Maximizing the current Rail Infrastructure

LeinsterDub

Isambard wrote: »

isn't the solution to integrate the Rosslare service into the Dart service by assimilating the traction so that an up Rosslare train would become a DART service at Bray replacing a down DART in the diagram which could be sidelined there until a later time or alternatively units could be split or coupled there to acheive the same effect. It would mean electifying to Rosslare or dual mode units I guess, but surely that's got to be a better solution than killing off the Rosslare line altogether by having to change at Bray.

Why would one simple quick change kill the line?

Electrifying the entire line would certainly be a major improvement but would cost a fortune and won't fix the capacity issues.

end of the road

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Given the recent political talk. It may not continue much longer.

what may not continue much longer? rail services in general? you think so?
people are wise enough to know that if rail services are attacked, other services are next. so it may not be as politically easy as one may think.

Sam Russell

Del.Monte wrote: »

@ bk and Sam Russell

At least both EOTR and myself post here from our experience as regular travellers on the line whereas the two of you are dealing with it in a theoretical, abstract way and continuing to quote some nonsensical passenger survey doesn't really add to things. The Rosslare/Dublin service, for as long as it continues, will remain running through to Connolly - you heard it here first!

Well, I would expect the Wexford - Rosslare Europort part of the line would be axed next, followed by the Gorey - Wexford bit. If you want it saved, it needs more trains and get them to run faster. The Rosslare to Wexford bus service from BE gets the journey done in similar time to the train and is more frequent.

If the first train to arrive in Wexford is afternoon, that is half the day gone already. The first train into Bray runs empty as far as Gorey arriving into Bray at 7.03 am. It does not even pickup at Eniscorthy. Not much of a service as far as I can see. It is doomed with this level of service.

It needs a rethink - you do not get passengers travelling on such a poor service.

The DMU needs fuelling but apart from that servicing is not for each journey or likely each week.

They could start by trying this terminating at Bray with one or two services a day - the main object is to improve the southbound AM service which is non-existent at present.

bk

Del.Monte wrote: »

@ bk and Sam Russell

At least both EOTR and myself post here from our experience as regular travellers on the line whereas the two of you are dealing with it in a theoretical, abstract way and continuing to quote some nonsensical passenger survey doesn't really add to things.

First of all, as I mentioned I do use the line as far as Greystones. But of course given that I'm not one of just 571 people who use the line doesn't mean I can't have an opinion of it, like the 99% of other train users.

And to be honest, the fact that so few people use the line is why it is in trouble, so this isn't exactly a good argument to make!

Del.Monte wrote: »

The Rosslare/Dublin service, for as long as it continues, will remain running through to Connolly - you heard it here first!

That is the problem isn't it. It carries so few people that if something isn't done to improve the service and increase capacity for a reasonable cost then it likely will be shut down.

Despite what you or others might think, I'd actually rather not see it being shutdown if a reasonable compromise can be find.

But if the opinion of folks who use the line is that we will fight it to the death, then death is exactly what might happen.

Isambard wrote: »

isn't the solution to integrate the Rosslare service into the Dart service by assimilating the traction so that an up Rosslare train would become a DART service at Bray replacing a down DART in the diagram which could be sidelined there until a later time or alternatively units could be split or coupled there to acheive the same effect. It would mean electifying to Rosslare or dual mode units I guess, but surely that's got to be a better solution than killing off the Rosslare line altogether by having to change at Bray.

That is really smart, out of the box thinking, nice

I don't think you could electrify the line, far too expensive. A hybrid train that runs on Diesel and then switches to overhead power from Greystones might be an option. Such trains do exist. Though it would be a bit of a weird one, it would be the only train of it's type in the fleet and probably expensive and difficult to maintain.

It would be a lot more expensive then having folks spend 2 to 3 minutes changing trains at Bray which seems a perfectly reasonable solution to me, but going by the replies here, people will just fight it until the line is shut down! Shrug!

bk

Sam Russell wrote: »

If the first train to arrive in Wexford is afternoon, that is half the day gone already.

I was actually just looking at the Wexford Bus website and timetable, actually looks like a pretty good service!

It runs almost hourly throughout the day, every 30 minutes in the morning. Multiple buses that get you into Dublin or Wexford before 9. Also stops at UCD and the airport amongst many other stops. Running time seems to be the same as the train. I can certainly see why it is popular.

bk

bk wrote: »

I was actually just looking at the Wexford Bus website and timetable, actually looks like a pretty good service!

It runs almost hourly throughout the day, every 30 minutes in the morning. Multiple buses that get you into Dublin or Wexford before 9. Also stops at UCD and the airport amongst many other stops. Running time seems to be the same as the train. I can certainly see why it is popular.

No use for Arklow unfortunately. While it claims to service Arklow, all it does is drop you off at the M11 exit which is 3km from the town itself!

end of the road

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well, I would expect the Wexford - Rosslare Europort part of the line would be axed next, followed by the Gorey - Wexford bit.

the whole lot will go, because irish rail want it to go.

Sam Russell wrote: »

If you want it saved, it needs more trains and get them to run faster.

and to remove those within IE and all else who have an agenda against the line.

Sam Russell wrote: »

The Rosslare to Wexford bus service from BE gets the journey done in similar time to the train and is more frequent.

not what i've been told by a friend who regularly uses the bus service. they tell me it takes quite a bit longer. i haven't done it so can't verify it but they regularly use it so i have no reason to disbelieve them.

Sam Russell wrote: »

The first train into Bray runs empty as far as Gorey arriving into Bray at 7.03 am. It does not even pickup at Eniscorthy.

since when.

Sam Russell wrote: »

They could start by trying this terminating at Bray with one or two services a day - the main object is to improve the southbound AM service which is non-existent at present.

they could, but if they have any sense, it will be a direct train to the capital instead.

bk

Karsini wrote: »

No use for Arklow unfortunately. While it claims to service Arklow, all it does is drop you off at the M11 exit which is 3km from the town itself!

Not saying it is great, but sounds like it would be handy for parents dropping off their kids heading to UCD, etc.

The idea of express bus services picking up and dropping off at Motorway exits is actually a pretty decent idea, though really you want it connecting with a local bus service from the town.

Stephen15

Isambard wrote: »

isn't the solution to integrate the Rosslare service into the Dart service by assimilating the traction so that an up Rosslare train would become a DART service at Bray replacing a down DART in the diagram which could be sidelined there until a later time or alternatively units could be split or coupled there to acheive the same effect. It would mean electifying to Rosslare or dual mode units I guess, but surely that's got to be a better solution than killing off the Rosslare line altogether by having to change at Bray.

Electrifying the line as far as Gorey or least as far as Wicklow Town however expensive would definitely be a good idea along with Maynooth line electrication, quad tracking of the Northern line, Metro North. The goverment just has to bite the bullet at some point and allocate about €10bn+ towards public transport development its something that was done after the war on the continent and still needs to be done here.

The line south of Gorey wouldn't really need electrication as the line is simply to far away from Dublin and perhaps a shuttle service could be put in place. I know people complain that the line has low pop. densities and wouldn't justify the investment however when good pt is put in place population generally tends to follow look at Greystones as an example a small fishing village before the DART now a thriving commuter town.

Between Gorey and Dublin is perfect commuting distance and when it comes to commuting rail is best. What I would to see for Dublin is similar to Berlin I think three tracking on the southern line would be viable with more frequent service to Gorey have the DART operate as a segrated S-Bahn type service for local Dublin area and an effective regional rail service for the commuter towns.

rebel456

Stephen15 wrote: »

Electrifying the line as far as Gorey or least as far as Wicklow Town however expensive would definitely be a good idea along with Maynooth line electrication, quad tracking of the Northern line, Metro North. The goverment just has to bite the bullet at some point and allocate about €10bn+ towards public transport development its something that was done after the war on the continent and still needs to be done here.

Ireland was relatively poor until well into the 90's, even with EU help from the 70's onwards. The mistake at that time was not saving land for DART Expansion. In current times we are constrained by the fiscal compact so large scale borrowing is very difficult to achieve. But, besides that, if the Government did magically get €10b (and assuming the public sector unions don't devour such funds), do you really think they'd sink any sizeable chunk into electrifying a line carrying 571 daily passengers? Not very likely quite frankly.

EDIT: I skimmed your piece and assumed you meant electrifying all the line. As far as Gorey does sound reasonable, if funds available. The entire line, no no.

The theme running through this discussion is microcosm of reason why Ireland can't seem to do public transport well: Me, Myself, and I. Once I am catered for, feck the rest of ye. Once I have my direct train to Dublin - no matter how slow or infrequent, I am happy. Rational arguments about passenger numbers, or even positives like frequency enhancement don't dent that mindset. It's the same mindset that will kill the wonderful Bus Connects plan in Dublin. Change will mean some folks connecting from feeder to express buses, resulting in a faster journey for all. But for those who have a direct bus outside their door, they won't want to give it up, even if it means a slower journey for everyone else - once I have my bit, feck the rest.

bk

Stephen15 wrote: »

Electrifying the line as far as Gorey or least as far as Wicklow Town however expensive would definitely be a good idea

Just electrifying, not double tracking, as far as Gorey, would cost 35 million or so (it is 100km from Dublin). So maybe not the worst idea in the world if they made a serious attempt at high density development along the stations on the line. But to be honest it might be just a bit too far for a comfortable commute.

Wicklow Town at 50km seems a more reasonable stretch, and not excluding double tracking, would only cost about 10 million or so to electrify.

Stephen15 wrote: »

Between Gorey and Dublin is perfect commuting distance and when it comes to commuting rail is best. What I would to see for Dublin is similar to Berlin I think three tracking on the southern line would be viable with more frequent service to Gorey have the DART operate as a segrated S-Bahn type service for local Dublin area and an effective regional rail service for the commuter towns.

Gorey at 100km I wouldn't call perfect commuting distance, I'd say it is at the extreme of commuting.

Thing is Greystones is 31km from Dublin. That is well within the distance that the s-Bahn network extends from Berlin, about 35 to 40km. So if Greystones was in Berlin, it would definitely be an S-Bahn stop and not have an express service.

Wicklow Town would fall a bit outside of the s-bahn network and would be more a regional service. Gorey at 100km definitely would be.

Tripling tracking the southern line would be almost impossible. Thinking of all the tunnels along the route, through Dun Laoghaire, etc. Most of the line is in an open tunnel. I suppose it would be technically possible, but cutting into the walls of those tunnels would likely be VERY expensive. A few passing loops along the line might be possible with expensive CPO's. But South of Bray you back onto single track and needing to blast holes in hills to double track it.

So yeah I could possibly see extending DART to Wicklow Town. But hard to imagine any further development then that. Much easier and cheaper upgrades on the other lines.

LeinsterDub

end of the road wrote: »

what may not continue much longer? rail services in general? you think so?
people are wise enough to know that if rail services are attacked, other services are next. so it may not be as politically easy as one may think.

Not rail services in general. The Wexford line . It's one of 4 ÍE want gone

http://www.thejournal.ie/irish-rail-routes-3570004-Aug2017/

Stephen15

bk wrote: »

Just electrifying, not double tracking, as far as Gorey, would cost 35 million or so (it is 100km from Dublin). So maybe not the worst idea in the world if they made a serious attempt at high density development along the stations on the line. But to be honest it might be just a bit too far for a comfortable commute.

Wicklow Town at 50km seems a more reasonable stretch, and not excluding double tracking, would only cost about 10 million or so to electrify.



Gorey at 100km I wouldn't call perfect commuting distance, I'd say it is at the extreme of commuting.

Thing is Greystones is 31km from Dublin. That is well within the distance that the s-Bahn network extends from Berlin, about 35 to 40km. So if Greystones was in Berlin, it would definitely be an S-Bahn stop and not have an express service.

Wicklow Town would fall a bit outside of the s-bahn network and would be more a regional service. Gorey at 100km definitely would be.

Tripling tracking the southern line would be almost impossible. Thinking of all the tunnels along the route, through Dun Laoghaire, etc. Most of the line is in an open tunnel. I suppose it would be technically possible, but cutting into the walls of those tunnels would likely be VERY expensive. A few passing loops along the line might be possible with expensive CPO's. But South of Bray you back onto single track and needing to blast holes in hills to double track it.

So yeah I could possibly see extending DART to Wicklow Town. But hard to imagine any further development then that. Much easier and cheaper upgrades on the other lines.

That's sort of what I was suggesting have Regional Express express type services running alongside the Dart for commuting in within the GDA.

Colonel Claptrap

end of the road wrote: »

nothing anyone can say will convince me to change my mind on the issue, as i know how things will actually turn out

Sometimes we find ourselves walking through life blindfolded, and we try to deny that we're the ones who securely tied the knot.

loyatemu

I wouldn't be in favour of encouraging additional commuting from the likes of Gorey or Arklow - for every person who gets the train, 5 more will drive and the N11 is already crazy.

There's loads of development land much closer to Dublin, this kind of thinking is what caused the last crash and has people living in places like Portlaoise still trapped in negative equity 10 years later.

end of the road

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Not rail services in general. The Wexford line . It's one of 4 ÍE want gone

http://www.thejournal.ie/irish-rail-routes-3570004-Aug2017/

yeah. being a user for more then 20 years, i'd be very much aware of how they want it gone. they wanted it gone back when i started using it. i'd bet those using it a lot longer will be able to tell us that in fact they wanted it gone from a lot further back too because "reasons"

LeinsterDub

end of the road wrote: »

yeah. being a user for more then 20 years, i'd be very much aware of how they want it gone. they wanted it gone back when i started using it. i'd bet those using it a lot longer will be able to tell us that in fact they wanted it gone from a lot further back too because "reasons"

Even if I accept this as true. What has this got to do with anything? And more to the point what has it got to do with this thread. No one here as far as I'm aware are ÍE administrators . This is a get the crayons out kind of thread

tabbey

bk wrote: »

. Just 572 passengers, delaying more frequent services
.

No, it is not just the 572 passengers who use the existing poor service.

It is the tens of thousands of people in Bray, Greystones and further south, who would use rail if the service was reasonable.

These people currently use bus or car, clogging the streets and strangling Dublin.

LeinsterDub

tabbey wrote: »

No, it is not just the 572 passengers who use the existing poor service.

It is the tens of thousands of people in Bray, Greystones and further south, who would use rail if the service was reasonable.

These people currently use bus or car, clogging the streets and strangling Dublin.

And thus we've proposed a means of making the service more reasonable. What is your proposal?

tabbey

LeinsterDub wrote: »

And thus we've proposed a means of making the service more reasonable. What is your proposal?

Invest in infrastructure to allow a frequent fast service for outer suburbs.

Four tracking at least between Sidney Parade and Blackrock for a start.

tabbey

tabbey wrote: »

Invest in infrastructure to allow a frequent fast service for outer suburbs.

Four tracking at least between Sidney Parade and Blackrock for a start.

Great in theory but IE haven't even been able to remove the level crossings in D4 due to objections.

tabbey

Karsini wrote: »

Great in theory but IE haven't even been able to remove the level crossings in D4 due to objections.

There was a proposal to build a bridge and link road from Strand Rd to Merrion Rd at the Merrion church.
Am I to understand that objectors have scuppered this?

Ideally all these level crossings should be eliminated, but at least the proposed bridge would allow closure of Sidney Parade and Merrion.

The present system of limited stop 2900s and ICRs running at bicycle speeds there is deplorable. In the era of manned signal cabins, the gates were closed in good time to allow fast trains pass at 60mph, thus getting from Pearse to DunLaoghaire in 8 minutes.

In the interim, something should be done about road vehicle drivers who block the level crossings. Surely a fixed CCTV camera could be sited at each LC with ANPR and automatic issue of fines.

LeinsterDub

tabbey wrote: »

Invest in infrastructure to allow a frequent fast service for outer suburbs.

Four tracking at least between Sidney Parade and Blackrock for a start.

That's ultimately the dream but would cost a fortune and as such not the purpose of this thread.

Sam Russell

tabbey wrote: »

There was a proposal to build a bridge and link road from Strand Rd to Merrion Rd at the Merrion church.
Am I to understand that objectors have scuppered this?

Ideally all these level crossings should be eliminated, but at least the proposed bridge would allow closure of Sidney Parade and Merrion.

The present system of limited stop 2900s and ICRs running at bicycle speeds there is deplorable. In the era of manned signal cabins, the gates were closed in good time to allow fast trains pass at 60mph, thus getting from Pearse to DunLaoghaire in 8 minutes.

In the interim, something should be done about road vehicle drivers who block the level crossings. Surely a fixed CCTV camera could be sited at each LC with ANPR and automatic issue of fines.

The proposed bridge to replace Merrion Gates is still under consideration. The Sydney Parade gates will remain. There is no possibility of eliminating the level crossings between Lansdown and Sydney parade.

Sydney Parade actually have the CCTV camera and ANPR and a sign in Irish and English suggesting its use to enforce compliance with the signals. I doubt many notice this because the sign in English is in tiny writing hiding behind an overgrown tree. The sign in Irish is on the other side of the track. I do not think the system is in use.

If there is a 10 min Dart service, there will not be room for diesels between Bray and Pearse.

Marty Bird

tabbey wrote: »

There was a proposal to build a bridge and link road from Strand Rd to Merrion Rd at the Merrion church.
Am I to understand that objectors have scuppered this?

Ideally all these level crossings should be eliminated, but at least the proposed bridge would allow closure of Sidney Parade and Merrion.

The present system of limited stop 2900s and ICRs running at bicycle speeds there is deplorable. In the era of manned signal cabins, the gates were closed in good time to allow fast trains pass at 60mph, thus getting from Pearse to DunLaoghaire in 8 minutes.

In the interim, something should be done about road vehicle drivers who block the level crossings. Surely a fixed CCTV camera could be sited at each LC with ANPR and automatic issue of fines.

IE also changed the closing times for the crossings to keep them open longer for road users as opposed to the trains which reduces speed of the trains due to restricted signal aspects.

loyatemu

Sam Russell wrote: »

If there is a 10 min Dart service, there will not be room for diesels between Bray and Pearse.

not sure that's true - they just won't be any faster than the Dart. There are 5 departures from Bray between 0740 and 0810 currently - it is possible.

Sam Russell

loyatemu wrote: »

not sure that's true - they just won't be any faster than the Dart. There are 5 departures from Bray between 0740 and 0810 currently - it is possible.

What they tend to do is run one diesel behind another. Can't see the point in that at all, as the gap between Darts is longer, and the diesels have fewer stops but the same transit time.

IE really need to think this timetable out better.

They put a lot of effort to enable commuter traffic but do their best to inconvenience traffic in the opposite direction - even though they could cater for both.

For example southbound diesels stop at Sydney Parade in the morning, but not Northbound ones. In the evening, it is the reverse. Someone getting on at Sydney Parade and working in Maynooth finds there is no convenient way of getting there and back compared with someone living in Maynooth and working at St Vincent's. Maynooth 7:55 stops at Sydney Parade. The Sydney Parade 15:29 goes to Maynooth both direct services - the only ones all day. Otherwise change at Connolly (or perhaps Pearse).

Just not good enough.

roundymac

Karsini wrote: »

Great in theory but IE haven't even been able to remove the level crossings in D4 due to objections.

There has got to be a Government will to get around these objections. You can't have progress held up because some one dos'nt like it. Look what's happened in Athenry and Apple.

tabbey

Marty Bird wrote: »

IE also changed the closing times for the crossings to keep them open longer for road users as opposed to the trains which reduces speed of the trains due to restricted signal aspects.

This is all the more reason why the level crossings must be eliminated.

tabbey

Sam Russell wrote: »

southbound diesels stop at Sydney Parade in the morning, but not Northbound ones. In the evening, it is the reverse. Someone getting on at Sydney Parade and working in Maynooth finds there is no convenient way of getting there and back compared with someone living in Maynooth and working at St Vincent's. Maynooth 7:55 stops at Sydney Parade. The Sydney Parade 15:29 goes to Maynooth both direct services - the only ones all day. Otherwise change at Connolly (or perhaps Pearse).

This is because the diesels are catering for people from north and west who work southeast of the CBD. There are people using Sidney Parade to get to Saint Vincent's Hospital, RTE and UCD.