Anti-vaxxers

Sardonicat

I dont know anyone IRL who subscribes to BroScience or ChickThink.

Wibbs

paul71 wrote: »

So did asking how the human race survive 10s of thousands of years without vaccines.

Yup. While longevity for adults overall hasn't increased that much, about an extra ten years, what has changed massively in the last hundred years is how many people have been able to reach adulthood. Go back through your family history and you'll almost certainly find great grandparents or depending on how old you are, even grandparents who lost children to diseases we barely think of today. Childhood mortality was staggering to the modern eye. Think of your class in school. In say the 1850's about a third wouldn't have made it. And that change came about because of sanitation, antibiotics and vaccinations. We have made incredible strides in medical science that have impacted all of us, but those "basic" three changes were the killer apps.

Indeed we are so used to this relatively new state of things that it could be argued that we can overreact to perceived threats. Especially ones that we think has caught medical science napping. Covid 19 is one such threat. If Covid had been around in say 1918, it would have barely been a blip compared to Spanish Flu and when Smallpox was still in play in many parts of the world. It would likely have gone entirely unnoticed. A virus that kills a percentage of majority 80+ year olds, when 80+ year olds were smaller in number anyway. Covid appears to have a mortality rate about three times higher than "normal" flu, which is bad, though again the vast majority of deaths are in the very old or already ill. Spanish flu depending on the stats you read was between six and ten times more deadly and also killed those in the prime of life. Smallpox could kill between a third and half of all those infected by it and those that survived were usually left permanently scarred by it. And it's easy to forget that smallpox was only eradicated in the 1970's. I was alive back then, as many of us were. It's gone entirely because of vaccination. How do anti vaxxers square that circle?

Wibbs

Sardonicat wrote: »

I dont know anyone IRL who subscribes to BroScience or ChickThink.

I've known quite the number who subscribe to magical thinking and hearsay "science". Alternative health is a huge area. As but one example here's a list of chiropractors in Dublin. I can think of three anti vaxers off the top of my head, though two are more about the current covid vaccines. Some of the stuff I saw forwarded on whatsapp from men and women I thought of as well clued in during this pandemic surprised me. The life sections of online and off periodicals almost exclusively aimed at women are chock full of ChickThink. It clearly sells to a wide enough audience.

ancapailldorcha

It happens. I've met plenty of people coming out with various flavours of nonsense like the conspiracy theory of pharma firms suppressing the cure for cancer, chemtrails and so on. Then, as Wibbs says there are whole business sectors which exist to peddle drivel and now we've social media which lowers the bar further.

ohnonotgmail

Sardonicat wrote: »

I dont know anyone IRL who subscribes to BroScience or ChickThink.

I blocked my own brother on FB because of the nonsense he was sharing.

Hotblack Desiato

My mother used to talk about the large number of late teens / early 20s young adults she knew who came up from the country to work in Dublin and were dead of TB within a few years.

Sardonicat

Wibbs wrote: »

I've known quite the number who subscribe to magical thinking and hearsay "science". Alternative health is a huge area. As but one example here's a list of chiropractors in Dublin. I can think of three anti vaxers off the top of my head, though two are more about the current covid vaccines. Some of the stuff I saw forwarded on whatsapp from men and women I thought of as well clued in during this pandemic surprised me. The life sections of online and off periodicals almost exclusively aimed at women are chock full of ChickThink. It clearly sells to a wide enough audience.

Depressing, isn't it? I like to think that for most it's just a sort of phase they go through in early adulthood. I knew one woman who was into loads of alternative therapies and spiritualities and past lives and would bang on about respecting alternative beliefs but would openly sneer at Catholocs for 'believing in fairy tales'. She even showed up to a seminar given by one of our teachers who happened to be a nun sporting a t shirt with an anti Christian slogan. When I pointed out to her that the lecturer might feel personally attacked facing that from the front of the room, her response was she didnt mean her. One of the most least self aware hypocrites I ever had the misfortune to encounter. I'd put money on her being an anti vaxxer these days.

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

Indeed we are so used to this relatively new state of things that it could be argued that we can overreact to perceived threats.

On this point it does seem a quirk of human nature that the safer an environment and society is, the more unsafe many people can feel.

I would contend that because human nature itself evolved over tens, even hundreds of thousands of years of very unsafe environments that we have a baseline of safe/unsafe in our collective heads and a societal and individual "immune system" based on that. In fairly safe enough environments with the odd threat that's in some sort of balance and it also reacts pretty well to very unsafe environments, but because very safe environments were so rare in our history it doesn't quite know how to react in them.

I would contend that things like the rise of some mental illnesses and societal woes are an "allergic reaction" of sorts. Where this "immune system" designed to fight lots of threats, is confused in low threat environments so over reacts to non or lower threats. Paranoia such as is found in antivax types would be one such symptom of this.

Sardonicat

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I blocked my own brother on FB because of the nonsense he was sharing.

That's a pity. Its very hard to deal with people like that in your personal life.

Wibbs

Sardonicat wrote: »

Depressing, isn't it? I like to think that for most it's just a sort of phase they go through in early adulthood.

I have noticed it comes along like you say around that time, when people are still figuring out who they are in the world and are trying on different hats. Then tends to fade out in the 30's, but then can come back with a bang in middle age.

Add in something, anything that throws people's lives, more the routines they've built up in their lives after they figured out who they were post adolescence and magical thinking can really get a hold. Divorce, bereavements, job loss etc can all play into this, but this pandemic is a real beauty for this.

Covid is actually not that deadly at all. It's far less deadly than pretty much any major pandemic in history. However our reaction to it has been very strong and the changes in people's lives have been pretty wide ranging. Old well practised routines are out the window for many and this has had an effect. One I noticed after a few months of lockdown was fatalism coming into it. People not caring if they caught covid or no, even dying or no. Others becoming increasingly anxious because old routines were gone and unlikely to come back and they'd have to invent new ones.

ancapailldorcha

Wibbs wrote: »

On this point it does seem a quirk of human nature that the safer an environment and society is, the more unsafe many people can feel.

I would contend that because human nature itself evolved over tens, even hundreds of thousands of years of very unsafe environments that we have a baseline of safe/unsafe in our collective heads and a societal and individual "immune system" based on that. In fairly safe enough environments with the odd threat that's in some sort of balance and it also reacts pretty well to very unsafe environments, but because very safe environments were so rare in our history it doesn't quite know how to react in them.

I would contend that things like the rise of some mental illnesses and societal woes are an "allergic reaction" of sorts. Where this "immune system" designed to fight lots of threats, is confused in low threat environments so over reacts to non or lower threats. Paranoia such as is found in antivax types would be one such symptom of this.

Fascinating. It's like there's an element of the human psyche that can't accept being safe and so acts out.

Brian?

Wibbs wrote: »

I've known quite the number who subscribe to magical thinking and hearsay "science". Alternative health is a huge area. As but one example here's a list of chiropractors in Dublin. I can think of three anti vaxers off the top of my head, though two are more about the current covid vaccines. Some of the stuff I saw forwarded on whatsapp from men and women I thought of as well clued in during this pandemic surprised me. The life sections of online and off periodicals almost exclusively aimed at women are chock full of ChickThink. It clearly sells to a wide enough audience.

Anecdotal warning.

I remember hearing that there is an unusually high number of Chiropractors that are Scientologists and who are anti-vax.

It makes sense if your entire "profession" is based on pseudo science that you buy into other nonsense easily.

Brian?

Wibbs wrote: »

Both genders, but yep, pretty much, though there are some broad differences along gender lines. But both BroScience and ChickThink are based in ignorance and groupthink reinforcing said ignorance. It's hard to say which gets more traction in current western society. It could be argued that because more women are in media ChickThink has the upper hand, but then you have Fox news and Joe Rogen...

On incel culture, fascism and football? Incels are more likely among men because of the nature of the mating game. Their opposite number could be described as women looking for relationships but only getting offers of sex. Fascism or any political ism really is just as much bought into by both genders. Indeed when an ism is in play as the majority politic women are as likely if not more likely to be supporters of it and rebels against it are more likely to be male*. I would contend that women are more the foot soldiers when it comes to the daily nitty gritty of supporting the status quo of societies.

I was being a bit flippant with my comments on incels, fascism etc. .


I have never heard the term ChickThink before. I instantly dislike it as much as I dislike the term Broscience.

Be right back

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

My mother used to talk about the large number of late teens / early 20s young adults she knew who came up from the country to work in Dublin and were dead of TB within a few years.

I knew a lady who had TB when she was young, and it affected her for the rest of her life.

Brian?

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Fascinating. It's like there's an element of the human psyche that can't accept being safe and so acts out.

I think there's something to this.

We are not built to be content. We are built to be aware of threats and create counter measures to the threats.

These primal instincts are probably why we are so good at innovation and are probably behind ambition if you peel the layers back.

I know personally, if I don't feel any stress from work I find stupid reasons to be stressed. So I have to be consistently challenged to feel ok. Obviously if the stress becomes too much I tip over the edge into being unproductive, but I am equally unproductive if not stressed.

Sardonicat

Be right back wrote: »

I knew a lady who had TB when she was young, and it affected her for the rest of her life.

My mother was one such individual and she became an 'anti-vaxxer', though the term didnt really exist til recently. While it seems counter-intuitive for her to take that stance given what she went through, the experience traumatised her and damaged her psychologically and left her with a life long deep distrust of medicine. I didn't get any of my vaccines til my 20s! I think this is a good example of the kind of circumstances that need to exist to allow an otherwise intelligent human being to ditch rational thought and give themselves over to conspiracy theories. I won't go onto the specifics of what my mother endured, as I want to research and investigate the circumstances myself someday, but it destroyed her psychologically and that's something her kids and even her grandkids are still dealing with to this day.

ancapailldorcha

Brian? wrote: »

I think there's something to this.

We are not built to be content. We are built to be aware of threats and create counter measures to the threats.

These primal instincts are probably why we are so good at innovation and are probably behind ambition if you peel the layers back.

I know personally, if I don't feel any stress from work I find stupid reasons to be stressed. So I have to be consistently challenged to feel ok. Obviously if the stress becomes too much I tip over the edge into being unproductive, but I am equally unproductive if not stressed.

I'd agree wholly with this. If I don't have enough real problems, I'll invent a few daft and fake scenarios to fret over. It's all illogical but that's the human brain for you.

Wibbs

Brian? wrote: »

I have never heard the term ChickThink before. I instantly dislike it as much as I dislike the term Broscience.

ChickThink is one of mine in fairness. My corresponding term for the idiocy that is Broscience and just as prevalent, if not more so in the mainstream these days. The "lifestyle" sections in the various media are good examples. The various daytime telly shows fronted by women past the first flush, but not yet of the age of wisdom positively stagger under the weight of it. Alternative" health is stroooong with it, though it's often men that are the "gurus" and purveyors of that stuff. Tumblr blogs and the like and certain areas of Facebook and Whatsapp are mother lodes for it. As they can be for Broscience. Youtube/reddit/forums tend to more favour the Bro stuff though.

ohnonotgmail

Wibbs wrote: »

ChickThink is one of mine in fairness. My corresponding term for the idiocy that is Broscience and just as prevalent, if not more so in the mainstream these days. The "lifestyle" sections in the various media are good examples. The various daytime telly shows fronted by women past the first flush, but not yet of the age of wisdom positively stagger under the weight of it. Alternative" health is stroooong with it, though it's often men that are the "gurus" and purveyors of that stuff. Tumblr blogs and the like and certain areas of Facebook and Whatsapp are mother lodes for it. As they can be for Broscience. Youtube/reddit/forums tend to more favour the Bro stuff though.

You can look to that Gwyneth Paltrow for some of that nonsense. She starts every day with a healthy glass of alkaline water. She adds lemon juice to that. *blinks*

Sardonicat

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

You can look to that Gwyneth Paltrow for some of that nonsense. She starts every day with a healthy glass of alkaline water. She adds lemon juice to that. *blinks*

Does she really believe that and di that it visit just a branding gimmick, I wonder?

My mother is a devout Catholic who participates in prayer groups. Within these, there are a smattering of individuals who are steadfastly anti-vaccine. This is on the basis of their belief that vaccines contain foetuses. Now I regard them as dangerous lunatics for holding such a stance, and decided it was necessary to shield my mother from a campaign of misinformation. She is a diabetic in her 70s, and therefore in that minority at genuine risk of hospitalisation if she contracted Covid. Thankfully she received her initial Pfizer jab a fortnight ago, with the latter to follow another two weeks down the line. In the interim, the landline has been bombarded with calls from the anti-vaccine troupe. I have screened them out with her consent, when the hoopla simmers down and their outrage is spent then she is receptive to a friendly chat. It is my duty as her son to protect her wellbeing by whatever means necessary, and if someone crosses the line with spurious claims about vaccines then I make no apology of keeping them at arms length.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

My mother is a devout Catholic who participates in prayer groups. Within these, there are a smattering of individuals who are steadfastly anti-vaccine. This is on the basis of their belief that vaccines contain foetuses. Now I regard them as dangerous lunatics for holding such a stance, and decided it was necessary to shield my mother from a campaign of misinformation. She is a diabetic in her 70s, and therefore in that minority at genuine risk of hospitalisation if she contracted Covid. Thankfully she received her initial Pfizer jab a fortnight ago, with the latter to follow another two weeks down the line. In the interim, the landline has been bombarded with calls from the anti-vaccine troupe. I have screened them out with her consent, when the hoopla simmers down and their outrage is spent then she is receptive to a friendly chat. It is my duty as her son to protect her wellbeing by whatever means necessary, and if someone crosses the line with spurious claims about vaccines then I make no apology of keeping them at arms length.

Thought that they gave the all clear

https://www.thejournal.ie/bishops-catholics-can-take-covid-19-vaccine-foetal-tissue-5294483-Dec2020/

Believe that the COI did too.

gmisk

Brian? wrote: »

It wasn't rushed

Exactly, tonnes of work had already been done.
Brilliant John Oliver programme on this recently.
https://youtu.be/gPHgRp70H8o

Necro

Troll nuked, as ye were folks!

Neyite

Be right back wrote: »

I knew a lady who had TB when she was young, and it affected her for the rest of her life.

Many of the ones who died from covid particularly in nursing homes could well have been people who survived TB back in the 50s and 60s when Ireland ramped up efforts to tackle it with the TB hospitals, improved treatment and vaccinations against it.

That generation would also have been the ones in nursing homes when Covid hit them. I wonder if there's any weaknesses from TB that made them particularly susceptible to succumbing to Covid. Time will tell on that I suppose.

Sardonicat

Neyite wrote: »

Many of the ones who died from covid particularly in nursing homes could well have been people who survived TB back in the 50s and 60s when Ireland ramped up efforts to tackle it with the TB hospitals, improved treatment and vaccinations against it.

That generation would also have been the ones in nursing homes when Covid hit them. I wonder if there's any weaknesses from TB that made them particularly susceptible to succumbing to Covid. Time will tell on that I suppose.

Back in the day, a common treatment for TB was artificial pneumothorax, essentially, they would deliberately collapse the affected lung for a period to deprive the bacteria of oxygen, and the re-inflate the lung again. This was still widely used here even after steptomycin (anti biotic) was available and being administered. To cut a very long story short, this treatment left the individual with 'weak' lungs and very infection prone for life. My mother had TB in the early 50s and died aged 68 twenty one years ago. Her consultant during her final illness told us she was a rarity at her age as most people who endured that treatment died in their 40s or 50s, so it's doubtful there would be too many, if any, of that cohort around in their late 80s/early 90s in Nursing Homes.

Neyite

Sardonicat wrote: »

Back in the day, a common treatment for TB was artificial pneumothorax, essentially, they would deliberately collapse the affected lung for a period to deprive the bacteria of oxygen, and the re-inflate the lung again. This was still widely used here even after steptomycin (anti biotic) was available and being administered. To cut a very long story short, this treatment left the individual with 'weak' lungs and very infection prone for life. My mother had TB in the early 50s and died aged 68 twenty one years ago. Her consultant during her final illness told us she was a rarity at her age as most people who endured that treatment died in their 40s or 50s, so it's doubtful there would be too many, if any, of that cohort around in their late 80s/early 90s in Nursing Homes.

Sorry about your mother - that sounds brutal! Was that here in Ireland? I know someone of that age who spent months in an Irish TB hospital but they never mentioned that type of treatment. They did live until they were in their early 80s though so possibly unlikely he got that particular procedure.

I was thinking more along the lines of TB causing scarring or weakness in the lungs from the disease rather than any procedures but I was just guessing really.

Sardonicat

Neyite wrote: »

Sorry about your mother - that sounds brutal! Was that here in Ireland? I know someone of that age who spent months in an Irish TB hospital but they never mentioned that type of treatment. They did live until they were in their early 80s though so possibly unlikely he got that particular procedure.

I was thinking more along the lines of TB causing scarring or weakness in the lungs from the disease rather than any procedures but I was just guessing really.

Oh, it could cause scarring, I suppose it would depend how long the infection was present before it was detected and treated. The thing about the artificial pneumothorax is it depended who was treating you I suppose. Same as now really. It did actually have beneficial effects but
it just baffleds me that at least one consultant here continued with the practice after the effectiveness of antibiotic treatment had been proven!

Yes, this was in Ireland, and yes, it was barbaric. A nerve had to be crushed to stop the lung from automatically trying to re-inflate. She had a scar on her collar bone from that. The consultant in her final illness assembled his team to meet her and show them the scar.

I'm glad your older friend made it through. A very traumatic experience even without the awful treatments.

moonage

I think it's anti-science to indiscrimatately label as "anti-vaxx" all who are sceptical about, have concerns about or have negative things to say about vaccination in general or a particular vaccine.

If they don't toe the party line stick the "anti-vaxx" label on them and scientific debate is ended. "Anti-vaxx" doesn't even have a precise definition and this nebulous term doesn't have definite boundaries.

For example, I heard about one doctor who posted on a medical forum for doctors that the Phase III clinical trials for AstraZeneca’s Covid vaccine will not be completed until 2023. This is a fact, yet for pointing this out some of the other doctors labeled him anti-vaxx!

Seth Brundle

moonage wrote: »

For example, I heard about one doctor who posted on a medical forum for doctors that the Phase III clinical trials for AstraZeneca’s Covid vaccine will not be completed until 2023. This is a fact, yet for pointing this out some of the other doctors labeled him anti-vaxx!

Great story bro :rolleyes: