Anti-vaxxers

paul71

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Great story bro :rolleyes:

Not only is bro anti vax. Bro is climate change denier. Bro reads stories by ridiculed scottish doctors who beleive fat does not cause heart disease.


There just not enough tinfoil in the world.

Wibbs

paul71 wrote: »

Bro reads stories by ridiculed scottish doctors who beleive fat does not cause heart disease.

Actually that part seems to be on far more solid ground. Good fats anyway. Sugars and insulin resistance seems to have a much larger role in cardiovascular health and disease than was once realised.

Hamsterchops

I was nearly agreeing with the Anti-Vaxers the other day, after my AstraZenica jab, which resulted in me getting the most horrific 'flu-like' symptoms which lasted for 48 hours approx!

God I thought it would never pass, shaking freezing, boiling, headache, weak legs, the lot, and I did think for one moment "that bloody Vaccine is going to kill me", but it didn't.

In theory I now have 85% protection against getting the worst affects of Coivid-19, thanks to the vaccine.

moonage

moonage wrote: »

I think it's anti-science to indiscrimatately label as "anti-vaxx" all who are sceptical about, have concerns about or have negative things to say about vaccination in general or a particular vaccine.

Unfortunately this is true about any buzz word. Words like transphobe and racist and sexist and misogynist are thrown around a lot these days for even the most minor slight. It's hardly unique to this topic.

If people think they can weaponize a word in lieu of actual debate and conversation - then some will. I have even seen it done by a couple of the more psuedo "intellectuals" with words like "neck beard" that they use to "other" some individual or group beyond the requirement for discussion. The point for such people is to posture superiority in lieu of actually establishing any.

But - from the other side - the behavior of antivax people does lend to this. The science of their fallen heroes like Wakefield has totally failed them. Any time they try to enter the discussion at that level they get their ass removed - placed on a plate - and handed to them with a smirk.

So their behavior has become a little more underhanded. They know they can not compete on the stage of fact. So we get other tactics instead.

There is a lot of the old "I am not antivax but -" moves made. There is a lot of the link dumping of scare mongering nonsense. There are even things wholesale made up like hidden nano-chips from Bill Gates being hidden inside the vaccine

And as we saw just yesterday there are people who pop up periodically to post the same set of anecdotes they did the month before of people who - on no basis whatsoever - collect to randomly blame vaccination for some arbitrary symptom they have decided must be connected.

And these hit and run jobs - like a game of whack-a-mole - lend to an environment where those few who actually are asking genuine questions - or querying some aspect of vaccination in good faith - are misidentified as being with those scare mongering cowardly antivaxxer hit and run moles.

Which is not good for the rest of us because while we do want to challenge and call out and identify the anti-vaxxer nuts - we do want to educate the general public better where we or they themselves feel there is ignorance. So it is indeed a shame when the antivax term is overused. But we can at least understand why it is so.

Hamsterchops

Hamsterchops wrote: »

I was nearly agreeing with the Anti-Vaxers the other day, after my AstraZenica jab, which resulted in me getting the most horrific 'flu-like' symptoms which lasted for 48 hours approx!

God I thought it would never pass, shaking freezing, boiling, headache, weak legs, the lot, and I did think for one moment "that bloody Vaccine is going to kill me", but it didn't.

In theory I now have 85% protection against getting the worst affects of Coivid-19, thanks to the vaccine.

Oh yep, I had a pretty unpleasant 48 hours too. But was such a relief to be covered by the end of it. I do think the government made a substantial error by not being pretty vocal about what to expect in the short term. It leaves far too much space for the antivaxxers to go off on rants that end up confusing or making the public more doubtful.

The J Stands for Jay

Wibbs wrote: »

I've known quite the number who subscribe to magical thinking and hearsay "science". Alternative health is a huge area. As but one example here's a list of chiropractors in Dublin. I can think of three anti vaxers off the top of my head, though two are more about the current covid vaccines. Some of the stuff I saw forwarded on whatsapp from men and women I thought of as well clued in during this pandemic surprised me. The life sections of online and off periodicals almost exclusively aimed at women are chock full of ChickThink. It clearly sells to a wide enough audience.

Chiropractic and ****ing homeopathy are both covered by health insurance, despite being bollox.

Igotadose

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh yep, I had a pretty unpleasant 48 hours too. But was such a relief to be covered by the end of it.

Pretty much what we went through as well. And we kept saying, "imagine: this is BETTER than getting the virus." Really wish we didn't have to wait 12 weeks for the final dose, but it is what it is.

Seth Brundle

Those feelings of discomfort for a day or so afterwards affects some vaccine recipients and to my knowledge is a good sign.
This is a normal side effect caused by the 5G embedding itself into your cells and reacting with the Windows software.

Wibbs

McGaggs wrote: »

Chiropractic and ****ing homeopathy are both covered by health insurance, despite being bollox.

Yup, though health insurance is all about the cash and squeezing as much of same. QV The American system where it has more free rein. If enough people wanted it and enough cash could be made from it they'd cover leeches and exorcisms.

Igotadose

Igotadose wrote: »

Pretty much what we went through as well. And we kept saying, "imagine: this is BETTER than getting the virus." Really wish we didn't have to wait 12 weeks for the final dose, but it is what it is.

I had a family member who was on a ventilator for a pretty extended period. They survived but recovery from that sort of thing is dreadful. I say that as a person who has a fair bit of experience with extended hospital stays. The 12 weeks is definitely a tad annoying but even after dose one, we have pretty substantial protections from it is my logic. We're nearly there.

Wibbs

Igotadose wrote: »

Pretty much what we went through as well. And we kept saying, "imagine: this is BETTER than getting the virus."

On the other hand and this is being missed in the understandable panic, for the vast majority of halfway healthy people, over 99%, getting the virus itself is mild or even asymptomatic. Now there is long covid which is looking to be a thing and of course it can be and is more deadly for the elderly and those with underlying conditions and they should and need to be protected, as do our health services, so vaccines are a positive and people should be vaccinated*, but this pandemic is not nearly the end of times it's made out to be. Not even close.

Even on the cruise ships where it spread and where the age range of the passengers was decidedly elderly, it didn't infect everyone, in some cases not even the majority and the deaths were pretty much all in the over 70's and 80's. EG the Diamond Princess. 700 odd infections among 3700 people all sharing the same floating petri dish, 14 dead, all over 70. If it had been something like smallpox, at least a quarter would have died of all ages. Though there might be some irony there as more of the elderly would have had been vaccinated against smallpox and so the younger people would have been at more risk.

One of the positives out of this mess is that at least now if something really bloody deadly comes out of the jungle or a wet market or industrialised piggery - and it will - we should be more prepared. Not least with regard to the psychology of groups. One thing we have learned is that the phrase "avoid it like the plague" is not something that can be applied to all. If something really deadly comes along you will have a large enough cohort who will put on tinfoil hats and spread infection without a care.





*I have to highlight this in case some think I'm anti vaccination or playing this down.

Igotadose

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Those feelings of discomfort for a day or so afterwards affects some vaccine recipients and to my knowledge is a good sign.
This is a normal side effect caused by the 5G embedding itself into your cells and reacting with the Windows software.

But... I thought you had to tug on your earlobe 3 times to get the update?

Ahh well, another failed update. What do you expect.

silverharp

Webster is getting a bit Orwellian with their change in definitions

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anti-vaxxer

Definition of anti-vaxxer
: a person who opposes vaccination or laws that mandate vaccination

mikhail

I have no problem with that definition.

TheSegal

Wibbs wrote: »

One of the positives out of this mess is that at least now if something really bloody deadly comes out of the jungle or a wet market or industrialised piggery - and it will - we should be more prepared. Not least with regard to the psychology of groups. One thing we have learned is that the phrase "avoid it like the plague" is not something that can be applied to all. If something really deadly comes along you will have a large enough cohort who will put on tinfoil hats and spread infection without a care.

*I have to highlight this in case some think I'm anti vaccination or playing this down.

A part of me is so curious to find out what would happen if a new disease emerged that had a very high death rate, would the same clowns be out protesting and wanting an end to lockdowns or would they actually listen and just cop on to themselves? It's pretty scary to think of, especially when you have some anti-vaxxers proudly saying that they went to measles parties as children to get it out of the way and everyone knew how dangerous that illness was!

silverharp

mikhail wrote: »

I have no problem with that definition.

a lot of people would though, vaccines have always been given on a voluntary basis. Its legitimate to have a position where one is pro vaccine but wouldnt agree with the state forcing people to take vaccines

Dohnjoe

TheSegal wrote: »

A part of me is so curious to find out what would happen if a new disease emerged that had a very high death rate, would the same clowns be out protesting and wanting an end to lockdowns or would they actually listen and just cop on to themselves? It's pretty scary to think of, especially when you have some anti-vaxxers proudly saying that they went to measles parties as children to get it out of the way and everyone knew how dangerous that illness was!

Some people are ignorant out of sheer spite. I have no doubt there would be assorted anti-vaxxers and deniers protesting and refusing to comply to measures even in a much more lethal pandemic.

ancapailldorcha

silverharp wrote: »

Webster is getting a bit Orwellian with their change in definitions

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anti-vaxxer

That's not what Orwellian means.

circadian

McGaggs wrote: »

Chiropractic and ****ing homeopathy are both covered by health insurance, despite being bollox.

Not sure about Ireland but when I lived in Canada I had to use a Chiropractor for a back injury and it all went well. There seemed to be a pretty high bar to become a certified practitioner there, maybe the requirements are lower here.

To sum it up, it felt like I was at a physio but for joint/skeletal injuries. He gave me a load of exercises that work and continue to do so if I have niggles.

I think a lot of these types of therapies are valid,it's just that they probably aren't regulated as stringently as traditional medicine.

Homeopathy can **** off though.

ancapailldorcha

circadian wrote: »

Not sure about Ireland but when I lived in Canada I had to use a Chiropractor for a back injury and it all went well. There seemed to be a pretty high bar to become a certified practitioner there, maybe the requirements are lower here.

To sum it up, it felt like I was at a physio but for joint/skeletal injuries. He gave me a load of exercises that work and continue to do so if I have niggles.

I think a lot of these types of therapies are valid,it's just that they probably aren't regulated as stringently as traditional medicine.

Homeopathy can **** off though.

I know someone who went to a chiropractor. She said she did her research and it worked out, a bit like yourself. She didn't pretend it wasn't bollox but just said that it made her feel better. She wasn't remotely anti-vaxx or anything like that. It's not something I can say much about one way or another.

And yeah, homeopathy is just water.

silverharp

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

That's not what Orwellian means.

shifting the meaning of words with a political aim is a reasonable use of the term Orwellian

this definition of antiax fits with what I understand the term to mean

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/antivax

adjective Informal: Disparaging.
of, relating to, or noting people, especially parents of young children, who distrust or are against vaccination:
the antivax movement.

ancapailldorcha

silverharp wrote: »

shifting the meaning of words with a political aim is a reasonable use of the term Orwellian

this definition fits with what I understand the term to mean

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/antivax

Where's the political aim? Objective proof please as it seems like the usual right wing shielding of cranks from criticism.

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I know someone who went to a chiropractor. She said she did her research and it worked out, a bit like yourself. She didn't pretend it wasn't bollox but just said that it made her feel better. She wasn't remotely anti-vaxx or anything like that. It's not something I can say much about one way or another.

And yeah, homeopathy is just water.

I sort of think that chiropractors work out more like a fluke. You'll get some placebo effect, maybe some set of coincidences result in it helping. But the thing that weighs so heavily against it is that it's probably as likely for it to go horribly wrong resulting in making injury worse.

ancapailldorcha

Deleted User wrote: »

I sort of think that chiropractors work out more like a fluke. You'll get some placebo effect, maybe some set of coincidences result in it helping. But the thing that weighs so heavily against it is that it's probably as likely for it to go horribly wrong resulting in making injury worse.

That could well be it. I honestly don't know.

I do gleefully remember the time when some homeopathic remedies got contaminated with antibiotics and had to be withdrawn though.

silverharp

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Where's the political aim? Objective proof please as it seems like the usual right wing shielding of cranks from criticism.

unreasonably demonising people who are critical of an authoritarian state's actions or potential actions should be pointed out , it would fit with the precautionary principle. Defining someone who thinks vaccines should be voluntary as "antivax" is unreasonably demonising such an individual, the aim is to shut people up

ancapailldorcha

silverharp wrote: »

unreasonably demonising people who are critical of an authoritarian state's actions or potential actions should be pointed out , it would fit with the precautionary principle. Defining someone who thinks vaccines should be voluntary as "antivax" is unreasonably demonising such an individual, the aim is to shut people up

So nothing then. Grand.

Anti-vaxxers are perpetrators, not victims who spew disinformation and are unaccountable. Legitimate criticism of such people should be allowed despite modern conservatism's desperation to shut down said criticism with hysterics like the above as well as constantly trying to poison the debate.

And don't even start me on the canard that vaccines should be voluntary. We've had anti-vaxxer after anti-vaxxer roll up here to trot out varying lines that are as transparent as they are disingenuous. It's there with similar drivel like "genuine concerns", "not against all vaccines" and "What about the people with narcolepsy that I otherwise don't give a flying f*ck about?"

The feelings of disingenuous people seeking to harm other people's health mean nothing to me. They can and should be criticized. If their nonsense can't stand up to scrutiny, that's their problem.

Wibbs

TheSegal wrote: »

A part of me is so curious to find out what would happen if a new disease emerged that had a very high death rate, would the same clowns be out protesting and wanting an end to lockdowns or would they actually listen and just cop on to themselves?

I suspect it would depend on the nature of the disease, how obviously horrible it looked when infected etc, like ebola and how many of close friends and family were affected. Even so yeah I would bet that you would still have a cohort of dangerous idiots on the go.

It's pretty scary to think of, especially when you have some anti-vaxxers proudly saying that they went to measles parties as children to get it out of the way and everyone knew how dangerous that illness was!

Actually they didn't and it wasn't, or at least wasn't considered so when I was a kid in the 70's. It was an expected, normalised part of childhood. You got measles and mumps and chicken pox and various snotty nosed illnesses. Now when I read stats like 1 in 4 are hospitalised with measles I certainly wonder. All of my friends and classmates caught it, had a week off school and that was it. None required hospital. Nobody died. I remember chicken pox being much more uncomfortable. Well I can actually remember having chicken pox. I can barely recall my bout of measles at all, beyond my dad buying me a load of comics to tide me over. As I said, unless the measles virus has become far more nasty and what me and my peers went through was a weaker strain(which is entirely possible) if I hadn't read of the dangers of it I would have had no particular worry hearing someone caught it.

silverharp

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

So nothing then. Grand.

Anti-vaxxers are perpetrators, not victims who spew disinformation and are unaccountable. Legitimate criticism of such people should be allowed despite modern conservatism's desperation to shut down said criticism with hysterics like the above as well as constantly trying to poison the debate.

And don't even start me on the canard that vaccines should be voluntary. We've had anti-vaxxer after anti-vaxxer roll up here to trot out varying lines that are as transparent as they are disingenuous. It's there with similar drivel like "genuine concerns", "not against all vaccines" and "What about the people with narcolepsy that I otherwise don't give a flying f*ck about?"

The feelings of disingenuous people seeking to harm other people's health mean nothing to me. They can and should be criticized. If their nonsense can't stand up to scrutiny, that's their problem.

you process information your way , Ill do it mine. I had the AZ vaccine yet according to Webster Im antivax because I would have a default opinion that the state shouldnt force people to take a vaccine. My body my choice.

Real Life

silverharp wrote: »

you process information your way , Ill do it mine. I had the AZ vaccine yet according to Webster Im antivax because I would have a default opinion that the state shouldnt force people to take a vaccine. My body my choice.

Funnily enough this line that anti vaxxers seem to be using a lot now and its mostly the same people that were against repealing the 8th amendment.

Wibbs

silverharp wrote: »

I would have a default opinion that the state shouldnt force people to take a vaccine. My body my choice.

I would tend to agree with that. I can see the argument that there are too many morons out there who caould affect the wider population, but I have grave concerns about giving state bodies any more power. Though corporations have as much if not more power over people's everyday lives. If Google insisted that all their employees were vaccinated it would have as much weight as a governmental action.