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Maximizing the current Rail Infrastructure

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    #302
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,997 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    It's been highlighted terminating at Bray makes sense for both services and could lead to a frequency increase for both services with little or no journey time increase. The reply? Never! Never! Never!

    it would lead to no frequency increases for rosslare line services as a frequency increase can happen currently but IE do not wish to do it. if they won't do it now they won't do it with your non-viable suggestion. the journey times would increase for rosslare services with a change on to a slow all stops service and would kill the service, removing people away from public transport. it would also be an attack on the elderly and disabled of south wicklow and county wexford who may be regular or sometimes users of the service, making the service inconvenient for them.
    bk wrote: »
    And this is why we can't have nice things in Ireland. Always someone complain about every new development that will benefit lots of other people. Rosslare passengers might have to walk 10 meters to change train, something done all over the world, but no we will be out on the streets fighting these improvements!

    It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.


    exactly, we will fight the disprovement to our service. changes all over the world aren't relevant as they are from a number of different services on networks where there are lots of lines and plenty of destinations to go via rail. here however, changes outside the capital are for the most part not justified. even the tralee and limerick services having to change is unjustified but in theory they do get access to a cork express. mind you if direct trains were to return that would allow cork services to be more or less non-stop altogether which would increase patronage. the ideal timetable would go something like this. cork services run possibly nonstop from mallow, tralee services serve from tralee to limerick junction and run non stop, an hourly limerick service serves from limerick to portlaoise and run non-stop.
    Del.Monte wrote: »
    We don't need a Ryanair type inter-city rail service that brings you to a station near to the one that you want to arrive at. Terminating the Rosslare train anywhere other than Connolly would further deter passenger traffic, but then that is what those pushing the idea want.

    exactly. and it won't stop at our rail service.
    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    The service would still bring you to Connolly but instead of having to wait 3 hours for the Wexford train a half an hour service could be run. The only difference would be stepping out of one train and on to another


    a half an hour service couldn't be run. the difference would be a severely downgraded service and a longer journey time for no service increase, as irish rail do not wish to increase services on this line due to "reasons" aka excuses.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #303
    uxiant
    Registered Users Posts: 282 ✭✭uxiant


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Not ideal really speaking I've yet to come across an Intercity or a regional train in any other city or country that drops you outside the city meaning you have change it certainly wouldn't encourage more passengers on the the wexford line.

    An ideal situation would be triple or quadruple tracking which would be costly this would allow the Dart to become an S-Bahn style service. I was in Berlin recently and the S-Bahn ran parallel for a considerable part of the journey to the Regionalbahn, Intercity and freight lines but the S-Bahn lines were completely separate.

    That's the ideal scenario but like bk has mentioned, quad tracking the southern line is improssible without spending hundreds of millions if not billions because of the topography of the land. We don't have the money to do that as well as MN, DU, quad tracking the northern line and electrifying to Maynooth which are all far more pressing concerns.


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    #304
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,419 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    uxiant wrote: »
    On top of this I'm looking at the time table and the Rosslare train takes 34 minutes to travel from Bray to Pearse. The preceding DART train takes 36 minutes and the subsequent train is 38 minutes. The service is laughably slow and there is no way it's possible to segregate the service from DART reducing journey times without emptying the infrastructure budget and destroying far more important projects.

    Terminating Rosslare trains at Bray to allow an increased frequency on the DART makes sense. Given the tens of thousands daily that would benefit from an increased frequency on the DART line, it really isn't asking a lot for passengers on the Rosslare service to switch from the bay platform at Bray onto the DART with little change to journey times.

    Are there any figures for the number of passengers travelling from south of Greystones on the Rosslare trains (in either directions) so the number of affected passengers can be assessed? I would imagine there is plenty of room south of Greystones, but I do not know.

    If the transfer from Rosslare DMU to Dart EMU was just across the platform, then I cannot see the problem for the passengers - if the train leaves immediately. Also, there is no reason why the Dart service does not continue the stopping pattern of the Rosslare train, Bray, DL, Pearse, Tara, and Connolly. It could then stop all stations to Malahide.

    Has anyone any real figures?


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    #305
    uxiant
    Registered Users Posts: 282 ✭✭uxiant


    GerardKeating wrote: »
    So, you are saying that the Rosslaire train adds 2 minutes to the DART that get stuck behind it, so (given 4 trains a day) that's 4 DARTS delayed daily in each direction.

    No, I am saying that the Rosslare train is only fractionally faster than the DART despite only stopping at Dun Laoghaire and GCD. It's laughably slow.


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    #306
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    end of the road wrote: »
    it would lead to no frequency increases for rosslare line services as a frequency increase can happen currently but IE do not wish to do it.

    Isn't the Dublin line maxed out now? Where would this increased frequency fit in? And if we have increased capacity why aren't we using it for dart and commuter trains?


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    #307
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Are there any figures for the number of passengers travelling from south of Greystones on the Rosslare trains (in either directions) so the number of affected passengers can be assessed? I would imagine there is plenty of room south of Greystones, but I do not know.

    If the transfer from Rosslare DMU to Dart EMU was just across the platform, then I cannot see the problem for the passengers - if the train leaves immediately. Also, there is no reason why the Dart service does not continue the stopping pattern of the Rosslare train, Bray, DL, Pearse, Tara, and Connolly. It could then stop all stations to Malahide.

    Has anyone any real figures?

    40k per day on the entire IC network. Assume the Wexford line represents less than 20% of that number?


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    #308
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,997 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    If the transfer from Rosslare DMU to Dart EMU was just across the platform, then I cannot see the problem for the passengers - if the train leaves immediately.

    we the users, see the problems, and will not stand for such a downgraded service, for which their is no justification.
    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Also, there is no reason why the Dart service does not continue the stopping pattern of the Rosslare train, Bray, DL, Pearse, Tara, and Connolly. It could then stop all stations to Malahide.

    there would be no merrit in such. it would be even more ridiculous then the original suggestion, which would have saw trains running all stops from bray. with your suggestion, it would be doubly a change for change sake, bringing no benefits and would be operationally wasteful. no point, no merrit, no justification. just a disbenefit and a deliberate act to kill the rosslare line.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #309
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    end of the road wrote: »
    we the users, see the problems, and will not stand for such a downgraded service, for which their is no justification.

    Please explain the downgrade?! You're stepping from one train to other?


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    #310
    Marty Bird
    Registered Users Posts: 1,875 ✭✭✭Marty Bird


    The way I see it is there should only be a shuttle service between Bray and Greystones for the DART. Let the Rosslare run.

    🌞6.02kWp⚡️3.01kWp South/East⚡️3.01kWp West



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    #311
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,419 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    40k per day on the entire IC network. Assume the Wexford line represents less than 20% of that number?

    So there are no figures.
    end of the road wrote: »
    we the users, see the problems, and will not stand for such a downgraded service, for which their is no justification.



    there would be no merrit in such. it would be even more ridiculous then the original suggestion, which would have saw trains running all stops from bray. with your suggestion, it would be doubly a change for change sake, bringing no benefits and would be operationally wasteful. no point, no merrit, no justification. just a disbenefit and a deliberate act to kill the rosslare line.

    The train that passengers in Bray change to would be an extra train and so not a Dart as such. The benefit would be that the DMU would then return to Wexford/Rosslare providing an extra service that would allow passengers from Dublin to arrive into Wexford before midday. Surely that would be an advantage. (Not every service from south of Greystones would be subject to change, but some would improve the service level).

    The way services are closed down would appear to change the timetable so it discourages passengers, then say there is no demand, Then they quote ridiculous subsidy figures, and then close the line. Watch this happen to Wexford - Rosslare Harbour, then south of Gorey.

    An increase in frequency and speed will reverse this.


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    #312
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,997 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    The train that passengers in Bray change to would be an extra train and so not a Dart as such.

    means taking a train from somewhere else and capacity from elsewhere. pointless, may as well have the rosslare run through.
    Sam Russell wrote: »
    The benefit would be that the DMU would then return to Wexford/Rosslare providing an extra service that would allow passengers from Dublin to arrive into Wexford before midday. Surely that would be an advantage. (Not every service from south of Greystones would be subject to change, but some would improve the service level).

    the service level can improve as is . IE don't wish to improve it. they need to be forced to do it, but nobody is going to do that, because it would mean the powers that be having to side with users. however only direct to the capital trains will encourage usage.
    Sam Russell wrote: »
    The way services are closed down would appear to change the timetable so it discourages passengers, then say there is no demand, Then they quote ridiculous subsidy figures, and then close the line. Watch this happen to Wexford - Rosslare Harbour, then south of Gorey.

    An increase in frequency and speed will reverse this.

    and until we the people make the removal of rail services in this modern age absolutely toxic, then CIE will keep getting away with their nonsense until we have nothing. everyone who wants good public transport holding the politicians to account and making transport an election issue when they call to your door at election time is the only way we may get somewhere. a few of us doing it won't get much done. the NTA may make the ultimate decisians and are unelected but the paymasters are elected and the NTA have to answer to them.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #313
    GerardKeating
    Registered Users Posts: 7,542 ✭✭✭GerardKeating


    uxiant wrote: »
    No, I am saying that the Rosslare train is only fractionally faster than the DART despite only stopping at Dun Laoghaire and GCD. It's laughably slow.

    It slower because a DART leaves about ten minutes before it and it cannot overtake it.

    Forcing the Rosslaire passengers to change at Bray will make their journey even slower with little or no impact on the DART, so lose-lose.

    One or two passing loops on the line would improve the situation.


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    #314
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Please explain the downgrade?! You're stepping from one train to other?

    How do you suggest this would be done? The bay platform in Bray which is wired for the DART faces Greystones. You would be involving passengers either crossing the footbridge with their luggage or using the one lift.

    ****



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    #315
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    How do you suggest this would be done? The bay platform in Bray which is wired for the DART faces Greystones. You would be involving passengers either crossing the footbridge with their luggage or using the one lift.

    Minor investment in infrastructure.


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    #316
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    So there are no figures.

    Nothing concrete but we can make an educated guess.


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    #317
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,997 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Minor investment in infrastructure.


    what infrastructure.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #318
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    end of the road wrote: »
    what infrastructure.

    A shared platform. You'll notice that I answered your direct question perhaps you could do me the same courtesy?


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    #319
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,997 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    A shared platform.

    a shared platform where. there's no more room for platforms from what i can see at either bray or greystones. anyway no point, may as well have the trains run through and spend the money on passing loops.
    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    You'll notice that I answered your direct question perhaps you could do me the same courtesy?

    i already did.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #320
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,419 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    How do you suggest this would be done? The bay platform in Bray which is wired for the DART faces Greystones. You would be involving passengers either crossing the footbridge with their luggage or using the one lift.

    Light bulb moment - why not have the incoming train go into the platform next to the bay platform, and then it is ready for immediate return northbound. Is that beyond the scheduler?


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    #321
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,419 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Nothing concrete but we can make an educated guess.

    We can all guess at numbers. Not a lot of point at guesses if it is real data that we are looking for - is it?


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    #322
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,419 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    end of the road wrote: »
    we the users, see the problems, and will not stand for such a downgraded service, for which their is no justification.

    The justification is to send the DMU back to Wexford two hous earlier than it does now. Currently there is no train arriving in Wexford before noon. If the first train were to turn back, it could be back in Wexford for 10 am.
    there would be no merrit in such. it would be even more ridiculous then the original suggestion, which would have saw trains running all stops from bray. with your suggestion, it would be doubly a change for change sake, bringing no benefits and would be operationally wasteful. no point, no merrit, no justification. just a disbenefit and a deliberate act to kill the rosslare line.

    On the contrary, since the incoming Rosslare train is 3 or 4 coaches, a four coach Dart would suffice. The EMU is lower running cost and faster and integrates better with the line infrastructure.

    If only the first train did this, there would be a better service with maybe an extra service fitted in to the day.


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    #323
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    We can all guess at numbers. Not a lot of point at guesses if it is real data that we are looking for - is it?

    Unfortunately the real data hasn't been released. So an educated guesses is better than nothing.


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    #324
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Light bulb moment - why not have the incoming train go into the platform next to the bay platform, and then it is ready for immediate return northbound. Is that beyond the scheduler?

    At the end of the day all this amounts to is tinkering about for the sake of it and will only lead to a fall-off in passenger numbers. If you are (?) a user of the service you wouldn't make such a suggestion.

    ****



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    #325
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    At the end of the day all this amounts to is tinkering about for the sake of it and will only lead to a fall-off in passenger numbers. If you are (?) a user of the service you wouldn't make such a suggestion.

    Why would it lead to a fall-off in passenger numbers if the frequency of both services where increased? This is the equivalent of Bus Connects for rail. Some changes required but overall journey time are down when you factor in waiting around.


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    #326
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,520 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Oh, my god, ffs, I've just had another of those moments!

    So I just went and checked the daily boarding numbers for the stations south of Greystones, according to the 2014 rail census, and the total is just 572 people!!!!!!!!!!

    You got to be fecking kidding me, is this the number of passengers we are talking about and delaying tens of thousands of people using 10 minute DARTS for!!!!

    Seriously, given such low usage, their is no point in delaying DART's for this. This is exactly the type of maximising of rail infrastructure we need.

    Terminate the Rosslare trains at Bray, move to 10 minute DART's, double the Rosslare frequency by turning the Rosslare DMU back around straight away. Done, better service for everyone.

    Here are the numbers, page 31
    https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Heavy_Rail_Census_2014_Full_Report1.pdf

    Rosslare Europort 13
    Rosslare Strand 14
    Wexford 78
    Enniscorthy 38
    Gorey 78
    Arklow 91
    Rathdrum 75
    Wicklow 152
    Kilcoole 33

    And now here are some numbers for the next two stations:
    Greystones 1,561
    Bray 2,573

    Notice how the stations south of Greystones are mostly double digit and then from Greystones on they jump in the four digit range!

    What EOTR is arguing that basically we should be delaying better services to 10's of thousands of DART users for the sake of 500 people a day. I'm sorry it simply makes no logical sense at all, specially as those 500 people could actually end up with a better service too (more Rosslare route frequency).


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    #327
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,997 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    The justification is to send the DMU back to Wexford two hous earlier than it does now.

    a DMU can currently go to wexford 2 hours earlier. irish rail don't want to send it 2 hours earlier and that won't change with your suggestion.
    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Currently there is no train arriving in Wexford before noon.

    i'm well ware of that, using the line for over 20 years.
    Sam Russell wrote: »
    If the first train were to turn back, it could be back in Wexford for 10 am.

    it couldn't as it will need to go to the depot for servicing.
    Sam Russell wrote: »
    On the contrary, since the incoming Rosslare train is 3 or 4 coaches, a four coach Dart would suffice.

    pointless, the rosslare may as well run through.
    Sam Russell wrote: »
    The EMU is lower running cost and faster and integrates better with the line infrastructure.

    the diesel integrates perfectly fine with the line infrastructure. the EMU won't be lower running cost as it will have to be taken from elsewhere to run your suggested service, meaning something is going to have to suplament elsewhere which will cancel out the supposed lower cost. in reality, i think you know this is all nonsense and are trying to find anything to justify it.
    Sam Russell wrote: »
    If only the first train did this, there would be a better service with maybe an extra service fitted in to the day.

    extra services can currently happen. irish rail don't want to provide them and won't provide them no matter what. your suggestion doesn't change the realities, given by someone who actually uses the line, and has done so for over 20 years.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #328
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,997 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Why would it lead to a fall-off in passenger numbers if the frequency of both services where increased? This is the equivalent of Bus Connects for rail. Some changes required but overall journey time are down when you factor in waiting around.


    This is the equivalent of implement something for the sake of it that does nothing, kills passenger numbers and destroys a service, increases journey times by quite a bit. with any old thing used to try and justify it because everyone knows it has no merrit. like i said, the actual users of the service will correctly not stand for this nonsense.
    bk wrote: »
    Oh, my god, ffs, I've just had another of those moments!

    So I just went and checked the daily boarding numbers for the stations south of Greystones, according to the 2014 rail census, and the total is just 572 people!!!!!!!!!!

    You got to be fecking kidding me, is this the number of passengers we are talking about and delaying tens of thousands of people using 10 minute DARTS for!!!!

    Seriously, given such low usage, their is no point in delaying DART's for this. This is exactly the type of maximising of rail infrastructure we need.

    Terminate the Rosslare trains at Bray, move to 10 minute DART's, double the Rosslare frequency by turning the Rosslare DMU back around straight away. Done, better service for everyone.

    Here are the numbers, page 31
    https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Heavy_Rail_Census_2014_Full_Report1.pdf

    Rosslare Europort 13
    Rosslare Strand 14
    Wexford 78
    Enniscorthy 38
    Gorey 78
    Arklow 91
    Rathdrum 75
    Wicklow 152
    Kilcoole 33

    And now here are some numbers for the next two stations:
    Greystones 1,561
    Bray 2,573

    Notice how the stations south of Greystones are mostly double digit and then from Greystones on they jump in the four digit range!

    What EOTR is arguing that basically we should be delaying better services to 10's of thousands of DART users for the sake of 500 people a day. I'm sorry it simply makes no logical sense at all, specially as those 500 people could actually end up with a better service too (more Rosslare route frequency).

    nope. trains are regularly heavily used south of greystones. nobody is being delaid and no 10 minute darts are being delaid in the name of providing a direct service to the capital. not terminate the rosslare trains at bray as it will destroy them and remove all those users from public transport. the frequency for the rosslare line can be increased as it is but won't be. it also won't be with a change for change sake in the name of deliberately destroying the service. low quality services for passengers for wicklow and below will not be tolerated.
    there is no delaying anything for the sake of the trains that are used by a lot more then claimed, which provide a direct service to the capital. direct services to the capital is the only thing that makes sense, anything other then that is merritless and would destroy the service and the users will fight it.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #329
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,520 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    I'm sorry EOTR but frankly the stats speak for themselves. Just 572 passengers, delaying more frequent services for thousands of people!

    BTW extra services now would require an extra train, extra driver and would cause more delays for DART's. Quite clearly extra Rosslare services couldn't be put on now, their is simply no space in the current schedule, nevermind a 10 minute DART schedule for them.

    By turning back the Rosslare train at Bray, you could double the schedule on that line, without needing any extra trains or drivers and without interfering with already over congested lines north of Bray. It is an elegant solution.


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    #330
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    end of the road wrote: »
    This is the equivalent of implement something for the sake of it that does nothing, kills passenger numbers and destroys a service, increases journey times by quite a bit. with any old thing used to try and justify it because everyone knows it has no merrit. like i said, the actual users of the service will correctly not stand for this nonsense.

    I'll try asking this again. Why? Why would it kill passenger numbers? Why would changing train make any odds? Why would it increase journey times significantly? Why would the train need to return to the depot? Why?


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    #331
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,520 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    end of the road wrote: »
    nope. trains are regularly heavily used south of greystones.

    Just 572 passengers a day, the numbers are their in black and white, no avoiding it, that is the reality.
    end of the road wrote: »
    nobody is being delaid and no 10 minute darts are being delaid in the name of providing a direct service to the capital.

    Just 572 people delaying 10's of thousands of people from having a higher frequency of service, meaning less waiting at DART platforms and thus faster overall journeys.
    end of the road wrote: »
    This is the equivalent of implement something for the sake of it that does nothing, kills passenger numbers and destroys a service, increases journey times by quite a bit. with any old thing used to try and justify it because everyone knows it has no merrit. like i said, the actual users of the service will correctly not stand for this nonsense.

    Given a vastly improved service to 10's of thousands of people for the sake of minor inconvenience to 572 passengers.


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