Right-wing vs. Left-wing Clashes [MOD NOTE POST #1]

marcus001

oscarBravo wrote: »

Hang on. That video doesn't show the assault. It shows a separate incident, and also shows someone who appears to be the victim of the assault.

If you're trying to claim that the victim of the assault was an instigator, and that the four people with sticks and one person with a gun were acting in self-defence, you're going to have to produce some actual evidence.

It does show the assault at 1:27. Harris is on the ground just to the left of the shot.

I'm not claiming he's the instigator, but he wasn't some random fella minding his own business set upon by a racist mob. At a minimum this video establishes this as fact.

The person is obviously Harris. No one else would have been wearing that exact outfit at that time.

We won't really know what happened until there is a full police investigation as I said before, thankfully there were dozens of police around at the time, making it altogether more likely that this was an act of self-defence, not necessarily defending against Harris but against the group he was moving with. I can't see any violence from Harris in the video, but this really isn't the outrage that it's being made out to be. Looks like a scuffle between two groups and one group won.

Christy42

marcus001 wrote: »

It does show the assault at 1:27. Harris is on the ground just to the left of the shot.

I'm not claiming he's the instigator, but he wasn't some random fella minding his own business set upon by a racist mob. At a minimum this video establishes this as fact.

The person is obviously Harris. No one else would have been wearing that exact outfit at that time.

We won't really know what happened until there is a full police investigation as I said before, thankfully there were dozens of police around at the time, making it altogether more likely that this was an act of self-defence, not necessarily defending against Harris but against the group he was moving with. I can't see any violence from Harris in the video, but this really isn't the outrage that it's being made out to be. Looks like a scuffle between two groups and one group won.

Why would the presence of police make it more likely it was self defense? Surely if police presence would deter one side from assault it would deter both?

Also what is with all the red in the video? Is that just my phone?

Brian?

marcus001 wrote: »

I'm not trying to defend the guy but people misusing words is something that really irks me. There's a big difference between a nationalist and a supremacist. A supremacist wants to rule over other groups, a nationalist doesn't.

I beg to differ. Richard Spencer is a white supremacist who claims to be a "white nationalist". He believes white people are superior to all other races, as do any other "white nationalists" I've come across. They talk about pushing out the inferior races and taking America back for white people. This is the very definition of being a white supremacist.

They can call themselves "white teddy bears" for all I care. It doesn't change who they are and what they stand for. Standing beside actual Nazis kind of gives it away.

For someone who's pedantic, which I'm guilty of myself, why don't you take issue with the term "white nationalist"? There is no white nation.

oscarBravo

marcus001 wrote: »

I'm not claiming he's the instigator...

[...]

I can't see any violence from Harris in the video...

...but he deserved to be beaten by four men with sticks anyway. That's an interesting perspective.

Brian?

Silver Lynel wrote: »

White nationalists.
White supremacist.
Neo Nazi troll.

People who talk about Alpha males.

This is what I mean. How does someone who (wrongly, in my opinion) believes in Alpha males end up bundled in with with Neo-Nazis?

Then how can you say these people shouldn't complain when they are mischaracterized.

A quick google search shows that Richard Spencer claims he invented the term "alt right" and he takes it to mean "white nationalist" as opposed to "white supremacists". It looks like a failed attempt from him to hide the actual white supremacy and racism behind a more legitimate sounding ideology.

So if you are calling someone "alt right" but they are not a white nationalist (or white supremacist in disguise) then you are using the term incorrectly.

How come I am forever seeing people with opinions on movies or video games who have said nothing whatsoever regarding race or white nationalism branded "alt right"?

Why not just call them "White Nationalists"?

Is that because if some dude says "the alpha male gets all the females" you'd look like a total dumbass when your reply is "you are a white nationalist"?

Alt Right is just vague enough and just notorious enough to use to discredit someone without needing to go into too much detail?

As I said, there is no strict definition of th alt right. But it includes the people I've mentioned.

Milo being a primes example. He's alt right. But isn't a white supremacist.

super_furry

Mental how people can honestly try to defence straight up neo-Nazis, particularly after one of their number murdered an innocent women in a terrorist attack.

marcus001

Brian? wrote: »

I beg to differ. Richard Spencer is a white supremacist who claims to be a "white nationalist". He believes white people are superior to all other races, as do any other "white nationalists" I've come across. They talk about pushing out the inferior races and taking America back for white people. This is the very definition of being a white supremacist.

They can call themselves "white teddy bears" for all I care. It doesn't change who they are and what they stand for. Standing beside actual Nazis kind of gives it away.

For someone who's pedantic, which I'm guilty of myself, why don't you take issue with the term "white nationalist"? There is no white nation.

Can you link to where he said these things?

I take issue with the concept of white nationalism because as you say, white's are not a coherent nation, but as a term I don't have a problem with it. It's an ideal I don't aspire to.

marcus001

oscarBravo wrote: »

...but he deserved to be beaten by four men with sticks anyway. That's an interesting perspective.

It's amazing how a mod can edit someone's post in quotes and then put words like that in my mouth. My post wasn't that long to justify cutting out most of what I actually said so you could misrepresent what I said.

I never said anyone deserved to get a beating.

marcus001

Christy42 wrote: »

Why would the presence of police make it more likely it was self defense? Surely if police presence would deter one side from assault it would deter both?

Also what is with all the red in the video? Is that just my phone?

I think people would be less likely to commit and unprovoked assault right in front of the cops than when there are no cops. Don't you?

I think scuffles can break out where both sides can plausibly argue the other side started it. Anyone who's been in a scrap on the street even on a night out knows it's not always black and white. Sometimes fights are mutual. Sometimes people can get dragged into someone else's fight just by being in their group.

Brian?

marcus001 wrote: »

Can you link to where he said these things?

I could. But I'm not in the business of googling for you. Google his "hail Trump" speech.

It contains a quality rant about "we are the pioneers, we are the nation builders" and so on. Absolutely historically blind.

I take issue with the concept of white nationalism because as you say, white's are not a coherent nation, but as a term I don't have a problem with it. It's an ideal I don't aspire to.

Why don't you have a problem with it, but you have a problem with my post? Interesting.

The term "white nationalist" is a complete nonsense.

.

Tony EH

Manic Moran wrote: »

We have had a problem with one of our products, a WW2-era naval wargame. Due to protest from Korean players, the powers-that-are decided to remove the historically correct sunburst flag from the backs of IJN ships, and replace it with the current Japanese national flag.

The stupidity of it is that the sunburst flag is still the official flag of the JMSDF, and the Korean Navy seems to have figured out how to work in friendship with it.

http://i.imgur.com/leNqG7F.jpg

Worse, the flag flown by the IJA in Korea during the occupation is actually a bit different to the flag flown by the IJN or the current JMSDF. (The sun is centered on one, offset on the other)

This is just so dumb.

marcus001

Brian? wrote: »

I could. But I'm not in the business of googling for you. Google his "hail Trump" speech.

It contains a quality rant about "we are the pioneers, we are the nation builders" and so on. Absolutely historically blind.



Why don't you have a problem with it, but you have a problem with my post? Interesting.

The term "white nationalist" is a complete nonsense.

.

No, no, this is Politics so if you want to quote someone you have to provide sources when asked.

Manic Moran

wes wrote: »

Looks like the Republican party and the Cops want to make terrorism legal for Nazi's:

BACKED BY POLICE UNIONS, LEGISLATORS STAND BY LAWS TO PROTECT DRIVERS WHO KILL PROTESTERS

This is so blatant it isn't even funny at this point.

At this point, the US police are as bad as any gang if you ask me.

You did actually read the article, right? And the text of the laws? It even quotes one law, as saying that the driver must be executing 'due care and attention.'

After all, if you're going around minding your own business and someone else deliberately puts themselves in harm's way (I don't know about you, but I was always told to avoid traffic when entering a street) to the level that an accident happens (yes, accident, not a deliberate ramming: As the article stated, deliberate rammings are not 'authorised') then immunity from suit is not unreasonable. Remember in the US, anyone can sue for anything, and costs are not usually paid by the loser.

marcus001

Brian? wrote: »

Why don't you have a problem with it, but you have a problem with my post? Interesting.

The term "white nationalist" is a complete nonsense.

.

Why would I have a problem with it?

Are you saying white nationalism doesn't exist?

Are you also saying that Pan-Arab nationalism doesn't exist for the same reason?

Are you saying that because I have a problem with you using words incorrectly I should also have a problem with this other related word as well?

PopePalpatine

super_furry wrote: »

Mental how people can honestly try to defence straight up neo-Nazis, particularly after one of their number murdered an innocent women in a terrorist attack.

And now dozens of their number are heading to Heather Hayer's funeral, WBC-style.

Brian?

marcus001 wrote: »

Why would I have a problem with it?

Are you saying white nationalism doesn't exist?

Are you also saying that Pan-Arab nationalism doesn't exist for the same reason?

Are you saying that because I have a problem with you using words incorrectly I should also have a problem with this other related word as well?

It's ok. I'll leave it. You'll pendantry is ideologicall biased. I do that myself.

wes

Manic Moran wrote: »

You did actually read the article, right? And the text of the laws? It even quotes one law, as saying that the driver must be executing 'due care and attention.'

After all, if you're going around minding your own business and someone else deliberately puts themselves in harm's way (I don't know about you, but I was always told to avoid traffic when entering a street) to the level that an accident happens (yes, accident, not a deliberate ramming: As the article stated, deliberate rammings are not 'authorised') then immunity from suit is not unreasonable. Remember in the US, anyone can sue for anything, and costs are not usually paid by the loser.

Yeah, and let be honest we know exactly how the law is going to be used, and who the victims are going to be. We have seen enough about how things work over there at this point.

A Little Pony

I was listening to Dr Umar Johnson say most of the protesters are white and not black and thinks white people/LGBT agenda should stop trying to hijack the black cause.

super_furry

PopePalpatine wrote: »

And now dozens of their number are heading to Heather Hayer's funeral, WBC-style.

I wish I could say I'm surprised but these are Nazi's we're dealing with. Would love to hear how their cheerleaders here can defend this one.

marcus001

wes wrote: »

Yeah, and let be honest we know exactly how the law is going to be used, and who the victims are going to be. We have seen enough about how things work over there at this point.

Can you fill us in on the conspiracy?

Brian?

marcus001 wrote: »

No, no, this is Politics so if you want to quote someone you have to provide sources when asked.

You know, that's fair enough.

https://youtu.be/1o6-bi3jlxk

Stay sharp for the anti Semitic dog whistles, before the proper racism begins. Referring to the media as the "lugenpresse" and Gholums.

marcus001

Brian? wrote: »

It's ok. I'll leave it. You'll pendantry is ideologicall biased. I do that myself.

I'm still waiting on those sources. You have to do better than "Google it"

Brian?

marcus001 wrote: »

I'm still waiting on those sources. You have to do better than "Google it"

Jaysus. You've no patience. I just posted it.

oscarBravo

marcus001 wrote: »

It's amazing how a mod can edit someone's post in quotes and then put words like that in my mouth. My post wasn't that long to justify cutting out most of what I actually said so you could misrepresent what I said.

I never said anyone deserved to get a beating.

Oh, spare me the righteous indignation. The entire point of posting the video was to argue that Harris wasn't an innocent victim - an argument that fails the rather basic test of not even showing him doing anything wrong.

marcus001

Brian? wrote: »

He believes white people are superior to all other races

They talk about pushing out the inferior races and taking America back for white people.

I'm still waiting for you to back up these claims. That video you linked is just him talking ****e about the media.

marcus001

oscarBravo wrote: »

Oh, spare me the righteous indignation. The entire point of posting the video was to argue that Harris wasn't an innocent victim - an argument that fails the rather basic test of not even showing him doing anything wrong.

No the entire point of posting the video was to add more evidence to the discussion.

Christy42

marcus001 wrote: »

I'm still waiting on those sources. You have to do better than "Google it"

I reckon you were typing this as the post was made. So you don't miss it Brian's posy is right above yours (so this post is unintentionally comical).

As for the self defense thing. Self defense makes it sound like they were attacked. Not that a scuffle broke out which is very different.

vetinari

What is with all the bot like posters in this thread?
Boards.ie is an irish website presumably frequented by irish people or people who are living / have lived in Ireland.
Your average person on the street might have heard about the terrorist attack in Charlottesville Virginia. They certainly have never heard of some fringe group called Antifa. I've never seen the word mentioned on any major news network over here in Boston. I doubt RTE has mentioned it. Yet there's multiple posters in this thread raging about them?!

marcus001

vetinari wrote: »

What is with all the bot like posters in this thread?
Boards.ie is an irish website presumably frequented by irish people or people who are living / have lived in Ireland.
Your average person on the street might have heard about the terrorist attack in Charlottesville Virginia. They certainly have never heard of some fringe group called Antifa. I've never seen the word mentioned on any major news network over here in Boston. I doubt RTE has mentioned it. Yet there's multiple posters in this thread raging about them?!

What is your point exactly? have you never heard of antifa before? :pac:

For Reals

Silver Lynel wrote: »

How much leeway should we give Antifa?

No more or less than you or I.

Silver Lynel wrote: »

They say that they are against hate and racism but what about their actions?

Do they have ideology or rhetoric of their own?

Is violence a valid method for achieving their goal?

Could they do more harm than good? Escalating violent clashes until people are dying in the streets?

Where and when do we stop?

As handy as it is citing two wrongs, as someone who is not a member of the Nazi party or anti-fa, I can only repeat my above sentiment.

Silver Lynel wrote: »

If one group believes whites are superior and the other group believes whites are inferior then is there really any hope of a peaceful conclusion for America?

Both racist groups would be racist. Do you believe the protesters from all walks were protesting against the inferior whites or the hateful deluded whites?

Silver Lynel wrote: »

I think the authorities need to step in because ultimately it's going to be regular people, who aren't Nazis and aren't Antifa, who feel the brunt of this.

If the Fascists abuse you and beat you up for being the wrong colour and Antifa smash up your business and set fire to your car then who can you turn to?

I wouldn't turn to either group. Not sure what point your trying to make here. Ones as bad as the other?

Silver Lynel wrote: »

Over a year ago people said "this violence will escalate and someone will die". It could have been a stray rock or bottle or a deadly strike from a bike lock or baseball bat that caused the first fatality.

It could have easily been either side that was first to kill someone.

Now that it has happened we should just condemn them all and ban them from holding any more rallies. At least until they can front the cash to pay for security to make sure that people are not dying at a protest over a damn statue.

I have no problem condemning the far right groups involved here and no problem condemning the far left groups either. They are both a disgrace and someone is dead because of their bullsh!t.

Don't just give Antifa a free pass because they call themselves "anti-Fascists".

Condemning the alt right KKK white supremacists is condemning the alt right KKK white supremacists. Not automatically giving a free pass to anyone, although 'whatabout' is a handy distraction.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23X14HS4gLk