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Anti-vaxxers

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    #5582
    Sardonicat
    Registered Users Posts: 12,379 ✭✭✭✭Sardonicat


    silverharp wrote: »
    you process information your way , Ill do it mine. I had the AZ vaccine yet according to Webster Im antivax because I would have a default opinion that the state shouldnt force people to take a vaccine. My body my choice.
    The State isn't forcing people to take a vaccine, so you're grand out.


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    #5583
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,803 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    silverharp wrote: »
    you process information your way , Ill do it mine. I had the AZ vaccine yet according to Webster Im antivax because I would have a default opinion that the state shouldnt force people to take a vaccine. My body my choice.

    Perhaps if anti-vaxxers weren't so dishonest and disingenuous, Mirriam-Webster wouldn't have had to update their definition.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #5584
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    So nothing then. Grand.

    Anti-vaxxers are perpetrators, not victims who spew disinformation and are unaccountable. Legitimate criticism of such people should be allowed despite modern conservatism's desperation to shut down said criticism with hysterics like the above as well as constantly trying to poison the debate.

    And don't even start me on the canard that vaccines should be voluntary. We've had anti-vaxxer after anti-vaxxer roll up here to trot out varying lines that are as transparent as they are disingenuous. It's there with similar drivel like "genuine concerns", "not against all vaccines" and "What about the people with narcolepsy that I otherwise don't give a flying f*ck about?"

    The feelings of disingenuous people seeking to harm other people's health mean nothing to me. They can and should be criticized. If their nonsense can't stand up to scrutiny, that's their problem.

    Would you honestly be in favour of allowing the government passing a law which resulted in mandatory vaccines?

    Would you honestly be in favour of people being injected against their will?


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    #5585
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Sardonicat wrote: »
    The State isn't forcing people to take a vaccine, so you're grand out.

    Indeed, but it seems a few here would be happy if they did.


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    #5586
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,109 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Perhaps if anti-vaxxers weren't so dishonest and disingenuous, Mirriam-Webster wouldn't have had to update their definition.
    What is so dishonest and disingenuous about SH's position? They've stated they've had the covid vaccine so clearly aren't anti vaccination. They simply believe that the state shouldn't make vaccination compulsory.

    Though I am 100% pro vaccine I have found that both sides can be just as rigidly defensive of their position on the matter.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #5587
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Real Life wrote: »
    Funnily enough this line that anti vaxxers seem to be using a lot now and its mostly the same people that were against repealing the 8th amendment.

    It is very funny.

    Those who lobbied for repealing the 8th are much the same people who now don't care about people's right to choose.


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    #5588
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,803 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Wibbs wrote: »
    What is so dishonest and disingenuous about SH's position? They've stated they've had the covid vaccine so clearly aren't anti vaccination. They simply believe that the state shouldn't make vaccination compulsory.

    Though I am 100% pro vaccine I have found that both sides can be just as rigidly defensive of their position on the matter.

    I think dropping the term "Orwellian" in is highly disingenuous. An American dictionary updated the definition of a term. That's all. It's not a prelude to Big Brother.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #5589
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,849 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Wibbs wrote: »
    I would tend to agree with that. I can see the argument that there are too many morons out there who caould affect the wider population, but I have grave concerns about giving state bodies any more power. Though corporations have as much if not more power over people's everyday lives. If Google insisted that all their employees were vaccinated it would have as much weight as a governmental action.

    True, mitigated to the extent that the market would offer choice in a lot of situations say something like restaurants where there could never be a corporate consensus

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #5590
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,805 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    silverharp wrote: »
    you process information your way , Ill do it mine. I had the AZ vaccine yet according to Webster Im antivax because I would have a default opinion that the state shouldnt force people to take a vaccine. My body my choice.

    How do you feel about the state forcing people to wear masks?

    Because anti-maskers also use that line.


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    #5591
    Real Life
    Registered Users Posts: 943 ✭✭✭Real Life


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It is very funny.

    Those who lobbied for repealing the 8th are much the same people who now don't care about people's right to choose.

    and yet I dont see people out protesting that everyone should have to get vaccinated and shoving pictures of people dying from Covid into other peoples faces


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    #5592
    Chuzzle7
    Site Banned Posts: 52 ✭✭Chuzzle7


    Anti-vaxxers, I know a few and they love all this natural type of lifestyle. Taking man made vitamins to keep them healthy. But the chance of catching the virus seems better than a vaccine with them. Can anyone explain that to me?


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    #5593
    JustAThought
    Registered Users Posts: 5,324 ✭✭✭JustAThought


    changes in menstration cycles now being reported by 20,000 women post covid vaccine.


    https://globalnews.ca/news/7841955/covid-19-vaccine-irregular-menstruation/

    Oddly early MeNOPAUSE for children aged 13 & 14 was one of the horrifying ‘side effects’ (allegedly) for previously healthy Irish girls who took the gardasil HPV vaccine.

    The scientists and professors quoted in this canadian report are well qualified experts and detail some frightening omissions in the trails.


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    #5594
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Real Life wrote: »
    and yet I dont see people out protesting that everyone should have to get vaccinated and shoving pictures of people dying from Covid into other peoples faces

    What's that got to do with the right to choose?

    Either you believe in it or you don't.

    It's hypocritical if you choose to make fun of a lot of the pro-life for changing their stance on "my body, my choice" without acknowledging that a lot of pro-choice proponents have made a similar 180.


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    #5595
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,803 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Deleted User wrote: »
    What's that got to do with the right to choose?

    Either you believe in it or you don't.

    It's hypocritical if you choose to make fun of a lot of the pro-life for changing their stance on "my body, my choice" without acknowledging that a lot of pro-choice proponents have made a similar 180.

    It only is if the anti-choice brigade have changed their minds. What's actually happened is that they've adopted the "my body, my choice" maxim so they can virtue signal about not getting a little jab.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #5596
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    It only is if the anti-choice brigade have changed their minds. What's actually happened is that they've adopted the "my body, my choice" maxim so they can virtue signal about not getting a little jab.

    And do you disagree that they should have a choice of whether or not they get a vaccine or does it only apply to abortions?

    Hypocrisy on both sides as far as i can see.


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    #5597
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,849 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    How do you feel about the state forcing people to wear masks?

    Because anti-maskers also use that line.

    Im not anti mask either, I would assume they have an effect greater than 0 in the short term. Depends on the measures and timeframes, there are certainly examples of going too far with them.
    Its up to the government to feel the mood of the people, im guessing the people will vote with their feet at some point this year and will start to stop wearing them especially when most adults will have been offered a vaccine and shops etc will give up trying to enforce them.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #5598
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,803 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Deleted User wrote: »
    And do you disagree that they should have a choice of whether or not they get a vaccine or does it only apply to abortions?

    Hypocrisy on both sides as far as i can see.

    And there's the both sides line.

    I support bodily autonomy for everyone. If you want an abortion, you should be able to get one. If you don't want the vaccine, don't get one but do me a favour and don't virtue signal about it.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #5599
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    And there's the both sides line.

    I only used it because it is accurate.


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    #5600
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,803 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I only used it because it is accurate.

    Not as far as I can tell.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #5601
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,805 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    silverharp wrote: »
    Im not anti mask either, I would assume they have an effect greater than 0 in the short term. Depends on the measures and timeframes, there are certainly examples of going too far with them.
    Its up to the government to feel the mood of the people, im guessing the people will vote with their feet at some point this year and will start to stop wearing them especially when most adults will have been offered a vaccine and shops etc will give up trying to enforce them.

    How do you feel about people who refuse to wear masks using the "my body my choice" argument, do you think it's valid?

    Do you think people have a right to refuse to wear masks?


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    #5602
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,109 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    silverharp wrote: »
    True, mitigated to the extent that the market would offer choice in a lot of situations say something like restaurants where there could never be a corporate consensus
    The "market" can be just as dodgy as any government. It;s all about the bottom line. If the bottom line is affected by anti vax or non vaccination the same market would be quick to make it virtually compulsory to enforce it.
    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    but do me a favour and don't virtue signal about it.
    To be fair "virtue signalling" is all over the place. The "antivaxers, we believe in vitamins, natural living and Karen on facebook" types and the "anti vaxxers are all idiots, aren't we so correct and smug about it. Science!" types. Whether they turn out to be right or wrong, the zealots of any stripe are almost by definition high in self belief and low in self awareness.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #5603
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,109 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    How do you feel about people who refuse to wear masks using the "my body my choice" argument, do you think it's valid?

    Do you think people have a right to refuse to wear masks?
    100% they do. However the rest of society shouldn't have to be exposed to them because of the potential risk involved.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #5604
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Not as far as I can tell.

    Well as your mate Sartre said "we don't judge the people we love".


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    #5605
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,284 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Wibbs wrote: »
    The "market" can be just as dodgy as any government. It;s all about the bottom line. If the bottom line is affected by anti vax or non vaccination the same market would be quick to make it virtually compulsory to enforce it.

    To be fair "virtue signalling" is all over the place. The "antivaxers, we believe in vitamins, natural living and Karen on facebook" types and the "anti vaxxers are all idiots, aren't we so correct and smug about it. Science!" types. Whether they turn out to be right or wrong, the zealots of any stripe are almost by definition high in self belief and low in self awareness.

    which are more likely to be right, those who follow actual science or those who follow Karen science?


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    #5606
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    And do you disagree that they should have a choice of whether or not they get a vaccine or does it only apply to abortions?

    Hypocrisy on both sides as far as i can see.

    I'm completely fine with a person having the right to refuse a vaccine. However I also think that the likes of creches etc can refuse children who aren't up to date with jabs etc. That you may potentially not be allowed to travel to certain countries due to lack of vaccinations. All of the above can and should happen in many cases, simply as a public health measure.


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    #5607
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,109 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    which are more likely to be right, those who follow actual science or those who follow Karen science?
    Indeed, but my point was it makes neither of them immune to virtue signalling and smugness. Plus science gets it wrong all the time. It gets things wrong or half right, realises this at some point and changes tack and gets things right, or less wrong. It's a feature, nay the killer app of science. It evolves in response to new theories and evidence and questions, though is often a prisoner of culture and the market.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #5608
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,001 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    silverharp wrote: »
    Webster is getting a bit Orwellian with their change in definitions

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anti-vaxxer

    I think you should look up the definition of Orwellian while you're there horse.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #5609
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,803 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Indeed, but my point was it makes neither of them immune to virtue signalling and smugness. Plus science gets it wrong all the time. It gets things wrong or half right, realises this at some point and changes tack and gets things right, or less wrong. It's a feature, nay the killer app of science. It evolves in response to new theories and evidence and questions, though is often a prisoner of culture and the market.

    I don't think the comparison is valid. As you've said, science changes and evolves over time based on facts and evidence.

    People latching onto unaccountable cranks and acting as vectors for their nonsense. At least the science has the data to back it up.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #5610
    TheIrishGrover
    Registered Users Posts: 6,009 ✭✭✭TheIrishGrover


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    And there's the both sides line.

    I support bodily autonomy for everyone. If you want an abortion, you should be able to get one. If you don't want the vaccine, don't get one but do me a favour and don't virtue signal about it.

    Or hang around me or my family


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    #5611
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,805 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Wibbs wrote: »
    100% they do. However the rest of society shouldn't have to be exposed to them because of the potential risk involved.

    So the argument is invalid in that case. An individual isn't entitled to refuse to wear a mask because "my body my choice".

    In fact that whole argument is not black/white, it's a grey area, because when we become potential hosts for infectious diseases we bear certain responsibilities.


This discussion has been closed.
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