Home heating automation

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121492265#Comment_121492265

So there's a permanent live and a switched live to the boiler, which makes sense. All you've got to do is copy these to the hive, both Ns to N, the Brown and Black live to permanent L , and the other Brown to 4, Heating on. It's a bit confusing with the permanent live coming in on Black. You'd expect Brown/Blue in from the switch board, connected to Brown/Blue back out to the boiler, always on power, the a switched live out on the black wire. At least there's no live being sent on a green/yellow.

gillamandango

Many thanks again for your help.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121492384#Comment_121492384

Yellow_Fern

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121478273#Comment_121478273

This is very helpful. I think the Climote was installed in place of a three channel EPH controller. The EvoHome is very complicated but it seems to have a lot more controllability if it can deal with two zones and works offline. I would be handy enough so if I could I manage a DIY install and just connect it to the two zones and ignore the rads for the time being, would that work?

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121496640#Comment_121496640

Yes, but if you just use any decent smart system as named earlier to run your three zones, you'll get close to the same results as using an OT boiler control. Tado in particular mimics boiler boiler modulation, by responding to heat calls with three different levels of firing intensity, a type of pulse modulation, so as a room approaches temperature it modulates the boiler firing, slowing the rate if delivery of heat, which has the effect of maintaining the desired temperature with a lower flow temperature.

Tado also uses local weather conditions and outside temperatures as supplied online by Accuweather, to adjust the delivery rate of heat, so its effectively like having an outside sensor fitted. The only thing it can't do is adjust or limit the max flow temperature of your boiler, but you can set this yourself, to limit excessive flow temperatures and lack of condenser heat recovery, while at the same time having enough headroom in your system to maintain set temperature during cold external temperatures.

I've read somewhere that development of Evo is stalled, there's been no innovation or upgrades of the hardware or software for some time. There had been a few posters here hoing back who were heavily invested in it, but its been a while since I've seen it mentioned.

FastFullBack

Hey,

I'm in the process of building a house with Geo Thermal heating system, heat pump and under floor heating ground and 1st floor. I dont know much yet about which model of heat pump we'll have, but just wondering if people with similar setup have any smart heating controls and thermostat etc you use?

Thanks

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121606117#Comment_121606117

You can install a Tado wired stat to each UFH zone valve for €100 a go from Screwfix currenty, with a master wireless stat receiver and internet bridge, a bargain at only €111, call to the heatpump for any UFH zone. Trivial cost in terms of what you're probably paying for the geothermal heatpump and UFH install.

FastFullBack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121606284#Comment_121606284

Thanks for that. And do you think there is a benefit to having smart controls with UFH, where by it's nature it's going to be a lot slower changing e.g. in winter it will be pretty much always on at maybe 21 C in living spaces and 19 C in bedrooms.

In that case where changes are in-frequent is there really a benefit to making it smart?

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121606731#Comment_121606731

Tado assert that their stats can operate with UFH. In terms of smarts, the away mode is useful for saving, as is open window detection, infinitely variable zone schedules, very fine control of specified temperature, and outside temperature compensation. Also, a separate HW timer is available on the wireless starter kit if your heatpump has a HW specific calling mode (higher flow temp required) and you have a HW cylinder.

You'll need to know how many individual wall thermostatically controlled zones you have, and cost each one in comparison to the model the UFH installers might use. Unless they use a really cheap mechanical stat or a basic digital electronic stat, they'll still be spending in the region of €80 to 100 for decent units, which may only be manually and locally programmable, if even that. Tado state that their stats can learn the response profiles of the heating system they control, and thus adjust 'firing' times and intensity to get optimum heating with minimal lag or overshoot.

The only significant difference that I can think of is that none of the smarter stats can accommodate an underfloor temperature sensor in addition to the wall air temperature sensor. The Heatmiser range do have this facility, if your UFH installers are believers in its usefulness. I'm inclined to think its use is limited to preventing overheating of the floor surface. You can ask your installers what they think.

FastFullBack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121606914#Comment_121606914

Thank you so much for that detail. I've just asked my builder whats the standard Thermostat they use with Geo/UFH, so once I know that I research and compare some more to Tado and others. I'm also for going Smart controls, I just want to make sure there is value in it. I'll probably be back with more questions

Fishy1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121402422#Comment_121402422

@deezell Just wanted to thank you for all the advice. We finally got our Drayton Kit3 set up today & it’s working really well. So handy to be able to control everything from the app!

Thanks so much, you’ve made it all so easy for us 😊

shanec1928

our apt manual timer no longer works on click so time for an upgrade. We have two zones and hot water I believe. Although think one of the actuator valves is broken. No thermostats or anything like that. Just want to be able to have something that connects to WiFi and we can remotely turn on the heat. Think the hive will do.or am I completely wrong? https://www.screwfix.ie/p/hive-mini-wireless-heating-hot-water-smart-thermostat-white-grey/901pv

pictures of our system there’s another circulating pump in the boiler house.

jymian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447217#Comment_121447217

Here’s one of those refugees 🙂 I have a standard Irish system: a system boiler, and 3 zones. There are 3 pumps, one for each zone.The central heating ones (upstairs and downstairs) are linked directly to wired thermostats (EPH ones). 

Tado operates under the assumption that there will only ever be two zones: heat (CH) and hot water (HW). What I think I understand, if I wanted to replace Climote with Tado, is that the recommendations are:

• keep the Climote, set the upstairs to 100% on, and use TRVs on each rad to hook up with the Tado system
• get a plumber to remove the upstairs zone/integrate it with the downstairs zone

Is that about right? Is there a way to replace the Climote with a wall switch that I could use to turn the upstairs zone on or off? Randomly pulling keywords from various other posts (like this one: https://community.tado.com/en-gb/discussion/comment/28379/#Comment_28379), is that basically asking a professional to permanently bridge the zones on the controller?

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121649886#Comment_121649886

As your system is pumped, with no zone valves and associated relays, I'm wondering how your boiler is fired independently when each zone requires heat, or is it the case that there is just a single timed schedule for the boiler, and the individual pumped zones are just switched in and out during this event, either by that wall switch with the hieroglyphs on the labels, and also by the two CH EPH zone wall stats. You have a Climote in this mix also. Did you originally have an EPH three zone controller replaced by the Climote? Do you have any kind of wiring unit or switch box? Do you program all three zones on the climote to time the zones individually, but only one of them fires the boiler? It's a bit of a dogs dinner at the moment. If you originally had an EPH 3 zone controller, this may have had a gravity mode switch which would at least allowed the HW zone to call the boiler without either CH zone operating, and the either CH zone could also call the boiler by firing it from the HW terminal, while using their own terminals just to power their zone pumps via the wall stats. Perhaps you only had a single rotary notch timer prior to the Climote, which is more likely in a pumped zone installation. Then you just timed the boiler, and manually switch selected which zones you wanted served.

jymian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121652554#Comment_121652554

That makes me feel better about not understanding it, honestly! 🙂 We inherited the system when we moved in, but it looks like it was done in the last 7 years. Based on manuals I found lying around, I think an EPH R37-HW 3 Zone Programmer was replaced by the Climote. Again with the "I think" caveat, you're right that the Climote sets a timed schedule for the boiler, and the pumps are activated by the thermostats, so it both conditions are true (the boiler is timed to on, and the stats say it's too cold) then the boiler fires and the pumps get pumping. But, it works per zone too, though: if the upstairs zone is timed to on, and the thermostat trips, then the boiler fires, and ditto for the downstairs. The boiler is an Ideal Vogue s18, btw.

I haven't been able to locate a single switch box, but this is what the wiring that I can see looks like: the top grey box goes to the upstairs and HW pumps, the bottom to the downstairs pump.

Sounds like it might be time to call in the professionals, yeah?

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121652728#Comment_121652728

Not so fast. I see three motorised valves, so it looks like you have a proper S- plan system where each zone is independently available to heat, HW, and both CH. The Cimote has three zone relays, with a thermostat included on board for the main CH zone. Is this wired anywhere like the front hall or living space, or is it fitted exactly where the old EPH 3 zone was. Which is where exactly.

jymian

It's probably exactly where the old one was, which is in the utility room, directly opposite the boiler. The thermostats are in the hall, and the upstairs landing. Oh, and thanks for all the work you do answering these comments in multiple threads @deezell - I really appreciate it!

Edited to add pic: boiler on the right, Climote on the left (behind the Eddi), door to garage in the middle, main fusebox on the top left.

deezell

In that case the three separate zone wires to the 3 zone valves are there. All you need is a two wireless thermostat system with HW. Either the Drayton wiser Kit 3 with a three zone receiver and two wireless stats, or the Hive CH+HW kit with one wireless stat, receiver and internet hub, plus add on Hive CH only hubless kit. The two small Hive receivers ,(or the Drayton receiver), sit together in place of the Climote. You leave the EPH wall stats and turn them up full, the 2 wireless stats now control each CH zone, and them and HW from the app. Its diy-able, or short work for a sparks.

shanec1928

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121644418#Comment_121644418

Am I missing anything here before I pull the trigger on the hive, or is there a better solution that I can\ should use? Thanks

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121658064#Comment_121658064

You can also use Tado, with one wireless and one wired stat. The wireless connects to one of the CH wires from the Climote, the living area. The wired replaces the upstairs wired stat. The upstairs (bed) wire in the climote goes to permanent live.

Tado don't have a dual CH receiver like Hive, and can currently have only one wireless CH receiver in a home system.

shanec1928

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121658335#Comment_121658335

Cheers bungalow so all one level and no wired stats, unless I add a wired stat which could be done handy enough. hive will do the job so. cheers

WildCardDoW

Fair play deezell.

Wonder how many Irish homes have been upgraded correctly because of you - SEAI should pay you haha.

comete

Trying to replace my timed switch with a hive single channel receiver, receiver powering up, but not switching boiler on when activated.

Pics of existing setup and wiring:

I moved Live In and Neutral wires from the switch to L and N of the hive back plate, and moved Live Out to terminal 3 per the following:

Is there something I’m missing to get it firing up the boiler?

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121692241#Comment_121692241

Loop L to common.

And check if there is a need for earth to be installed, but I think you're OK without it in this case (as the origional timer is double-isolated and so should the Hive).

deezell

A jumper wire from live in to Common. This is hard wired in the mechanical timer.

The relay in the hive is a two pole volt free. You supply live to the Com terminal, and it is switched from Normally Closed (NC) to Normally Open (NO).

comete

Thanks both, will try again tomorrow!

comete

That worked a charm, thanks a million!

manutd

Looking to replace a broken apt timer, only 1 zone oil burner. Looking for on/off with wifi enabled timer.

Will this work https://www.electricalwholesaler.ie/Products/Solar-Heating-Safety/HeatersHeatingControlsHandDryers/TimeclocksHeatControls/OPSBWF01/

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121695738#Comment_121695738

Yes, it will work. Just €79 with vat. You can get similar on Amazon for a lot less. https://amzn.eu/d/cRtgnji.

This from Micksgarage would work also by putting your boiler on a three pin plug, though that would be frowned on as it's a fixed device.

https://www.micksgarage.com/d/connected-home/products/3827249/tp-link-tapo-p100-mini-smart-wifi-socket

copacetic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121606731#Comment_121606731

We have heatmiser zoned system with ufh and it’s great, we don’t do anything ‘smart ‘ with it like you say it’s pretty much set and forget, however you will find you wan to easily adjust it from time to time as the hours you are using house or seasons change, or you have the windows open in summer and don’t we want to trigger heating etc. its much easier via the app than via each stat. The you can also fiddle with things like pre heat etc etc. the key thing for use was to have a few zones though for the ufh for the different temp rooms downstairs. Then we treat upstairs as just one zone which is all rads. And the hot water as another. We also use extra rf temp monitors to average out the temp that triggers some of the not ideally located stats. We seldom use google to control the heating jn a ‘smart way’ but I use the app now and then. The rest if the family never touch a stat or the app, it just runs away in the background.

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121697303#Comment_121697303

Yes. If you have a reasonably well located set of thermostats, 2-4 zones or more, it's set and forget, same settings summer and winter, the zones will all stay 'off' in the summer as the temperature remains above the set schedules, day and night. Come autumn, they gradually kick in.

Its hard to convince timer centric users who insist on an on/off timed schedule, even though they have zone thermostats. Its like they don't trust the stat to do the off bit, especially when you can schedule different temperatures at different times of day or night, as well as Away mode when no-one is around. They prefer running around on cold days increasing the number of ON notches, then switching them off in summer.

There are even electronic wall thermostats with a virtual rotary notched dial. Climote looked like that, it's built in actual thermostat with only a single temperature for all timed notches just replicated old mechanical systems, and the climote installers invariably installed it in the utility room, hot press, boiler room, and in one case posted on boards, inside the boiler casing! This renderered the thermostatic control useless, so the system either overheated or underheated the home depending on the season, weather and timer segments.

Smart stats work, even on slow response UFH, no tweaking required.