Maximizing the current Rail Infrastructure

LuckyLloyd

I think most people here will want to see projects like Dart Underground, Metro North, and other such major investments in the future approved, adequately funded, and brought to completion.

However, in the world within which we live where a lack of political will for such things persists, is there a possibility of quick wins within the parameters of the current infrastructure?

In the last decade we've seen an arguably positive development with the opening of the PPT for €14m, and an arguably wasteful reopening of sections of the Western Rail Corridor. That said, projects like those are indicative of potential within what we have.

Some types of things I could think of that might be worth debating (though I'm sure those on here far more knowledgeable than me could thing of superior opportunities):

- Line / Signalling improvements to enable increase in speeds on Intercity lines
- Reopening the Athlone to Mullingar line
- Investing in the Dublin to Belfast line
- Building out Platform 10 in Houston to give it pedestrian access to the surrounding areas and linking it to the current station. Ultimately allowing Tunnel services to stop there as a "Houston West" option
- Improving Port connections?
- Passenger services from Navan?

I don't know. What would you spend €100m on I guess if it was lying around?

L1011

To be practical, Heuston P10 would need a matching P11; bridge/lifts and an entrance to Conyngham Road. Still worth doing.

Reopen commuter entrance at Connolly, deal with whatever ownership issues keep the Sheriff Street gates closed currently.

Station on the PPT line at Cabra Cement Works

Further passing loops / alignment preservation purchasing Connolly-Malahide

Close Porterstown LC just to get the risk factor away - it was only kept open due to interference by Varadkar.

goingnowhere

- Line / Signalling improvements to enable increase in speeds on Intercity lines
How long is a piece of string, signalling alone to basic modern standards is at least 100 million


- Reopening the Athlone to Mullingar line
No business case and requires second track between Maynooth and Mullingar


- Investing in the Dublin to Belfast line
Requires support for NI as the track north of the border is in poor condition while its 90mph clear that whole way from Malahide to Border bar Dundalk and Drogheda stations


- Building out Platform 10 in Houston to give it pedestrian access to the surrounding areas and linking it to the current station. Ultimately allowing Tunnel services to stop there as a "Houston West" option

Great idea but would cost 5+ million minimum and you have to get a bridge across the Liffey and deal with land issues to get access, hence why it was not done

- Improving Port connections?
Dublin Port already connected as is Waterford

- Passenger services from Navan?
450 million?

LuckyLloyd

L1011 wrote: »

To be practical, Heuston P10 would need a matching P11; bridge/lifts and an entrance to Conyngham Road. Still worth doing.

This is what I meant obv, a platform on the other side is required as a bare minimum.

I like your other suggestions.

goingnowhere wrote: »

How long is a piece of string, signalling alone to basic modern standards is at least 100 million

Surely you'd start on the Dublin / Cork and Dublin / Galway lines and take it from there?

goingnowhere wrote: »

No business case and requires second track between Maynooth and Mullingar

No business case - would the increased capacity / frequency enabled between Dublin and Galway not make it worth it?

goingnowhere wrote: »

Requires support for NI as the track north of the border is in poor condition while its 90mph clear that whole way from Malahide to Border bar Dundalk and Drogheda stations

Surely it would be worth doing given the popularity of the line? Additionally, I would have thought, considering how busy the line is between Connolly and Malahide, that there would be scope for improvements here even if it isn't a drastic overhauling of the entire line?

goingnowhere wrote: »

Great idea but would cost 5+ million minimum and you have to get a bridge across the Liffey and deal with land issues to get access, hence why it was not done

Would it be €5m well spent though? The PPT services look to have a lot of potential to me long term.

goingnowhere wrote: »

Dublin Port already connected as is Waterford

Is there scope for improvements, any quick wins that could allow Irish Rail to improve its Freight Services? Leaving aside their seeming disinterest in this sector, if you could bypass that is there some things that could almost force additional business upon them?

goingnowhere wrote: »

450 million?

:eek:

€450m to enable passenger services from Navan? Does the Tara Mines train not pass through it?

andrewfaulk

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

This is what I meant obv, a platform on the other side is required as a bare minimum.

I like your other suggestions.



Surely you'd start on the Dublin / Cork and Dublin / Galway lines and take it from there?



No business case - would the increased capacity / frequency enabled between Dublin and Galway not make it worth it?




Surely it would be worth doing given the popularity of the line? Additionally, I would have thought, considering how busy the line is between Connolly and Malahide, that there would be scope for improvements here even if it isn't a drastic overhauling of the entire line?




Would it be €5m well spent though? The PPT services look to have a lot of potential to me long term.



Is there scope for improvements, any quick wins that could allow Irish Rail to improve its Freight Services? Leaving aside their seeming disinterest in this sector, if you could bypass that is there some things that could almost force additional business upon them?



:eek:

€450m to enable passenger services from Navan? Does the Tara Mines train not pass through it?

One that ticks two of your boxes would be doubling the portarlington to Athlone line, it would benefit freight by allowing longer trains and also increased frequency on the mayo and Galway lines..

LuckyLloyd

For clarity, I'm not wedded to any particular idea. Just trying to get some discussion going on how to utilise investment from those more knowledgeable than I outside of Dart Underground or similar projects

end of the road

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

€450m to enable passenger services from Navan? Does the Tara Mines train not pass through it?

it does, but it goes via the line to droghida and then down the northern line. If droghida navan was brought up to passenger standards, which it would need to be so a passenger service could be introduced, then going via droghida and then down the northern line would mean a bit of a journey time. realistically it needs to go via clonsilla with the necessary diversions where the route has been breached (won't happen unfortunately) . i suppose if it comes to it, bringing droghida navan up to passenger standards may be better then nothing. or maybe not. it's a hard one as if the route via clonsilla was to reopen in some form years after the droghida navan line had been upgraded to passenger standards, what would you do with droghida navan?

I dont understand why there isn't a shuttle bus at Stephens Green going to Abbey street for luas transfers.

Its too late to set it up now, with BXD ready in a couple of months time, but it always seemed like a lost oppertunity to me.

The various providers, Dublin Bus, Transdev, CIE etc need to realise they aren't competitors, they are complimenting each others services.

ClovenHoof

L1011 wrote: »

To be practical, Heuston P10 would need a matching P11; bridge/lifts and an entrance to Conyngham Road. Still worth doing.

and it should be given a completely new name to distinguish it from Heuston. Call it 'Chaplelizod East' or something.

dowlingm

Third track Fairview-Howth Junction
Double track Maynooth-Enfield, electrify Connolly-Maynooth, DART storage yard in Maynooth
Third track Kildare-Cherryville
Complete original KRP scope

The above works would facilitate better timetabling of national services and provide scope to improve the commuter experience.

I can't think of any improvement outside Dublin/area which would bring many more people to the rail network BEFORE getting the above sorted.

Pete_Cavan

Completing KRP and even extending the quad-tracking to Heuston is surely the best use of any available funds. It would be beneficial to commuter services along the Kildare line and also to intercity services. It also needs to be done for DU anyway so doing it on its own improves the case for DU, which may not involve tunnelling all the way to Inchicore. As part of this, I would look at creating a station around the South Circular Road which would probably be better than the P10 location in terms of attracting passengers.

I have always wondered if using the track outside the north bound platform at Clontarf Road for commuter trains to overtake Darts could be useful. The commuter would have to be scheduled close behind a Dart coming out of Connolly and then the commuter overtakes giving it a clear run north. The same could happen south bound at Clongriffin. Surely it would squeeze more paths onto the line and for little cost?

Taytosnax

+1 on triple tracking Clongriffin/Howth Junction to Fairview.

Implement Clongriffin-Dublin Airport heavy rail as a priority once triple tracking in place.

Implement connecting shuttle buses from M3 Parkway to Navan and to Ashbourne. Time these with every single train.

Re-open Athlone-Mullingar for freight traffic

Double track Athlone-Portarlington.

Pixel Eater

There is lots of train stations surrounded by vacant sites, especially in Dublin, (Navan Road/Clondalkin/City West etc) so even in our biggest city where there is relatively good rail infrastructure, the passenger numbers are not what they could be because of bad planning.

By the simple expedient of building around such stops, these stations could become a lot busier and profitable.

dowlingm

Pixel Eater wrote: »

There is lots of train stations surrounded by vacant sites, especially in Dublin, (Navan Road/Clondalkin/City West etc) so even in our biggest city where there is relatively good rail infrastructure, the passenger numbers are not what they could be because of bad planning.

By the simple expedient of building around such stops, these stations could become a lot busier and profitable.

Build what though. Semi-ds won't move the needle. Townhouses and apartments would.

Pixel Eater

dowlingm wrote: »

Build what though. Semi-ds won't move the needle. Townhouses and apartments would.

Yes, high quality, high-density apartments clustered around the station. What's worrying me is that already the council halved the density requirements and the developers are pushing for low density semi-ds at the Clonburris site.

Jamie2k9

The only solution at minimal cost is longer loops which would enhance operations and potentially cut some delays which exist at loop crossings.

Returning a second platform to a couple of locations on the network would also help. The most immediate case is on the Sligo line.

Stephen15

Taytosnax wrote: »

Re-open Athlone-Mullingar for freight traffic

Why just for freight allow passenger trains use it too move Westport services to Connolly and let them use that line and reopen the stations on it. Also introduce Athlone-Connolly Commuter services.

thomasj

Stephen15 wrote:

Why just for freight allow passenger trains use it too move Westport services to Connolly and let them use that line and reopen the stations on it. Also introduce Athlone-Connolly Commuter services.

You make it sound as if the maynooth line has 4 tracks and plenty of space/paths for extra trains ......

loyatemu

Stephen15 wrote: »

Why just for freight allow passenger trains use it too move Westport services to Connolly and let them use that line and reopen the stations on it. Also introduce Athlone-Connolly Commuter services.

freight can already get from Athlone to Dublin via Portarlington and so could a commuter service if required. Would it be any quicker via Mullingar? The only other town on that line is Moate which is hardly a metropolis.

3 tracking the northern line should be planned for - how much would it cost I wonder? Also closing the remaining crossings south of Pearse.

re: Navan - Rail Users Ireland proposed a cheapo service some years back detailed here. Yes it would be slower than a direct line but probably still faster than the bus.

Pete_Cavan

Seeing as the thread is about "quick fixes" and maximising the limited availability of funds, I dont think 3 tracking the northern line is realistic. It would involve buying a lot of properties, rebuilding multiple bridges, carrying out major engineering work in close proximity to an operating railway, etc., it would be crazy expensive.

Like I said earlier, it should be possible for commuter trains to overtake Darts before entering the section where Darts stop but commuters don't (Clontarf Road to Howth Junction), which is the limiting factor for the existing track, at a fraction of the cost.

The best solution would be for the Metro to be built as heavy rail which effectively 4 tracks that corridor.

dowlingm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The best solution would be for the Metro to be built as heavy rail which effectively 4 tracks that corridor.

It only "four tracks" the corridor if you remove all intermediate DART service because "take the metro". Otherwise Enterprise and outer suburban are still stuck behind stopping traffic.

LXFlyer

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Seeing as the thread is about "quick fixes" and maximising the limited availability of funds, I dont think 3 tracking the northern line is realistic. It would involve buying a lot of properties, rebuilding multiple bridges, carrying out major engineering work in close proximity to an operating railway, etc., it would be crazy expensive.

Like I said earlier, it should be possible for commuter trains to overtake Darts before entering the section where Darts stop but commuters don't (Clontarf Road to Howth Junction), which is the limiting factor for the existing track, at a fraction of the cost.

The best solution would be for the Metro to be built as heavy rail which effectively 4 tracks that corridor.

Unless you have modelled how the 10 minute DART timetable could work alongside the Enterprise and Northern Line trains, which I suspect you haven't, then I don't know how you can say that.

I have examined it- the issue is firmly between Clontarf Road and Raheny - inevitably that means that you need more tracks along that section - that is going to have to happen at some point, along with an up loop at Clongriffin.

rebel456

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I think most people here will want to see projects like Dart Underground, Metro North, and other such major investments in the future approved, adequately funded, and brought to completion.

However, in the world within which we live where a lack of political will for such things persists, is there a possibility of quick wins within the parameters of the current infrastructure?

I don't know. What would you spend €100m on I guess if it was lying around?

Spent a few weeks inter-railing around Europe a few years ago. Noticed that inter-city lines in some Continental cities have a terminal city-centre station, along with a suburban station for those on the edge of the city.

In Ireland this would be stopping Inter-City trains at ParkWest for instance, here travelers could connect with a direct bus via the M50 to the airport, connect with an orbital city bus to Red Cow LUAS, Tallaght, and Blanchardstown - and even onto south Dublin/Sandyford/UCD. And use GoCar or similar short rental service to access the industrial estates for meetings.

This knocks off a number of benefits, including significant time saving on taking the train & shuttle bus to the airport, given that the 747 takes way too long to get from Heuston. Also opens up InterCity rail for those working/living in West Dublin, avoiding the trek into Heuston to catch a train. The private bus operators have already caught onto this by offering services that stop at the Red Cow LUAS.

Ideally airport services would eventually be delivered by DART Underground & Metro North connection, but that is many many years off.

A similar set up for the Sligo line as maybe Navan Road, not too well versed on those stations.

IE 222

Is the Navan line not already up to standard for the most part. A signalling upgrade would obviously be needed.

Not everyone likes the idea but a turn back and insulation of second southbound platform at Clongriffin would help ease pathing issues at Malahide.

Reconfigure Glasnevin Jct. allowing PPT services run via Newcome Jct or Docklands. More use of Newcome Jct and allowing Sligo services to terminate/depart on platform 7 would help ease Maynooth line.

In terms of Metro North im totally againts current plans of operation a cheaper Dart alternative IMO is availble and offers more. Given the news of new housing been planned for Lucan/Clondalkin surely DU is of higher importance than MN now.

Connolly quad tracking is needed regardless even starting small easy sections will offer short term solutions without committing to the whole project. 4 tracking from Connolly to Clontarf wouldnt be a massive job and wouldnt require any bridge replacements or land purchases.

In terms of freight expansion developing new hubs in Cork ect would be more of a priority. Personally I beleive Limerick Jct could play a massive part in developing new freight business by using it as transfer hub. A lot of North wall could be sold and keep 4 running/passing/ holding lines were the current through lines onto Alexandria rd are as no loading / unloading is done these days.

tabbey

loyatemu wrote: »

3 tracking the northern line should be planned for - how much would it cost I wonder? Also closing the remaining crossings south of Pearse.

Even three tracks is inadequate, four is essential.

It won't come cheap, but the longer the government waits to take action, the more difficult and costly it will become.

In the last couple of decades, Dublin City Council and Fingal Co Council have allowed development up to the track at Malahide, Portmarnock and Kilbarrack, the latter including houses built by the council.

There is no planning for the future. The last body with any foresight was the GNR

dowlingm

IE 222 wrote: »

In terms of freight expansion developing new hubs in Cork ect would be more of a priority. Personally I beleive Limerick Jct could play a massive part in developing new freight business by using it as transfer hub. A lot of North wall could be sold and keep 4 running/passing/ holding lines were the current through lines onto Alexandria rd are as no loading / unloading is done these days.

IE have successfully pared down their freight business to a steady and unimposing earner. At the same time they have disposed of yards in North Esk and the like. Any reinstatement is likely to be similar to Ballina's barebones facility.

A few points:

• Where is the freight in Cork being produced (i.e. how close to a plausible railhead) and where is it going?
• Why is Limerick Junction a logical hub when it is a good distance from the M7 and M8?
• Development pressure may move some Dublin Port activities out of North Wall, so IE would be wise to be cagey about what to commit to

If Brexit bites hard at the Border, it might be an idea for IE to try and interest NIR in employing their combined 071/111 resources for freight purposes if thereby it could offer a more seamless customs experience than individual lorries would, both for Ireland-NI flows and an intermodal yard at Larne to bring goods to/from Scotland - but a lot of things would have to line up to make it work.

IE 222

dowlingm wrote: »

IE have successfully pared down their freight business to a steady and unimposing earner. At the same time they have disposed of yards in North Esk and the like. Any reinstatement is likely to be similar to Ballina's barebones facility.

A few points:

• Where is the freight in Cork being produced (i.e. how close to a plausible railhead) and where is it going?
• Why is Limerick Junction a logical hub when it is a good distance from the M7 and M8?
• Development pressure may move some Dublin Port activities out of North Wall, so IE would be wise to be cagey about what to commit to

If Brexit bites hard at the Border, it might be an idea for IE to try and interest NIR in employing their combined 071/111 resources for freight purposes if thereby it could offer a more seamless customs experience than individual lorries would, both for Ireland-NI flows and an intermodal yard at Larne to bring goods to/from Scotland - but a lot of things would have to line up to make it work.

Im not knocking what IE have done with their freight business the last number of years. In my view they made the right decision.

I agree IE will no longer need massive freight yards anymore other than an increase in size of current Dublin Port loading should the business increase. Smaller road/rail sides with 2 - 3 lines is enough. The big cranes ect are not needed unless there is 5 or 6 train loads a day arriving.

Limerick Jct: Run Waterford - Ballina freight train daily incresed to 26 wagons via Limerick Jct and Athenry. A second train between Dublin & Cork can transfer containers here as well. This will open up Ballina, Cork, Dublin, Limerick, Galway Waterford and anywhere inbetween and allow containers travel between say Cork and Waterford without chartering a whole train. Once demand reaches the requirements for a whole train a direct service can be introduced. Its very little in terms of investment.

If custom checks become a reality after Brexit i do beleive IE will be a winner here if they are on the ball. It will be a lot easier to check a few trains in one or two locations than 100s of trucks at 100s of locations.

rebel456

IE 222 wrote: »

I
Limerick Jct: Run Waterford - Ballina freight train daily incresed to 26 wagons via Limerick Jct and Athenry. A second train between Dublin & Cork can transfer containers here as well. This will open up Ballina, Cork, Dublin, Limerick, Galway Waterford and anywhere inbetween and allow containers travel between say Cork and Waterford without chartering a whole train. Once demand reaches the requirements for a whole train a direct service can be introduced. Its very little in terms of investment.

If custom checks become a reality after Brexit i do beleive IE will be a winner here if they are on the ball. It will be a lot easier to check a few trains in one or two locations than 100s of trucks at 100s of locations.

All you are doing there is adding cost via having to transfer freight between various modes of transport. Freight coming in through our ports is not bulk for one destination, it's smaller items going to various destinations throughout the country.

In the current model, if a container load needs to go to Listowel in Kerry for instance then they ship via Dublin, change to a lorry and pop down the M7. In your model the same container would have to change from ship to train, train to train in Limerick Jct, and finally train to lorry in Limerick for onward delivery. And just think of the additional manpower needed for such movements. It just could not compete given the lower cost of truck transport - and reliability over rail, if your haulage operator goes on strike you get another one, if the road is blocked you get delayed but can go around.

Freight will sustain on Irish railways via niche markets, such as what happens in Mayo. But that's it unfortunately. And intercity motorway network makes its much quicker and cheaper to go via road - given how small Ireland is too. Hence why IR freight fell away once the roads go better.

end of the road

rebel456 wrote: »

All you are doing there is adding cost via having to transfer freight between various modes of transport. Freight coming in through our ports is not bulk for one destination, it's smaller items going to various destinations throughout the country.

In the current model, if a container load needs to go to Listowel in Kerry for instance then they ship via Dublin, change to a lorry and pop down the M7. In your model the same container would have to change from ship to train, train to train in Limerick Jct, and finally train to lorry in Limerick for onward delivery. And just think of the additional manpower needed for such movements. It just could not compete given the lower cost of truck transport - and reliability over rail, if your haulage operator goes on strike you get another one, if the road is blocked you get delayed but can go around.

Freight will sustain on Irish railways via niche markets, such as what happens in Mayo. But that's it unfortunately. And intercity motorway network makes its much quicker and cheaper to go via road - given how small Ireland is too. Hence why IR freight fell away once the roads go better.

no it wouldn't go from ship to train to train, just from ship to train and then to truck, just like how the current mayo lot does. man in a mobile fork lift/crain is all you'd need. could be competitive once the eventuality hits that the trucks will have to pay in full for their infrastructure costs. also once those carbon fines come fast and furious we will have to start encouraging a shift.
his idea could allow the road spending to go a lot further with less trucks ripping up the roads. i should think there are other bulk flows out there and yes the small stuff may continue via truck but there are customers for the railway if they want them but they have to go get them just like in relation to the passenger side.

rebel456

end of the road wrote: »

no it wouldn't go from ship to train to train, just from ship to train and then to truck, just like how the current mayo lot does. man in a mobile fork lift/crain is all you'd need. could be competitive once the eventuality hits that the trucks will have to pay in full for their infrastructure costs. also once those carbon fines come fast and furious we will have to start encouraging a shift.
his idea could allow the road spending to go a lot further with less trucks ripping up the roads. i should think there are other bulk flows out there and yes the small stuff may continue via truck but there are customers for the railway if they want them but they have to go get them just like in relation to the passenger side.

No... the idea proposed was that Limerick Junction would become a freight hub thus needing transfer from a Dub-Cork train to one that serves Limerick - or Tralee, or Waterford, or Galway, etc. Each transfer requires manpower and time. In effect though, even one extra transfer is enough to make it uneconomical given the relatively short distances in Ireland and now extensive motorway network. It simply does not make sense to load a train with containers in Dublin, only to unload them in Limerick Junction two hours later to a truck when you can save yourself that extra transfer cost - and time involved.

The 'road ripping' by trucks mostly affects our smaller roads, something train transit won't solve as it is only replacing the motorway section - vast majority of cargo still requires a truck to get to its eventual destination.

And in regards fuel costs - trains use diesel, as far as I recall. Rising fuel prices will affect rail and road.

LuckyLloyd

It is surely in the national interest to have greatly expanded rail freight volumes. From an environmental perspective it is certainly preferable.