Home heating automation

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123804101#Comment_123804101

the way you have it wired won’t do anythjng to the boiler. You basically have connected a wire that is not connected to anything

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123804101#Comment_123804101

At the very least get a phase tester screwdriver, you can use that to check that theres no live on any wires before you touch them. It's not easy to check the terminals when the controller is in place, it covers them. Jumping live from the brown wire into 1 or 3 should turn the heating for either zone respectively. As its a zoned system with Zone valves, theres no direct connection to the boiler. Either of those black or grey wires opens a motorised valve for their zone, and the valves have relay contacts which close when either valve is opened, sending 220 volt live to boiler to cause it to fire up.

deezell

@ted1, he hasn't done that wiring in the photo, that's the wiring of the original timer backplate, which is mechanically identical to the backplate of the Wiser kit3, but uses different terminals because its wiring is configured as British Gas standard two channel controller, but Drayton use a different wiring plan in order to use the same baseplate for a three channel timer. That's why he needs to move the black wire from 4 to 1, then both wires will be connected to the Wiser's two CH terminals, 1 and 3, with HW on 2 unused.

damianmcr

I really appreciate all the help. I'll report back in the morning.

It's an absolute curse getting the screws into the bottom of the programmer as well.

damianmcr

Haven't done anything yet. Had Phoenix Gas out today to change the meter which was preplanned. They've said I've a leak. I got my new boiler on last Friday and could have sworn I smelled gas. I asked my wife, nothing. Asked nextdoor in and he didn't smell anything. Not happy I didn't trust myself and put it down to being paranoid. I'm going to buy a gas alarm I think now.

Illusory

Curious… Have whole home HVAC units, which provides both heat and A/C, become a growing thing in Ireland? Just had mine replaced in the US. Went from a 2 seer unit that required Freon coolant (which is no longer allowed to be purchased in the US) to a 14 seer unit for efficiency and because my Freon was empty.

damianmcr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123804368#Comment_123804368

Just to report it worked. Thanks very much for your help.

I've got some wago connectors and will remove the thermostats next week.

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123809934#Comment_123809934

Domestic home AC not a thing here at all, though with the higher and more prolonged summer temperatures as a result of global warming, there might be a market, if not for whole home systems, at least individual room through wall heating/cooling units. Ive seen these in Australia, and Ive seen these offered for sale here, they might be tempting if you've got some free summer solar power to assist in their operation, as day rate electricity here is pretty expensive.

Heat pumps installed here are almost exclusively for heating. Most units are capable of cooling, but i don't know if this happen very often, as the air to water heatpumps can cost €16,000 to install to your existing water filled radiator heating system. Cooling be another days work. And hardware cost. Their efficiency is measured in COP, not the US SEER or SEER2. COP, coefficient of performance, is a measure of the ratio of power input to heat output. The fanboys of heatpumps are ever present on the media claiming COP of 5, realistically 3 is the norm, and if the heatpump is under powered, in cold weather the COP will fall to 2 or less as owners futilely crank up the thermostat. (A mad woman was given prime time on the evening news the other night to scold householders for not installing heatpumps, "and solar panels to power them". 6 panels on the average semi might produce a kw out in winter daylight for an hour or two, and nothing after 4 pm, ideal for powering a 9kw heatpump. Not.

There you have it. A kind of Garron Noone guide to Irish heating for yanks, without the C and F words.

Illusory

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123810594#Comment_123810594

Thanks. LOL… Sort of reminds me of the book I'm currently reading "The Story We Carry in Our Bones - Irish History for Americans" by Juilene Osborne-McKnight.

Roberto_gas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123810594#Comment_123810594

Needing ACs will be irony...build heat retaining houses A1 rated and they fume in summers requiring an AC !

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123811907#Comment_123811907

Insulation works both ways, heat retaining glazing will reflect heat away, and well insulated walls likewise. If you had to run A/C, its just like heating, insulation will reduce the energy needed to keep a lower temperature indoors than outdoors. Solar panels in summer will go a long way towards powering some modest A/C units like the portable ones lidl and aldi were selling.

Try working in an uninsulated shed, or stay in a thin walled caravan in high summer. You'll bake alive. Forgetting to turn off the AC will be the new forgetting to turn off the immersion. I've actually seen that dramatised in some Australian tv series, where a row breaks out in a struggling family when dad come in and finds the AC on full. He goes ballistic over the cost. My attic was over 40° during the heatwave, like a greenhouse, but the 7 or 8 inches of ceiling insulation kept it from blasting the rooms underneath. It is ironic though, who would have believed the predictions of such a temperature swing, but it's happening.

Heiser

I have a Drayton wiser and am very happy with it. Is it possible to set it up so that the water in my water cylinder is heated when the boiler is fired up? I know I can set hot water heating to a schedule, but would it not be more efficent to have it heating the water at the same time it's heating the radiators, rather than the boiler firing up at seperate times?

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123814560#Comment_123814560

If you have zoned valves for HW and CH, the idea is that you can schedule HW at times when there is no demand for CH, such as the summer. If you want the boiler to circulate the hot flow to the HW every time the CH operates, you can latch open the HW zone valve so it's always open to hot flow. It will consume its portion of heat from the hot flow, but may also cool down as the initial flow temperature when all the radiators give up their cold water will probably be less than the boiler set flow temperature. HW only schedule will still operate normally.

None of this is likely to increase or decrease efficiency. HW only heating will generally 'cycle' the boiler (it will reach its max quickly as the cylinder load only is low, and cut off the burner). The circulation pump will continue to pump the hot flow from the boiler jacket until the cylinder absorbs sufficient to cool it, and then the boiler will fire briefly again, until the HW timed schedule ends, or the cylinder thermostat opens which will close the HW zone valve and cut off the boiler.

A far simpler solution to your request is to set some of the HW scheduled slots to coincide with scheduled CH requests, such as perhaps a schedule which turns on upstairs heating at a particular time. I wouldn't expect any great savings, other than marginal reductions due to limiting the less efficient condensing that occurs when the boiler flow is above the condensing threshold. A gas boiler with a return flow temperature sensor may well be able to negate this partially, but HW temperatures in the cylinder are generally preferred at greater than radiator flow temperatures, so the boiler output temperature needs to reasonably exceed the mid cylinder temperature for heat exchange to occur in the cylinder coil. You can play around with both suggestions, until either you notice no saving, or herself serves you dinner at the same new tepid temperature of the shower HW. Remember,with smart thermostats, you're ALWAYS under suspicion of heat misering.

Roberto_gas

I need to get rid of my old alarm panel at the entrance and replace it with some smart display - Have Eufy/Tado/Alexa

Plan is to get more smart lights in future. Whats the best budget option for a display like that ? If a tablet which one ?

WildCardDoW

It really depends on how you "run" your house.

Any tablet will do, second hand better as you're not concerned with battery life I guess.

But you can buy proper screens like this from Aqara.

https://amzn.eu/d/0Tk7R5C

Theres also versions of this on AliExpress from other brands.

I'd research reviews on each.

Fishy1

This was posted in the Bargain Alerts section, but I thought it might be of interest to anyone with a Drayton Wiser setup. It’s a Drayton Wiser Smart TRV, €34.99. Apparently they’re currently £50 on Amazon.

https://grange.ie/product-detail/wiser-radiator-thermostat

Sir_luksik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123804025#Comment_123804025

Hi @deezell I have a very simialr question and based on the whole thread it look like you're an expert here in this field.

We have a house with heat pump (constanly on for hot water with the radiators turning on when we increase the temp on the stats) There are 2 zones (I think) as we have stats downstairs and upstairs. I have EPH R17 controller which I want to change to Wiser Kit 3 that I recently purchased. The current wiring looks like this:

Current.jpeg

Can you advise which wiser diagram should i follow for instalation? I thoughht it would be 2 channel but on the manual it looks like 1 channel? I'm a bit confused here.

Wiser diagram.JPG

Do I have to change any wires? My understanding after following 1 channel set up would be that I need swap grey wire from 4 (current) to 3. Current backplate is exactly the same as Wiser's so I was hoping for easy switch.

I would appreciate any advice here

RogerThis

For the Drayton Wiser Smart TRV, do you need one on each radiator, or would you get away with on in each zone? i.e. upstairs and downstairs?

Sir_luksik

For the moment I'm happy to keep the current setting just upstairs and downstairs.

However, in the future I'd like to expand the set to each radiator and create extra zones.

RogerThis

Does that stop running the heat to the different zones, if the one TRV detects the set temperature?

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123859132#Comment_123859132

Short answer, you can't drop the three zone Wiser onto this back plate currently wired for a single timer Zone controller, which the EPH R17 is. You will need to wire the new controller baseplate to the zone valves directly. If the EPH is in the same general area as Zone Valves, you can use that existing ready wired plate to mount the Wiser controller, but only using the live L and neutral N wires in, discarding the link between L.and 1, and also discarding the wire from terminal 4 which most likely goes to the old wall stats . Terminals 1 and 3 will need linking with new wire to the Zone Valves' motor actuator's brown wires, one for each valve, which are probably in a wiring centre box beside the zone valves. A few pics of these, and the opened wiring centre would help.

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123859308#Comment_123859308

You can have as little as one TRV in a Zone, this will just allow you to have this radiator off when the zone is called for heat. When the TRV requests heat for the radiator it's mounted on, all other open radiators in that zone will heat. It's still useful, you might turn off the living room with a TRV when the rest of the downstairs heats in the morning, or you might put TRV's on spare bedrooms or home office rooms to remove then from the loop when they're not needed, saving on heating costs

Sir_luksik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123860133#Comment_123860133

Thanks @deezell for looking into this for me.

That is the reason I'm confused as I found on the internet that the EPH R17 is one zone only but we do have 2 zones in the house.

There is only one box beside the EPH controller and it has a lot of wires in it as per photos. There is also some description on the back of the top but it's unclear to me.

box.jpeg

box side.jpeg

descr.jpeg

I would appreciate any instruction on how to get the Wiser Kit working.

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123861261#Comment_123861261

This is not for the faint hearted! I see both a Tank and Buffer written in the descriptions of the box cable entries on the left. I'm assuming Tank is a hot water cylinder? I assumed your HW might be direct, heated on demand, but equally it could be heated to a tank from the heatpump using the HPs own HW controls and logic. Buffer generally refers to another tank which is heated to store hot flow water for later distribution through the radiators, to supplement the generally tepid on demand response of heatpumps compared to gas or oil boilers. Can you check that the cables on the right exits go to the two CH zone valves? One is labeled D/S, which surely means downstairs.

These are the only ones you need to be concerned with. The key is finding their motor actuator wires (brown) that comes in from inside the big black cables into that wiring centre. These brown wires need to be connected to terminals 1 and 3 of the Wiser baseplate (install the new one or reuse the EPH one as described last post). I see both grey and orange wires in that spaghetti junction, so its clear that the zone valve relays are being used to call for heat , individually or together for each zone. The zone valves' brown actuator's wires are connected to the existing wall stats, which in turn are most likely supplied with switched live voltage from the existing EPH going out on terminal 4, to both stats, then back on two wires to each zone valve actuator motor brown wire. This path can be discarded, replaced with 2 wires directly from terminals 1 and 3 to the actuator motor browns. If this is too challenging, you should seek the services of a sparky who is familiar with these S-plan zone valve wiring box nightmares. (Though this one is as neat as you can get for a load of crosslinks back and forth on terminal strips.

The labeling and numbering in the last image is perhaps some attempt at alerting the initiated as to some of the crucial connections, but it falls far short of a comprehensive diagram, so only the experienced will be able to weed out the brown actuator wires I describe. Also, I'm assuming that the timer has no function in either the HW tank supply and control, or in the maintenance of the Buffer supply. These are another days work to decipher. Edit: It would seem though that the heatpump alternates between heating the (HW) Tank and heating the Buffer, as the last two entries refer to the opposite poles of a switch or relay, the N/O, normally open and the N/C, normally closed, which infers flow is directed to either one or the other. This may be a relay in some other location, perhaps in the HP control itself.

Sir_luksik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123861824#Comment_123861824

Hey, thanks for looking into this again.

I'm assuming Tank is a hot water cylinder?

I guess so :)

I assumed your HW might be direct, heated on demand, but equally it could be heated to a tank from the heatpump using the HPs own HW controls and logic

Correct, the HP is constantly on for the hot water on demand but can also be set as usual boiler with scgeduled heating times.

Can you check that the cables on the right exits go to the two CH zone valves? One is labeled D/S, which surely means downstairs.

That's correct, both sets of cables on the right go to the valves for radiators.

second set.jpeg

rads cables.jpeg

These brown wires need to be connected to terminals 1 and 3 of the Wiser baseplate (install the new one or reuse the EPH one as described last post). I see both grey and orange wires in that spaghetti junction, so its clear that the zone valve relays are being used to call for heat , individually or together for each zone. The zone valves' brown actuator's wires are connected to the existing wall stats, which in turn are most likely supplied with switched live voltage from the existing EPH going out on terminal 4, to both stats, then back on two wires to each zone valve actuator motor brown wire. This path can be discarded, replaced with 2 wires directly from terminals 1 and 3 to the actuator motor browns.

Thanks for this, I'll give it a go and will hope for the best :)

Jellybean73

Hi all,
I posted in July here about removing Climote and possibly swapping to smart controls. Was looking at Drayton Wiser v Tado x.
Current system is 3 channel - 2 ch and 1hw. Upstairs, downstairs and hot water cylinder with tank in attic. Boiler is Worcester Bosch 8000 Life 30 kW regular system boiler. Looking into Drayton Wiser and Tado, I believe they use Opentherm. But my boiler uses EMS.

Had great advice from Deezel, but I forgot to add the type of boiler in my previous post. So I’m not sure if it is possible for my boiler to connect to these smart controls from Tado X or Drayton Wiser. Just wondering if anyone has suggestions or a workaround regarding this issue?

Or if anyone has used a similar boiler smart controls set up with Worcester Bosch?

Climote is not working remotely and the panel is being used as a direct control to the boiler. Either way I need a remote access option to turn the boiler on for heating during the winter. Any ideas would be grateful. 🙏

Jellybean73

This is the model

Bosch Greenstar Life Gr8300iw 30 S Ng

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123864090#Comment_123864090

Bosch themselves make an EMS2 to OT converter, but you still have the issue of trying to use digital control of the boiler, a very single CH and direct HW boiler oriented technology, to control three seperate flow zones at the same time, two CH and flow to a HW cylinder. i explained at length (as I tend to do), how Tado can pretty much replicate modulation in basic on/off system boiler control, while delivering to multi zone S-Plan configurations. Drayton likely will achieve similar using its own PIR algorithms, and its dead easy to install too.

There's no easy way to have two OT thermostats address a single OT boiler input, while at the same time switching flow between three destinations. Tado OT can interact for one CH zone, and can influence the boiler temperature setting when the boiler has a direct HW circuit. (note the Tado receiver, aka the extension kit, is either CH relay only with OT terminals, or CH and HW relays with no OT terminals.That tells its own story. If you go single stat with OT, You can probably then add TRVs to create zones and the single thermostat will control the boiler flow. though I'm uncertain how it will deal with multiple thermostat readings in terms of modulation of firing.

If you want to fry your head, read this paper from Bosch where it details how to implement multi zone over EMS, using all proprietary Bosch hardware. No doubt there's someone out there who has done this. I'd be inclined to run away fast.

TB_0165_a_-_Multizone_Configurations_via_EMS_modules.pdf

RogerThis

I just ordered nine of the Drayton Wiser TRVs from grange.ie, arriving tomorrow. I had the plumber arranged for Friday to install the Drayton Wiser Kit 3, but now it's out of stock in Screwfix (€207). The kit 3 was also out of stock in grange.ie (€179) too. Ah, f*ck it. amazon.co.uk has it for £252 (€289), but it's too dear and won't be here for Friday.

deezell

They're expensive from the UK, probably because they're imported from Schneider in the EU, then if they're exported to here, they're subject to 10% duty as well as exchange and our VAT because they're not of UK manufacture. Brexit, eh?