mental - what to we get for these taxes? All I see that we get after a tax increase is another one.

:mad:

GM228

Peppa Pig wrote: »

So, with kicking the WRC into touch, refusing the labour court, ballot and strike notice what is the earliest these boys and girls can go on strike?

Need to get my horse organised.

End of October most likely.

GM228

GM228 wrote: »

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Night Falls wrote: »

What part of average don't you understand?

The bit thats included the wage of the ceo and senior management whilst working out the average and the wage of those that are not looking for a pay rise.

 

Hilly Bill wrote: »

You love your stats don't you 😀.
Deduct the wages of the ceo and the top brass and executives who are against the pay claim and let's see a more realistic figure.
Seen that there are a good number of people under that average wage of yours then they have a ligitimate grounds for a pay rise.

 

Don't you realise that deducting the CEOs wage would lower the average thus bringing even more people closer and over the average?

Honestly, I think deducting the CEO and management wage will not make much of the difference to the average wage.

As I suspected.

Current figure:-

Staff - 3806
2016 Wage Bill - €208,861,000
Average wage - €54,876 per staff member


CEO is on €225,000 per year.

We will also assume the 50 managers are all earning the top rate of €133,397 (they most definately are not, in 2013 only 88 people in the entire CIE group were earning over €100,000, but for the sake of the arguement we will pretend they are = €6,669,850).

So we now run with:-

Staff - 3755
2016 Wage Bill - €202,431,150
Average wage - €53,909 per staff member

Not much difference is it - even with applying the maximum rate to all managers.

Further to that take away the annual €13M OT bill which most likely does not apply to managers and you now have an average of €50,447.

Geuze

GM228 wrote: »

€35k in the private sector is still just over €1k above the average of pay in the public sector so perhaps those on €35k in the public sector did look for a better pay deal?

Average FT earnings in Ireland = 45k approx.

GM228

Geuze wrote: »

Average FT earnings in Ireland = 45k approx.

Not in the private sector, the average in the private sector is €33,900.

Average in the public sector is €47,400.

Average of all workers (when both private and public sector are combined ) is €36,919 or €45,611 when you take account of full time workers only.

turbbo

GM228 wrote: »

Not in the private sector, the average in the private sector is €33,900.

Average in the public sector is €47,400.

Average of all workers (when both private and public sector are combined )is €45,611.

Private sector is full of part timers - comparison is skewed completely. And I'm speaking as a private sector worker.

Main problem is this constant crap of pitching private sector against state employees - the real elephant in the room is the massive income tax we pay with nothing being contributed to a guaranteed pension like they do in civilised countries that have comparative rates of tax.
Future is grim here.

turbbo

Hilly Bill wrote: »

They should keep looking.

Not only that they are free to look for state jobs that pay so well too!
afaik there's nothing stopping people applying for state jobs and even getting them?

GM228

turbbo wrote: »

Private sector is full of part timers - comparison is skewed completely. And I'm speaking as a private sector worker.

There are part time workers also in the public sector, thouugh not as much in fairness, 10.6% of total labour costs accross both sectors account for part time workers.