Home heating automation

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123604354#Comment_123604354

Drayton wiser Kit3. It has two wireless wall stats, one controller which connects wirelessly to these, is wired to the zone valves for HW, CH1 and CH2, replacing your climote box, and the same controller connects to your WiFi to give you internet app control of all three zones. (the wireless stat connections are not over wifi,). Note that the smart stats (of which climote is not one), can all program multiple time slots per zone, with variable temperatures on the CH zones. Climote temperature is fixed at whatever happens to be set on the wall controller. Drayton can add individual smart radiator zones later. It has all the connections to Google, Alexa ect.

Jellybean73

Thanks Deezell. Have you any experience regarding the Wiser app? Can you boost heating, water on the app? Can you use the controller manually and set up scheduling without the app, if the wifi goes down? Do you know how much it costs to use the app?

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123604354#Comment_123604354

would you consider NEST?

deezell

I use Tado, but, without reading the manual, afaik, next three questions are Yes, No, Free. If the wifi goes down some smart stats can still be seen by smart device, echo, alexa, smart things if they use the same wireless protocol, Zigbee 3.0.

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123604725#Comment_123604725

Nest are being made obsolete in Europe. Read back a bit here.

Paulzx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123604483#Comment_123604483

You can boost heating and water seperatley on the app.

The heating and hot water can be turned on manually from the hub if the app/wifi is down but you can't adjust schedules without the app. Hot water comes on for 1 hour manually. Heating comes on for 2 hours manually.

App is free including updates.

I have the system about 3/4 years now. Started off with 2 Room stats to check it out but have moved to smart TRVs on all rads. Have had no trouble with it

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123604802#Comment_123604802

Gen 3 are still Been supported.

deezell

V3 Is ancient and discontinued, Selling until supplies run out. Nest V4 is US only. Nest was never a solution for multiple CH zones, you had to buy two full kits to get an extra stat. Very expensive solution. Nest e had no support for HW timing. When hardware is no longer available, how long do you think they'll be around? No European sales means no revenue to support... support. Brands disappear all the time, so it's up to people to decide on the wisdom of buying something when the maker is moving out of the market.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123605876#Comment_123605876

I was thinking you could pick up 2 second have NESTs for less than €100 each.

I’ve one up in adverts with no interest so will probably give it to a friend or family member for free

deezell

Drayton wiser Kit3 here for a bargain price. €179

https://grange.ie/product-detail/wiser-thermostat-kit-3

deezell

It's interesting how a top brand like Nest suddenly falls over the cliff of its life cycle. Lack of innovation, promotion, and now support has rendered it obsolete. Even a few years ago you could get top dollar for a used Nest kit, asking prices were as high as €200.

Jellybean73

Paulzx …The Climote has 15 mins boost, which is quite handy, was just wondering whether Drayton Wiser or Tado has that?

Jellybean73

Deezell…Do you like the Tado as a system?

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123609242#Comment_123609242

Yes, one of the best, and TadoX is next generation with the 'Thread' mesh network, and data carried using the 'Matter' language or protocol. A big plus for smart device integration. The X version of it's radiator TRVs are very smart looking and well as 'Smart'. They use a clip on USB chargeable lithium battery, so no outlay on dry batteries, if that mattered to you. (Annual outlay per V3. TRV about 2 alkaline AAs, 66cent.) A minor achilles heel of Tado was the single wireless stat connection to the wireless receiver in a given 'Home' installation on the app. In 3 zone legacy installations with two CH zones but no wall stats you would normally be looking for 2 wireless stats to the new smart controller Tado have both wired and wireless stats, so it's a doddle if your 3 zone has old upstairs and downstairs wired stats, you can upgrade to Tado with two wired for 2 CH zones, or one wired and one wireless to the receiver, which also has the relay for zone 3, HW. I'd generally recommend Hive or Wiser where an existing 3 zone is timed only by a 3 zone controller, as running wires to one of the zones can be a drag. With Climote, Tado can work, as the climote controller is generally located in a suitable place for a Tado wired stat for that zone, with tado receiver co located to connect the upstairs wireless Tado and also the wire HW zone valve.

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123609240#Comment_123609240

You can boost Tado from the app, from the thermostat, and from the wireless thermostat receiver for the receivers CH and HW zones. Boost time can be set on the app after the boost is applied. Default boost time is set in the app for boost from the devices. You can configure boost to end either after the default or set time, when the next scheduled event occurs, or when you manually cancel the boost. The rooms page of the app also has an all zones boost button, which hikes all rooms to 25° for the default time. Pressing this button again manually cancels all boost.

Jellybean73

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123610140#Comment_123610140

Really appreciate all of this info. I really like the idea of Tado. Current set up is climote, 3 channel, with two wireless thermostats. Original wired thermostat was disconnected. Definitely food for thought. Need to do pro and cons list of Tado v Wiser.

Jellybean73

Thanks for the info Paulzx. Defo need to look at Wiser and compare with Tado and then see what will work for us.

Jellybean73

Thanks all for their advice.

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123610255#Comment_123610255

I'm working on the basis that the clmote controller used its internal thermostat for the general zone in which the actual climote controller is located. If this zone is now being supplied with temperature information from a wireless sensor located more optimally for the zone, then it's safe to surmise that the actual location of the climote is not a suitable location for measurement of either of the zones it controls. That means you need two wireless thermostat feeding back to a receiver for both CH zones.

I'm guessing the climote was installed in place of a zone timer, with no wired thermostats. These timed only systems were often installed next to the boiler, or next to the zone valves in a hot press or utility room. Unless there are a pair of wires running from a previously installed mechanical thermostat, maybe in the hall or living room, you will need wireless stats to the controller,where all three wired zone relay cables converge. That or instigate the path to the existing controller location from the preferred location of the two CH zone wall thermostats. Sometimes it's easy, if the controller was in an upstairs hot press, the wired stat for upstairs can be relatively easily hooked up from the landing wall outside, leaving the wireless stat for the preferred downstairs location.

I'd hoped the Tado X would have brought in the option of per wireless stat receivers, maybe it will, as there are often systems with more than 2 CH zones, with no prewired path. For these Hive and Drayton wiser can be stacked to enable multiple wireless zone stats. For Tado, the design strategy appears to be to use grouped TRV's to achieve additional zones, with the temperature sensor of one, or a wall wireless sensor, acting as the source of temperature measurement. It's also possible to use a tado wired thermostat as just a receiver, wired into the appropriate controller zone cable, but this will require a wireless thermostat to act as the measurement device. Configuring these to operate in this manner is tricky, Tado support can do it remotely, or it can be done by entering the wall stats Configuration path by a long series of button presses. It's doable, but a pith, as I found out when adding a sensor stat to exclusively open only one TRV, and also fire the boiler by operating the main wired stat. Changing your system to the Drayton is a far simpler prospect.

Check for that redundant wired stat you mentioned, it's wire pair may still in the wall, where the current wireless sensor is, joined and forming a loop back to one of the climote CH zone live inputs. Sorry for all this long winded tech detail, it could save you headaches in the long run.

Paulzx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123609240#Comment_123609240

In the app you can hit the general "boost" button which turns all zones on for 1 hour or a 2 degree rise (whichever happens first) Each zone will operate off its own temp at the time of boost.

You can also go individually into each zone or TRV and boost that zone for whatever you select on intervals of 30mins, 1 hour, 2 hours, 3 hours. You can also adjust what temp you want for each zone.

When the heating is working off your schedule you can increase and lower the temp required in each zone on the app without effecting the schedule going forward. Sometimes the boss just wants it a bit warmer at a particular moment and its easy to do it without effecting the scheduling.

You can also turn the heating on individually in a room by turning the rad TRV which turns it on for an hour or 2 degrees higher in that room.

TheSunIsShining

Hi,

Finally got around to getting all the radiators converted to having TRV valves - although the towel rails are still dumb valves. I have Tado system and I think I got a very informed reply from yourself Deezel, on what to do next? Set-up is that I have a 4 zone system - 3 CH zones and 1 water. So I think I need to switch all the valves to be permanently locked open? Do I have each of the TRVs then linked back to the thermostat on each of the three floors and have them call for heat via that thermostat? What about the towel rails - like if the main bathroom is cold and there is no TRV or stat in there could it end up being colder than the other rooms?

In short, very interested to hear what my best set-up should be/experience of others. Thanks as always!

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123619482#Comment_123619482

In an all TRV plan, zone valve are not required except for HW. The main thermostat can be considered to be the boiler relay for each and all TRVs. If all the CH zone valves are either operated by the main stat SL, or are just clipped open manually, the TRVs become the zone valves. Any radiator with a passive TRV or just standard valves such as the bathroom rail will always receive heat flow when any TRV activates the system. The main stat can be left as the temperature measuring device for the TRV(s) in its room or location, to give more accurate control. It will still act as a relay only, the control device, for other TRVs. You may find it convenient to group TRVs into a single room to reduce the number of schedules.

One side effect of multiple TRVs is the circulation pump flow and pressure may be too high or too low if either only one, or all TRVs are open. You can adjust the speed of this if pump noise is an issue, or pressure is insufficient. A pump with an automatic flow pressure adjustment will keep a constant back pressure on the circuit as TRVs come in and out.

TheSunIsShining

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123619650#Comment_123619650

Thanks Deezel. Like I said, I was planning to not put TRVs on the towel rails in the 2 ensuites and the main bathroom. Seems to be differing opinions on this online - you have any opinion yourself? One thing though about locking the 3 CH valves open - doesn't that mean the towel rails would then all take heat anytime the boiler has been called for HW?

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123620036#Comment_123620036

Well you were worried about it being cold, now you're worried about it being hot. If you put a mechanical TRV on it this will limit its temperature during a call for heat by its own current zone or the house in general if all zone valves are now held open. If rooms are cold enough to be calling for heat, then it's likely the bathrooms need a blast also. They can't call on their own, so will get cold if the rest of the house heating is off also, it's unlikely you want the bathrooms heated with the rest of the house off.

The other issue that is discussed is the need to have at least one heatsink open at all times, to prevent a closed system while the bpukervand circulation pump are operating, which might happen in error if a zone relay sticks closed, or all TRVs close but for some reason the operating receiver remains in call fir heat.

TheSunIsShining

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123621703#Comment_123621703

Fair point. So bloody complicated. Realised now too that each of the towel rails is installed as dual fuel - but when you want to switch to the summer element you're supposed to close off one of the valves so if I want to keep one of the rails open as the failsafe for the circuit I can't use the element for summer time.

And what then if you decide to keep the zones separate and don't lock all the valves open and use the existing 3 thermostats as a slave to each TRV calling for heat? There's no open rad then on the ground floor as the ensuites and bathroom are upstairs - is that dangerous? I always thought there was a connection between the hot water circuit by the immersion and the heating zone on that floor - is that not the equivalent of an open rad or is that actually supposed to be the open rad version of the hot water circuit?

And if I did lock open all the valves? It's a 3 story house right. So always having water circulate across all the system is going to use up quite a bit of energy no?

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123621902#Comment_123621902

I wouldn't worry about the dual power rails. The electric side will have thermostat switches, they'll just stay off if already heated from the boiler. Turning off is more about not leaking expensive electric sourced heat back into the CH circuit.

You could lock open just the one zone with the towel rails, to give you a permanent bypass. There's no need for a bypass on each of the zones. When all 4 zone valves are closed, the circuit is closed anyway, so really the bypass on a valves S plan system should be at the boiler, usually a small bore connection across hot flow and return. You might already have this.

Losses through locked-open zone valves will be non existent if all it's TRVs are closed, and trivial if the open zone has a towel rail. All heat 'lost' actually stays indoors anyway.

TheSunIsShining

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123626453#Comment_123626453

Thanks as always! The set-up in the house will be:

Ground floor - all rads with Smart TRVs and the wireless thermostat to simply get better temp reading. The TRVs call back to the wired thermostat in the hall and this then makes the actual call for heat to the boiler through the SL engaging. That wired thermostat is also the thermostat for the hall radiator. No bypass on this circuit.

First floor - 4 radiators with smart TRVs and wireless thermostat to get better temp reading. Same scenario - the TRVs call back to the wired thermostat in the landing and this then makes the actual call for heat through the SL engaging. That wired thermostat is also the thermostat for the landing radiator. This floor has 2 towel rails which do not have TRVs so there is a bypass on this zone.

Second floor - 2 radiators with smart TRVs - 1 wireless thermostat to get better temperature reading. The wired thermostat for this zone used be on the second floor landing which doesn't have a radiator so I actually moved it to one of the bedrooms. The single TRV in the other room, which has it's wireless thermostat for better temperature reading, calls to that wired thermostat to engage the SL for call to the boiler. That wired thermostat is also the temperature reading thermostat for the TRV in that room (same as the hallway and first floor landing set up).

So I think you're suggesting locking open either the first floor or second floor valve so that it serves as the permanent bypass. I could still get TRVs put on 2 of the 3 ensuite/bathroom rails I suppose but I'm sending from you that you reckon it's not worth it....

And finally the fourth zone is the HW zone. But this is controlled off a Sonoff probe thermostat on an automatic cycle to respond to water dropping below target temperature. I was the set-up where it turned out that the second floor and the HW SL were wired together in the junction box next to the cylinder so it was problematic to make the call on whether to go Tado HW control or Sonoff. I went Sonoff in the end as I can see the temperature etc. Although it does mean there's two apps.

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123629303#Comment_123629303

I wouldn't fret too much. Zones are completely closed in a S plan zoned system, so the bypass only exists while the zone was called. Installing TRVs won't affect this, and if it's been working trouble free up to now, then that sshouldn't do alter much. You might already have a bypass plumbed at the boiler. I can't recall if you posted images on previous posts, it's difficult to search on boards, but I recall a boiler room image of a posters zoned system with the telltale small bore loop, I don't remember if this was yours.

My only advise about full TRV installation is the circulation pump, and the possibly of having only a single rad as the load, with a standard pump running at greater than necessary fixed speed with higher pressure. Apart from noise and extra pressure on the pump, you will have higher flow return temperature while this solo rad is open, it won't have sufficient cooling effect on the hot flow, and the higher return flow will not be ideal for condensing boiler efficiency, with perhaps boiler cycling occurring. Gas boilers are usually fitted with a flow return thermostat to counter this, and if the circulation pump is integrated, it may well have pressure sensir control. Oil boilers afaik generally just have a limit stat when circuit cooling is less than boiler output. A tweak for this is to set the boiler flow temperature lower, to aid lo demand efficiency, but at the risk of slower home heat up response in full demand situations, like arriving home to a cold house in away mode. The upside will be more accurate management of individual room temperature, and some reduction in consumption by not heating particular areas excessively when not in use. Tado system will helpfully send you a report of your improved efficiency if it detects more efficient use based on heating cycles per device. I tend to just check the dates that I have to call the oilman for a fill, to see if its stretched by a few weeks.

There's some techie papers out there on this pump pressure factor, I linked them before, but a simple improvement is an electronic circulation pump with automatic flow rate detection and control

TheSunIsShining

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123629358#Comment_123629358

Have you thought of a full time career as a Heating Engineer?! Anyway. There's a new boiler gone in, Ideal Vogue Max and the install instructions say:

"1.13 BOILER CONTROL INTERLOCKS

Central heating systems controls should be installed to ensure the boiler is switched off when there is no demand for heating, in compliance with Building Regulations.

Heating systems utilising full thermostatic radiator valve control of temperature in individual rooms should also be fitted with a room thermostat controlling the temperature in a space served by radiators not fitted with such a valve.

When thermostatic radiator valves are used, the space heating temperature control over a living / dining area or hallway having a heating requirement of at least 10% of the minimum boiler heat output should be achieved using a room thermostat, whilst other rooms are individually controlled by thermostatic radiator valves.

However, if the system employs thermostatic radiator valves on all radiators, or two port valves, then a bypass circuit external to the boiler must be fitted with an automatic bypass valve to ensure a flow of water should all valves be in the closed position."

I'm away for a few days but the out of focus pics sent to me from home don't seem to show a bypass valve. I should have fecking looked into it when we got the boiler installed as I assume it would have cost virtually nothing to get it done at the time. But, if there isn't one installed, I think I'm looking at keeping at least the first floor zone with the 2 towel rads locked open - maybe even the second floor zone to bring it up to 3 open rails. Locking both open would actually mean that if a single radiator called for heat there would be 1 open radiator and 3 towel rails at all times. And as there are obviously long runs from the boiler to the second floor I assume the return temp should drop a little. But maybe the Vogue Max has the pressure sensor you mentioned but as it says there's a need for a bypass valve maybe it doesn't.

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123631300#Comment_123631300

I don't know why I find the Fr. Ted style expletive over a missed boiler install detail so funny, (I can just hear Crilly lambasting Dougal for the oversight...), but you couldn't have known, and the boiler lads just see a 4 zone S plan with no TRVs, smart or manual. The installation advice re the TRVs would refer to passive mechanical ones, which don't inform the system they are closing, so in this case the boiler could fire from a thermostat or timer call only to open a valve to a full set of closed TRVs on warm days like the ones we're having,

Smart TRVs do inform the zone thermostat when they're off, and when they're all off, the stat electrical relay will open, causing its respective zone valve to close. The stat relay Switched Live voltage is not connected to the boiler, only to it's Zone valve. The zone valve has a second relay, which only actuates when the zone valve motor is powered and turns the valve port open. At the end of this rotation, a cam strikes a relay switch button and presses it, sending a seperate SL to the boiler trigger terminal. There is no situation other than a convoluted fault were the boiler will fire until one or more zone valves are open, and this will only happen when one or more TRVs opens and informs the zone stat to fire away.

Notwithstanding this, if you want a bypass at the boiler, I reckon the boiler installers will go easy if asked to strap a short piece of 15mm pipe and a flow adjustment valve across the flow and return lines. They've already done well in the install of your new boiler, and no doubt you'll be having it serviced by them. Just explain your intentions to fit a full set of smart TRVs and your concern over the boiler instructions. That should cancel the Ted moment.

I've done my full time career, nearly 5 years into my pension. I wouldn't be up for the world of paid work anymore, I'm half bolloxed as it is from prossie radiotherapy/hormone treatment. That's enough plumbing issues to keep me occupied until the auld system reboots. Best of luck, I'll read a bit now, Tado says its 27.2° in the room, too warm for sleep.