Administrative Officer 2017 Campaign

hardybuck

Halloween Jack wrote: »

No

Those are the Departments that traditionally took AOs in the main. They're still the ones who take on most of the AOs. DPER were Finance then obviously, but they have the same culture.

It's only relatively recently that others took them on, and in much smaller numbers. Justice would be an example of one who've taken a lot on in recent years.

Halloween Jack

hardybuck wrote: »

Those are the Departments that traditionally took AOs in the main. They're still the ones who take on most of the AOs. DPER were Finance then obviously, but they have the same culture.

It's only relatively recently that others took them on, and in much smaller numbers. Justice would be an example of one who've taken a lot on in recent years.

Well whatever they were calling environment were taking them on in the 70’s. I’m sure health and others also were.

hardybuck

Halloween Jack wrote: »

Well whatever they were calling environment were taking them on in the 70’s. I’m sure health and others also were.

Yeah like one or two in the Department, working in 'the policy area'. I think in recent years more staff are asked to work on a mixture of policy and operations as part of their roles now than ever before. Even now, Environment would have taken only a very small number in recent years.

There was also a policy up until the last few years or so where AOs needed to spend a year working in another Department before they were eligable for promotion. This helped to spread them around a bit.

AO as a grade is older than the State.

billyhead

I would think in some offices where a newly promoted Heo comes in and is working alongside as the atmosphere could be toxic in that there practically doing the same work although there is a big chasm in their wages.

The_Conductor

billyhead wrote: »

I would think in some offices where a newly promoted Heo comes in and is working alongside as the atmosphere could be toxic in that there practically doing the same work although there is a big chasm in their wages.

If they are working alongside one another- there should be clear water between their respective roles. AO is not a staff management position- it is a graduate recruitment post- with a reasonable expectation that the post holder is in a policy development role of some type or description. HEO- is a staff managerial role- and while there could be some policy development work associated with the role- more often than not, it would be more an implemenetation type role- with sometimes significant numbers of staff and associated responsibilities- than an AO would not normally have.

The issue is where the roles have become blurred- as technically both are immediately subordinate to an AP- who may assign work blind to the fundamental differences that the roles would normally be expected to have.........

In the modern world- your newly promoted HEO is probably in the civil service for a protracted period of time- and very probably a graduate- versus the AO- who could be straight out of college (and there are AOs in the current cohort who only just graduated). This distinction was specifically addressed at the talk and interview training that Carr Communications gave the interview panels who interviewed all the AO candidates- and may have been encountered by many here- where they were encouraged to use college/university society roles and experience to highlight examples in some of the competencies that were being interviewed.

The distinction between the roles- is a formal distinction- and it is unfair when some Departments try to blur the lines- but there is a legitimate reason that there are wholly different salary scales associated with the two posts.

Is the year-out in other Departments gone by the way?

billyhead

The_Conductor wrote: »

If they are working alongside one another- there should be clear water between their respective roles. AO is not a staff management position- it is a graduate recruitment post- with a reasonable expectation that the post holder is in a policy development role of some type or description. HEO- is a staff managerial role- and while there could be some policy development work associated with the role- more often than not, it would be more an implemenetation type role- with sometimes significant numbers of staff and associated responsibilities- than an AO would not normally have.

The issue is where the roles have become blurred- as technically both are immediately subordinate to an AP- who may assign work blind to the fundamental differences that the roles would normally be expected to have.........

In the modern world- your newly promoted HEO is probably in the civil service for a protracted period of time- and very probably a graduate- versus the AO- who could be straight out of college (and there are AOs in the current cohort who only just graduated). This distinction was specifically addressed at the talk and interview training that Carr Communications gave the interview panels who interviewed all the AO candidates- and may have been encountered by many here- where they were encouraged to use college/university society roles and experience to highlight examples in some of the competencies that were being interviewed.

The distinction between the roles- is a formal distinction- and it is unfair when some Departments try to blur the lines- but there is a legitimate reason that there are wholly different salary scales associated with the two posts.

Is the year-out in other Departments gone by the way?

I am working with AOs and they told me the year out for experience elsewhere has been abolished. It also used to be a case whereby AOs were promoted to AP's after a few years without a competitive process as long as their work output is satisfactory and attendance etc but that's gone too and from talking to them they feel they are now at a disadvantage as they don't get to manage staff, although you could be promoted to HEO and likewise have no staff to manage. It all depends on the unit your assigned to and also the Dept/Office.

mockscraic

billyhead wrote: »

I am working with AOs and they told me the year out for experience elsewhere has been abolished. It also used to be a case whereby AOs were promoted to AP's after a few years without a competitive process as long as their work output is satisfactory and attendance etc but that's gone too and from talking to them they feel they are now at a disadvantage as they don't get to manage staff, although you could be promoted to HEO and likewise have no staff to manage. It all depends on the unit your assigned to and also the Dept/Office.

There are honestly no rules anymore. AP has myself, an AO, and HEO. I have staff, the HEO has none. My role was always filled by a HEO. Operational, no policy.
Basically, we are cheaper labour. But when you're just out of college, what leg have you to stand on?

Don't know why they got rid of the year thing. Would be very helpful to broaden the horizons.

AGC

mockscraic wrote: »

There are honestly no rules anymore. AP has myself, an AO, and HEO. I have staff, the HEO has none. My role was always filled by a HEO. Operational, no policy.
Basically, we are cheaper labour. But when you're just out of college, what leg have you to stand on?

Don't know why they got rid of the year thing. Would be very helpful to broaden the horizons.

This.

I am working in a non policy, specialised role. Banging my head against a wall.

The_Conductor

Sorry guys- I really wish there was something I could say other than I'm sorry to hear of the situations you're in.
Would there be any point in contacting the union and asking them to make a formal approach to DPER outlining the situation- as it pertains to several Departments- as obviously DPER would rather these kind of situations didn't arise........?
Obviously people can't approach DPER in a personal capacity- but if Forsa could be convinced that there was a valid case to be made- perhaps they might be a useful conduit to argue a case for more meaningful posts for AOs (both current and future)?

Halloween Jack

The_Conductor wrote: »

Sorry guys- I really wish there was something I could say other than I'm sorry to hear of the situations you're in.
Would there be any point in contacting the union and asking them to make a formal approach to DPER outlining the situation- as it pertains to several Departments- as obviously DPER would rather these kind of situations didn't arise........?
Obviously people can't approach DPER in a personal capacity- but if Forsa could be convinced that there was a valid case to be made- perhaps they might be a useful conduit to argue a case for more meaningful posts for AOs (both current and future)?

**** forsa

The_Conductor

Halloween Jack wrote: »

**** forsa

The problem is- there isn't any prescribed communication channel for AOs/HEOs/EOs other than Forsa (who by and large are run by the former CPSU). Forsa are the only show in town- regardless of whether or not they give a rats arse about AOs/HEOs/EOs (and akin to you- I strongly suspect they don't). When they're the only horse on the road though- you don't have any other option. Nothing ventured, nothing gained?

AGC

I have made an approach to my own departments HR and at least they were honest with me and I will get a move soon but they are more concerned with keeping bums on seats regardless of grade.

Baby4

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corvettenut

Baby4 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Have a look at this thread for the current discussion on these appointments:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057827661

Chocolate Teapot

Baby4 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Congratulations on your offer! You're on a single point salary scale as the salary for your position will be the same for the three years of your contract. Unfortunately the salary is a bit lower for the local government position than the civil service. I did the local authority grad programme the last time round but left before the end to join the civil service, and I'm now an AO in the civil service. I loved my time on the grad programme but as it wasn't permanent I opted for the civil service instead. There's no way of saying what type of role you will be in as you could be put in any section. When I started all of the people I worked with who came in on the grad programme we're given a significant amount of responsibility and got to work on a wide range of interesting projects. I would definitely have stayed if the role was permanent. Best of luck with it!

ros89

Hi Folks,

Does anyone have any idea of what number PAS has reached? I’m 261 in OOM so I doubt they’ll reach that!

Chocolate Teapot

ros89 wrote: »

Hi Folks,

Does anyone have any idea of what number PAS has reached? I’m 261 in OOM so I doubt they’ll reach that!

If you ring PAS they will tell you. I'd be interested to know as in recent years they've called two batches and exhausted both!

Woodenframe

Folks, apologies if this has been asked, but for those who were CS at the time of appointment, did you go across on your own salary off-scale and then have to mark time until you reach that salary on the scale??

Halloween Jack

Woodenframe wrote: »

Folks, apologies if this has been asked, but for those who were CS at the time of appointment, did you go across on your own salary off-scale and then have to mark time until you reach that salary on the scale??

Yes, as per this arrangement my next increment is 2022.

However, I have been informed that dper are issuing a revised circular as soon as next week in relation to this.

I was also informed of a colleague who was a CO promoted on an open competition to EO who was asked to mark time till 2025, he raised a case with forsa and his case has been settled in his favour

Woodenframe

Cheers for that Halloween jack. I'll have to get on to my Forsa rep and find out the exact arrangement.. should there ever come a time I need to worry about it!

quad_red

Good luck in your endeavors but it’s a pity they totally disregard previous private sector experience and salary.

Another way coming from outside you’re disadvantaged.

baba87

Any word on a second batch being called from this panel? Or has the first batch been exhausted yet?

Chocolate Teapot

baba87 wrote: »

Any word on a second batch being called from this panel? Or has the first batch been exhausted yet?

Unfortunately it doesn't seem like they'll be calling a second batch. I was talking to somebody who called PAS to enquire and they said that there's a new competition starting around Sept so there won't be another batch called for this comp.

hardybuck

I have heard the same info as Chocolate Teapot.

Panel exhausted. No further panel until the launch of the next competition around Sept/Oct.

baba87

Thanks!

Ravelleman

hardybuck wrote: »

I have heard the same info as Chocolate Teapot.

Panel exhausted. No further panel until the launch of the next competition around Sept/Oct.

Indeed. This is what PAS have been telling departments and agencies.

The_Conductor

Ravelleman wrote: »

Indeed. This is what PAS have been telling departments and agencies.

Unfortunately its a reflection of 'normalisation'.
Prior to 2017- you might have had subsequent batches called (at AO)- but normal- is a single campaign with a 9 month lifespan- and a fresh cohort of newbies each Sept/Oct. I'm just under 1000 on the order of merit for this particular competition- and had pretty much dismissed it outright as impossible- however, given there were multiple batches the previous year- I know a lot of people were rather hopeful.

Either ways- there are several competitions coming up in August/September- hopefully those of us who were just a little too far down the order of pecking this time- will have honed our e-tray and other skills for the next time............

hardybuck

The_Conductor wrote: »

Unfortunately its a reflection of 'normalisation'.
Prior to 2017- you might have had subsequent batches called (at AO)- but normal- is a single campaign with a 9 month lifespan- and a fresh cohort of newbies each Sept/Oct. I'm just under 1000 on the order of merit for this particular competition- and had pretty much dismissed it outright as impossible- however, given there were multiple batches the previous year- I know a lot of people were rather hopeful.

Either ways- there are several competitions coming up in August/September- hopefully those of us who were just a little too far down the order of pecking this time- will have honed our e-tray and other skills for the next time............

I think they only had a subsequent batch once in the last few years, but you're right in that this should always be an annual competition to reflect the target market.

Does anyone know how many were placed on the panel this year?

ciaramcellin13

I'm really curious, is it possible to defer an offer for a year if you get offered a position? Or would you have to decline the offer and apply again in the next campaign?

Ravelleman

ciaramcellin13 wrote: »

I'm really curious, is it possible to defer an offer for a year if you get offered a position? Or would you have to decline the offer and apply again in the next campaign?

You cannot defer.